Meadowhall Station- Theoretical

[Iskra]

Theoretically (as I'm already engaged on another project), I was thinking how you would best model Meadowhall station? It seems an interesting project with a decent variety of workings and traction depending on the era, plus the option of including trams in a prototypical setting, it's quite an unusual layout too.

 

Would you do it as an end to end or as a pair of loops that converge (other options are available)? How would you integrate a fiddle yard that could generate enough interesting workings? How would you achieve this in a limited space?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mdvle]

54 minutes ago, Iskra said:

Theoretically (as I'm already engaged on another project), I was thinking how you would best model Meadowhall station? It seems an interesting project with a decent variety of workings and traction depending on the era, plus the option of including trams in a prototypical setting, it's quite an unusual layout too.

 

Given that most won't know this station, what makes it interesting?  A quick look and I see a station built in 1990, so a bunch of multiple unit workings I am guessing which doesn't sound that interesting.

 

Trams don't really add much interest - really just yet another multiple unit just of a different shape.

 

54 minutes ago, Iskra said:

Would you do it as an end to end or as a pair of loops that converge (other options are available)? How would you integrate a fiddle yard that could generate enough interesting workings? How would you achieve this in a limited space?

 

Depends on the compromise - the angle between platform pairs is such that you really can't model it (junctions are inherently a problem in model terms) at its 45 degree angle so you are looking at modelling on pair or the other (or including the other set as "dummies").  At which point it just becomes another through station.

 

Unless, as asked above, there is something really unique about this station that sets it apart?

[LBRJ]

I think, at short notice, that  I would want to do it in N gauge!

Given the large disparity in traffic between the "mainline" and the "Barnsley branch" I would have the mainline as part of a typical roundy type layout with the Fiddle Yard/storage sidings to the rear.

I would just run the "via Barnsley" trains into a couple of dead end sidings...

[Iskra]

48 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

Given that most won't know this station, what makes it interesting?  A quick look and I see a station built in 1990, so a bunch of multiple unit workings I am guessing which doesn't sound that interesting.

 

Trams don't really add much interest - really just yet another multiple unit just of a different shape.

 

 

Depends on the compromise - the angle between platform pairs is such that you really can't model it (junctions are inherently a problem in model terms) at its 45 degree angle so you are looking at modelling on pair or the other (or including the other set as "dummies").  At which point it just becomes another through station.

 

Unless, as asked above, there is something really unique about this station that sets it apart?

 

It does of course depend on what interests you. It's a busy station, that (currently) features a wide variety of Northern and TP DMU's, XC 220/221's, XC and EMR HST's (and 222's on Summer Saturdays), freight, charters, railtours and NR trains (some hauled by 20's/37's/6X's). In days gone by there was more variety. It also has freight loops to the west of the station and trams too. Some modellers may also apply Rule 1, which would of course increase the scope further. If it's not your scene that's fine. 

 

It's a bit different as it has platforms on both arms of the converging junction. Obviously, it is not totally unique as there are thousands of stations and thousands of junctions. Shipley wins the platform/junction competition and even that isn't unique.

 

42 minutes ago, LBRJ said:

I think, at short notice, that  I would want to do it in N gauge!

Given the large disparity in traffic between the "mainline" and the "Barnsley branch" I would have the mainline as part of a typical roundy type layout with the Fiddle Yard/storage sidings to the rear.

I would just run the "via Barnsley" trains into a couple of dead end sidings...

 

Thank you for a very sensible answer.

Edited June 22, 2020 by Iskra

[mdvle]

3 minutes ago, Iskra said:

It does of course depend on what interests you. It's a busy station, that (currently) features a wide variety of Northern and TP DMU's, XC 220/221's, XC and EMR HST's, freight and NR trains. In days gone by there was more variety. It also has freight loops to the west of the station and trams too. Some modellers may also apply Rule 1, which would of course increase the scope further. If it's not your scene that's fine. 

 

It's not so much as to whether it's my scene or not, but rather you haven't explained what makes this station interesting.  Given that there likely hundreds of stations just as busy (and from Wikipedia it is busy, albeit mostly local services and 2tp TransPennine Express).

 

Or to put it another way, what is the layout trying to achieve?  What is the priority?

 

If passenger stuff is your thing then the through line should be the emphasis - but maybe it is really the branch that interests you?  In which case the design focus, and decisions needed, change.  Perhaps it is a freight that uses the junction that really is the interesting thing here for example.

 

Similarly with scale, if contemplating something other than OO then one needs to again consider what it is that interests you.  If there is a particular class of stock that is a "must have" that is only available in OO (or conversely, perhaps in N) then that will guide the design decisions.

 

3 minutes ago, Iskra said:

It's a bit different as it has platforms on both arms of the converging junction. Obviously, it is not totally unique as there are thousands of stations and thousands of junctions. Shipley wins the platform/junction competition and even that isn't unique.

 

If the driving issue in this theoretical layout is the layout, then the question becomes how much compromise is acceptable.

 

As noted by LBRJ if you are looking to make it as accurate as possible (ie. it has to be the 45 degrees) then you are really looking at going to N, at which point you can likely pretty much do it to scale assuming a reasonable room/shed - unless of course you have a very big space and are willing to accept the hassles of a larger scale.

 

Which again is a long way of saying, what are you looking for in this theoretical layout?  What drives the interest in choosing it over somewhere else, what is important vs not important, etc.

[Wheatley]

Assuming a rectangular space then the most space-efficient shape is a long oval for the main line with a shorter oval inside it for the branch, with a shared fiddle yard along the other long edge. Assuming you view it from the inside you will be looking down the hillside from Tyler St across to the shopping centre. 

 

If you dont have space then everything which goes through Meadowhall also goes through Brightside a few yards further south, and a derelict station would be different !

[Iskra]

39 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

It's not so much as to whether it's my scene or not, but rather you haven't explained what makes this station interesting.  Given that there likely hundreds of stations just as busy (and from Wikipedia it is busy, albeit mostly local services and 2tp TransPennine Express).

 

Or to put it another way, what is the layout trying to achieve?  What is the priority?

 

If passenger stuff is your thing then the through line should be the emphasis - but maybe it is really the branch that interests you?  In which case the design focus, and decisions needed, change.  Perhaps it is a freight that uses the junction that really is the interesting thing here for example.

 

Similarly with scale, if contemplating something other than OO then one needs to again consider what it is that interests you.  If there is a particular class of stock that is a "must have" that is only available in OO (or conversely, perhaps in N) then that will guide the design decisions.

 

 

If the driving issue in this theoretical layout is the layout, then the question becomes how much compromise is acceptable.

 

As noted by LBRJ if you are looking to make it as accurate as possible (ie. it has to be the 45 degrees) then you are really looking at going to N, at which point you can likely pretty much do it to scale assuming a reasonable room/shed - unless of course you have a very big space and are willing to accept the hassles of a larger scale.

 

Which again is a long way of saying, what are you looking for in this theoretical layout?  What drives the interest in choosing it over somewhere else, what is important vs not important, etc.

 

I did explain it, just not in the verbose detail you desired  I assumed that on an internet rail forum most readers would have a basic knowledge of the railway and/or the internet at their finger tips. As explained, IC services do pass through too and have previously called there. I find it of interest, if you don't that's fine. A couple of other things driving my interest are; that it's fairly local for me, it hasn't to my knowledge been modelled before, the juxtaposition of Northern post-industrial grime and 'modern' redevelopment.

 

The priority for me would be to attempt to run a vaguely realistic timetable, including the through trains with a representative selection of stock, ie there would need to be enough Northern DMU types to convincingly represent the wide variety within the Northern DMU fleet, not just the same 158 doing laps for example and these would obviously need to be accommodated somewhere.

 

OO is my preferred scale, but this would obviously be much easier in N and I wouldn't rule N out completely, providing reasonably realistic rolling stock could be portrayed. Compromise is an option; if the exact angle of the Barnsley branch is slightly off that's okay by me, it is just a portrayal of a location not an exact replica to me and a little artistic license would be okay. I have one room that measures approx 18ft x 12ft, although as said I wasn't planning on making it at this point, just seeing how other people would approach it at this stage.

 

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by Iskra

[Iskra]

18 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

Assuming a rectangular space then the most space-efficient shape is a long oval for the main line with a shorter oval inside it for the branch, with a shared fiddle yard along the other long edge. Assuming you view it from the inside you will be looking down the hillside from Tyler St across to the shopping centre. 

 

If you dont have space then everything which goes through Meadowhall also goes through Brightside a few yards further south, and a derelict station would be different !

 

That could work thank you.

 

That is very true! 

[mdvle]

3 hours ago, Iskra said:

I did explain it, just not in the verbose detail you desired  I assumed that on an internet rail forum most readers would have a basic knowledge of the railway and/or the internet at their finger tips.

 

If you look at the more successful threads in this section you will see that the one thing they have in common is that the person posting and asking for help/ideas provides a reasonable amount of information about what they want to achieve, what their priorities are.

 

Despite your assumptions, there are over 2,500 stations in the UK and I doubt anybody on here knows anywhere near a fraction of them - and, given you are the one asking for help, it is rather rude and presumptuous that you expect those who might help you to spend some of their time doing research when you simply could have provided the summary of the information in the first place.

 

3 hours ago, Iskra said:

As explained, IC services do pass through too and have previously called there. I find it of interest, if you don't that's fine. A couple of other things driving my interest are; that it's fairly local for me, it hasn't to my knowledge been modelled before, the juxtaposition of Northern post-industrial grime and 'modern' redevelopment.

 

See, this is important - so your interest extends beyond just the trains.  The question is, does a model of a recent-ish train station achieve that juxtaposition for you - or would you be better off finding a different station that might say offer an old station with newer development, or a new station with older buildings surrounding it.  Or does the desire to model something local cause the other want to be discarded, given that the satellite photos seems to show a 1990s station surrounded (in the immediate, might be on the layout area) new stuff?

 

3 hours ago, Iskra said:

The priority for me would be to attempt to run a vaguely realistic timetable, including the through trains with a representative selection of stock, ie there would need to be enough Northern DMU types to convincingly represent the wide variety within the Northern DMU fleet, not just the same 158 doing laps for example and these would obviously need to be accommodated somewhere.

 

My superficial understanding of N is that you are unlikely to get the variety of DMU types you want, which is (as will be seen soon) unfortunate.

 

But the desire to run a realistic timetable does, as you say, give us some guidance on the size of fiddle yard necessary.

 

3 hours ago, Iskra said:

OO is my preferred scale, but this would obviously be much easier in N and I wouldn't rule N out completely, providing reasonably realistic rolling stock could be portrayed. Compromise is an option; if the exact angle of the Barnsley branch is slightly off that's okay by me, it is just a portrayal of a location not an exact replica to me and a little artistic license would be okay. I have one room that measures approx 18ft x 12ft, although as said I wasn't planning on making it at this point, just seeing how other people would approach it at this stage.

 

So, real thing, measured from the extreme end of the branch platform to the building between the tram and driveway is around 480', or just over 6' in OO (this of course is the problem with junctions - they gobble up space).

 

Your room is big enough that this isn't insurmountable, though the immediate question becomes where do you want to view/operate your trains from.  Normally the obvious choice is inside the room, with the layout on the wall, which would be say Tyler St. per the suggestion by Wheatley.  But even if we fudge things and bring both sets of platforms closer to the inside of the Y (how close could you accept them being before it no longer looks like Meadowhall to you?) you are still looking at a large distance.  Is it acceptable when operating your trains that they could be 3' to 4' away from you when stopping at the main platforms?  Or would you prefer a different viewpoint?  You could operate from inside the Y, though that leaves you a long distance away from the turnouts.  Alternately you could operate from the shopping centre side, which keeps you close to the turnouts and the main platforms (and perhaps the trams if you operate those as well) at the expense of being further away from the branch trains and forcing the layout into the middle of the room.

 

Another possibility, if you don't mind having no backdrop for the branch, would be to have the branch as a peninsula and then you could operate from either Tyler Street or the inside of the Y depending on how you felt on any given day.

 

Another choice, though it really destroys the look of the station, would be to go from 45 degrees to say 15 degrees, that allows you to keep the 2 sets of platforms close together - but this, while solving many of the access issues, really changes it more into a 4 track station with the "junction" past the station instead of before.  But if the operations are the most important thing, it does still give you that.

 

(some though should perhaps go into what scenery you want to include, and if that influences where the operator can stand - is there a particular backdrop that is a must have).

[Wheatley]

I read the OP as "How would you do it ?" not "do you think it's worth doing ?". I assumed the answer to the second one was at least "maybe" otherwise why post ?

 

Anyway, I'll just leave this here.

 

[cypherman]

Hi all,

just out of interest a quick question about this station. Is it Meadowhall in Sheffield.

[Iskra]

On 23/06/2020 at 09:32, Wheatley said:

I read the OP as "How would you do it ?" not "do you think it's worth doing ?". I assumed the answer to the second one was at least "maybe" otherwise why post ?

 

Anyway, I'll just leave this here.

 

 

Very nice! So much atmosphere going on there. 

Edited July 18, 2020 by Iskra

[Iskra]

On 10/07/2020 at 17:56, cypherman said:

Hi all,

just out of interest a quick question about this station. Is it Meadowhall in Sheffield.

 

Yes, it is.

[cheesysmith]

The old meadowhall from steam days would be a lot more interesting.

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=53.41933&lon=-1.41613&layers=168&b=1

 

Although it was wincobank jcn then. Meadowhall was actually a station on the GC barnsley branch (as can be seen in the link above). As to more interesting, you have the present jcn to the south from the barnsley branch, plus a jcn to the north towards rotherham/holmes, with the GC at a lower level going under them, and a link line between the twopassing through the present station site.

Edited July 25, 2020 by cheesysmith

[Iskra]

On 25/07/2020 at 20:17, cheesysmith said:

The old meadowhall from steam days would be a lot more interesting.

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=53.41933&lon=-1.41613&layers=168&b=1

 

Although it was wincobank jcn then. Meadowhall was actually a station on the GC barnsley branch (as can be seen in the link above). As to more interesting, you have the present jcn to the south from the barnsley branch, plus a jcn to the north towards rotherham/holmes, with the GC at a lower level going under them, and a link line between the twopassing through the present station site.

 

Wow, that's really interesting, thank you for sharing. I am relatively new to the Sheffield area, so that is all news to me!