Mainline 2213

[Clearwater]

Hi

i have a tender body from a Mainline 2251 currently numbered 2213.  Can I confirm from the assembled expert the type of tender it is?  I think it is the Dean 3500g though happy to be corrected? If I’m not correct, grateful if those who know could point out to me what the things I need to be looking for to make a correct identification.  Assuming it is Dean, do people know if the comet Dean tender chassis is a good fit?  I also have the body for which Im building the comet chassis.

 

i intend the loco to become a Stafford Road 1930s loco.  Judging by the excellent greatwestern.org.uk website, 2256 fits my purposes.  From new, would that have hauled a Dean tender?
 

thanks

 

David

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

Collett 3000 gallon.

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/no-tenders.html

 

When they copied 3205 it was the type that one had.

 

http://www.ten.rhrp.org.uk/tens/TenderInfo.asp?Ref=9

 

 

But I think most got Dean tenders from new.

 

 

The locomotives were built over a period of 18 years under 8 Lots as follows:

 

Lot   Numbers       Built           Original tender

261    2251-2270    1930       Dean/Churchward 3000g

283    2271-2280    1934       Dean/Churchward 3000g

298    2281-2290    1936       2281-86 - ROD 4000g

312    2291-9,2200 1938       Dean/Churchward 3000g

322    2201-2210    1939       Dean/Churchward 3000g

337    2211-2230     1940       Collett 3000g

347    2231-2250   1944-45   Collett 3000g

360    3200-3219    1946-48  Collett 3000g

 

Taken from the Brassmasters instructions.

 

http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/Downloads/2251 Instructions parts list diagrams.pdf

 

Jason

Edited June 22, 2020 by Steamport Southport

[Steamport Southport]

This is the type they commonly refer to as Dean 3000 gallon.

 

 

http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/gwr_dean_3000_gallon_tender.htm

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Coach bogie]

There is a view of 2257, the next number in the series on shed at Tysley in the early 30's.

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrt323.htm

 

It does show the small, narrow tender attached from new. The tenders were all second hand from withdrawn 4-4-0  and particularly Dean goods which the 2251 were replacements for.

 

One snag. The first 1930 lot, including your intended 2256, had a lever reverser, evident from the reversing rod flat on the top of the rear splasher. which was not replaced by the screw type, with the angled reversing rod (as Bachmann/Palitoy) until much later in the 1930's. Note also, the front of the cab does not have the additional vertical box which was part of the screw reverser.

 

 Mike Wiltshire

[JimC]

And in case its not already obvious from the foregoing, the first "Collett" 3,000 gallon tender was built in 1940. The easiest way to distinguish the later style tenders is that the coal raves continue at half height round the back of the tender, whereas on the earlier ones they stop before the back.
 

Swindon being Swindon though, tenders were mixed and matched and updated, so various combinations of features can be proved to have existed that were never built new!

[Clearwater]

On 23/06/2020 at 09:42, Coach bogie said:

There is a view of 2257, the next number in the series on shed at Tysley in the early 30's.

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrt323.htm

 

It does show the small, narrow tender attached from new. The tenders were all second hand from withdrawn 4-4-0  and particularly Dean goods which the 2251 were replacements for.

 

One snag. The first 1930 lot, including your intended 2256, had a lever reverser, evident from the reversing rod flat on the top of the rear splasher. which was not replaced by the screw type, with the angled reversing rod (as Bachmann/Palitoy) until much later in the 1930's. Note also, the front of the cab does not have the additional vertical box which was part of the screw reverser.

 

 Mike Wiltshire

thanks Mike - I’d missed that picture on my searches. Sounds like some plastic surgery is required then!
 

David

[Clearwater]

@Coach bogie Mike

Do you happen to know if someone makes an etch for a lever reverser?

Thanks

David

[Coach bogie]

Not a separate one from all the other stuff on the etch.  SEF/Dave Ellis should be able to supply the casting from the 1854 or ex Nucast panniers which is the same.( I checked Brassmasters and they do not list the reverser as a separate item.

 

A signal lever is not that different. I used a Ratio signal lever on mine based on Dean 2516 at Swindon.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Tim V]

I want one of those tender bodies - I have an earlier one I could swap with it!

Edited June 24, 2020 by Tim V

[Clearwater]

After a bit of hacking, drilling, swearing and filing, I think I’ve removed most of the former screw reverser.  Will rebuild with plasticard and hopefully post painting and squinting from a distance it will look ok!

 

 

[The Johnster]

Re 2251 tenders, at least 3 types were used with these locos, and it is entirely probable that they were swapped between locos at various times; a loco coming out of works would take the next suitable tender available in order to be put back to work earning revenue and not bay blocking in the works!  The bulk of the class seem to have had Dean/Churchward 3,000 gallon, a batch got ex ROD Great Central Robinson tenders, and all built after 1940 got Collett 3,000 gallon tenders of the type provided by Mainline.  The list provided by Brassmasters is correct for new builds, and can be relied on for each loco until it's first full 'Heavy General' overhaul, after which all bets are off.  It is not possible to work it out from overhaul frequencies unless you have the dates, either, as overhauls were done on an accrued mileage basis, so a loco that performed more long distance work would rack up mileage perhaps two or three years earlier than a branch line trip freight potterer about,

 

I would repeat the old advice that a photograph, verifiably dated, is the best reference but when this is not available one has to resort to guesstimation.  We know that 2256 was given a Dean/Churchward tender from a withdrawn loco (which could have been any number of classes) when it was new in 1930, and was allox Stafford Road, a big shed with a wide variety of duties.  If we assume that it was not overhauled until 1938, then we only know that it had that tender until this overhaul, but as no 2251 had yet been given a Collett tender because they weren't being built for another 2 years, we can reasonably extrapolate that this loco probably had a Dean/Churhward 3,000 gallon tender up to nationalisation at least, though may have had something else later in it's life.  So, if you are modelling the loco in a pre-nationalisation condition, you are on fairly safe ground with the Dean/Churchward 3,000 gallon.  My advice in lieu of photographs would be to model it in this condition pending the availability of better information, which you are unlikely to get over 90 years later!

 

Incidentally this tender was originally signed off by Dean, but as he was becoming increasingly ill, much of the actual design is Churchward's. and he used it on many of his own designs.  

[JimC]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

much of the actual design is Churchward's. and he used it on many of his own designs.  

I really can't see Churchward spending too much time personally worrying about tenders!  I've been through the register with the drawings, and I don't think the drawing office actually designed an *all* new tender after the 19thC.  Obviously there were a couple of major redesigns with new frames and tanks, but even in those cases an awful lot of the other components were the same as the previous lot. What you do see though, is more or less continuous change, with one drawing or another changed every few years, so between 1890 and  1950 pretty much every key drawing had changed at least once, some several times.