aquilla Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 Hi guys I have just purchased a new 158 and standard plux 22 non sound decoder all fitted and duly ran in. Now according to the supplied instructions the functions show f0 as lights..which function correctly. ..f1 directional lights off end a....correct...f2 directional lights off b end...correct....f3 pass compartment lights...incorrect..operates rear cab light ...f4 cab lights leading end..incorrect..operates passenger compartment lights...f5 door interlock lights...incorrect. .does nothing and f6. .directional light mode day/night..incorrect..operates door interlock lights. The instructions don't say how the dip switches should be set for dcc..but they are all in the on position. Is there something wrong here. Ta for any advice Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliepetty Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 (edited) I think the cab light functions don't operate how they should on a real unit, its not the decoder but I think a design error on the circuit board. As when we were programming the Legomanbiffo sound decoder, we found 'Issues' we did not expect from a high end model like this, but sadly we had to work round them and do the best given its limitations. Charlie DCKits-Legomanbiffo. Edited June 28, 2020 by charliepetty Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 (edited) There's no design error, the circuit board works as specified. i.e rear cab light is for train manager's use, can be on or off whether travelling or not. As Charlie says, this is controlled by the additional components on the PCB, no decoder can overcome this without changes to the PCB, so it's a specification decision that we probably have to live with. I would have liked to have the driver's cab light available and separately controlled too, but the specification prevents this, even though a decent decoder could have managed this quite easily on its own. But this is not the cause of aquilla's problem. The instructions give details of the Function Outputs which operate the described features. These are not the Key numbers on your handset (Function Keys) but numbers of the physical connections to the decoder. These are not necessarily the same number as the Function Outputs, so some of them are, coincidentally, the same and some are not. The instructions to which you refer could be clearer in this respect. To match the actual lighting features to the F keys you wish to operate them will, it seems, require some remapping. Not a problem to solve this if we know which decoder you have installed. If it's a Bachmann or ZIMO I can help, if it's some other brand, someone else will probably oblige. For DCC running, all dip switches should be left in the 'on' position (as delivered). The 'off' position is for turning lights off when on DC. Best regards, Paul Edited June 28, 2020 by pauliebanger 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquilla Posted June 30, 2020 Author Share Posted June 30, 2020 On 28/06/2020 at 22:43, pauliebanger said: There's no design error, the circuit board works as specified. i.e rear cab light is for train manager's use, can be on or off whether travelling or not. As Charlie says, this is controlled by the additional components on the PCB, no decoder can overcome this without changes to the PCB, so it's a specification decision that we probably have to live with. I would have liked to have the driver's cab light available and separately controlled too, but the specification prevents this, even though a decent decoder could have managed this quite easily on its own. But this is not the cause of aquilla's problem. The instructions give details of the Function Outputs which operate the described features. These are not the Key numbers on your handset (Function Keys) but numbers of the physical connections to the decoder. These are not necessarily the same number as the Function Outputs, so some of them are, coincidentally, the same and some are not. The instructions to which you refer could be clearer in this respect. To match the actual lighting features to the F keys you wish to operate them will, it seems, require some remapping. Not a problem to solve this if we know which decoder you have installed. If it's a Bachmann or ZIMO I can help, if it's some other brand, someone else will probably oblige. For DCC running, all dip switches should be left in the 'on' position (as delivered). The 'off' position is for turning lights off when on DC. Best regards, Paul Cheers for that and I would agree that Bachmann should of given the function keys numbers as there will probably be quite a few out there who would assume the same as I did. I have the Bachmann plux 22 decoder and use the nce powercab. I'm now quite used to the function numbers doing what they do, only 6 to remember, so all is well. Cheers guys. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliepetty Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 On 28/06/2020 at 22:43, pauliebanger said: There's no design error, the circuit board works as specified. i.e rear cab light is for train manager's use, can be on or off whether travelling or not. As Charlie says, this is controlled by the additional components on the PCB, no decoder can overcome this without changes to the PCB, so it's a specification decision that we probably have to live with. I would have liked to have the driver's cab light available and separately controlled too, but the specification prevents this, even though a decent decoder could have managed this quite easily on its own. But this is not the cause of aquilla's problem. The instructions give details of the Function Outputs which operate the described features. These are not the Key numbers on your handset (Function Keys) but numbers of the physical connections to the decoder. These are not necessarily the same number as the Function Outputs, so some of them are, coincidentally, the same and some are not. The instructions to which you refer could be clearer in this respect. To match the actual lighting features to the F keys you wish to operate them will, it seems, require some remapping. Not a problem to solve this if we know which decoder you have installed. If it's a Bachmann or ZIMO I can help, if it's some other brand, someone else will probably oblige. For DCC running, all dip switches should be left in the 'on' position (as delivered). The 'off' position is for turning lights off when on DC. Best regards, Paul The Plux 22 will work both front and rear cab lights independantly, with no issues. 'The circuit board works as specified' So it could have been 'Specified' in the design to do this ?? I call that a design error. Charlie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 2 hours ago, charliepetty said: The Plux 22 will work both front and rear cab lights independantly, with no issues. 'The circuit board works as specified' So it could have been 'Specified' in the design to do this ?? I call that a design error. Charlie Any decoder with enough function outputs is capable of that. PluX22 is irrelevant. It could have been specified to do this, yes. It's sad that is was not. But the circuit board achieves what was intended, what is stated in the instructions. The design of the circuit board, therefore, is correct. The issue is whether what was intended could have been improved if the designer had been given a different specification by whoever decided only the rear cab light should be illuminated. You can call it a design error as often as you wish, but that doesn't make it any truer than the first time you said it. It's clearly the case that you do not agree with the specification, the parameters which were given to the designer. If the design functions according to these, then there's no fault in the design. There's room to argue that the parameters, the specifications, which were laid out initially have turned out to be less than what could have been achieved. What are the other 'issues' and 'limitations' you have had to work around. Are you saying that the sound project you mention does not operate all the model's features as described in the instructions? What does not work? Best regards, Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliepetty Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 4 hours ago, pauliebanger said: Any decoder with enough function outputs is capable of that. PluX22 is irrelevant. It could have been specified to do this, yes. It's sad that is was not. But the circuit board achieves what was intended, what is stated in the instructions. The design of the circuit board, therefore, is correct. The issue is whether what was intended could have been improved if the designer had been given a different specification by whoever decided only the rear cab light should be illuminated. You can call it a design error as often as you wish, but that doesn't make it any truer than the first time you said it. It's clearly the case that you do not agree with the specification, the parameters which were given to the designer. If the design functions according to these, then there's no fault in the design. There's room to argue that the parameters, the specifications, which were laid out initially have turned out to be less than what could have been achieved. What are the other 'issues' and 'limitations' you have had to work around. Are you saying that the sound project you mention does not operate all the model's features as described in the instructions? What does not work? Best regards, Paul Everything that is designed to work, does work but surely it should be better. The Class 117 & 121 has both cab lights on or off at the same time, no conductor in those rear cabs as he has his own Brake Van. Do you know who designed the circuit boards on these three models, as I think you would agree, he needs serious advice. Charlie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, charliepetty said: Everything that is designed to work, does work but surely it should be better. The Class 117 & 121 has both cab lights on or off at the same time, no conductor in those rear cabs as he has his own Brake Van. Do you know who designed the circuit boards on these three models, as I think you would agree, he needs serious advice. Charlie Charlie, I've no idea who designed the circuit boards. I imagine it was the resident designer or design team in Kader's China factory. If so, he or she probably has never been to the UK let alone have personal knowledge of the inner workings of vintage UK DMUs lighting. Their design for the circuit board, therefore, can only be informed by the specification handed down to them. If it performs what has been specified, it is, by definition, good design. Could more features have been specified? Yes they probably could. But then we come into the cost/value area, decisions on which as you will know from your own experience, only the manufacturer can make. Would you or I have specified a different arrangement for the lighting functions? I think that's very likely if we were targetting DCC only, where the high functionality of top quality decoders could shine. But not everyone will wish to pay for high end decoders, and it seems to me that the board is capable of providing much more functionality for DC analogue users than that to which they are accustomed. Perhaps Bachmann are looking at a wider picture? If things aren't exactly 'correct' in our view, for many others they will be happy that Bachmann are raising the bar on functionality for them in the way they operate their models. We're not so far apart as it may seem, Charlie, but there is a big difference between providing a specification and designing product to meet those specifcations. Kind regards, Paul Edited July 4, 2020 by pauliebanger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YesTor Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 (edited) On 22/06/2020 at 22:17, aquilla said: Now according to the supplied instructions the functions show... f0 as lights..which function correctly. .. f1 directional lights off end a....correct.. .f2 directional lights off b end...correct.... f3 pass compartment lights... incorrect..operates rear cab light ... f4 cab lights leading end.. incorrect..operates passenger compartment lights... f5 door interlock lights... incorrect. .does nothing f6. .directional light mode day/night.. incorrect..operates door interlock lights. The instructions don't say how the dip switches should be set for dcc..but they are all in the on position. Is there something wrong here. Ta for any advice @pauliebanger @charliepetty Sorry to chime in here, but I'm planning on buying a couple of these units and am curious if the lighting functions are going to work properly. Please kindly correct me if I'm mistaken, but reading the OP from @aquilla above suggests that F3, F4, F5 & F6 do not operate as the instructions indicate? If this is the case then surely this alone suggests that something isn't quite right? Secondly, by looking at what each function F3, F4, F5 & F6 actually performs, as opposed to what the instructions indicate, leaves the questions: There appears to be no function for leading end cab light? There appears to be no control over day/night modes? What is the purpose of F5? Can someone clarify perhaps? thank you kindly... Al Edited July 4, 2020 by YesTor Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueeighties Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 Regardless of the where's and wherefores, in this day and age a brand new up to date model that has been designed with poorly functioning lights at these price points is just silly. Both interior cab lights should be capable of independent switching. It's purely down to sloppy design. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 Everything works as specified. Any mismatch between the written instructions and what appears to be happening is due to misunderstanding of what they say. The instructions are correct, but could have been made more clear. The numbers refer to Function Outputs (Aux), not the numbers of the buttons on your DCC controller. YesTor It's all to do with the function mapping. I've offered to help setting up for ZIMO equipped models, Bachmann by ZIMO included. Your questions: 1. That is correct. No forward cab light, train manager's rear cab light only. 2. Day and night mode are switchable by function key on DCC (F key 14 in the sound fitted model). 3. F5 can be for whatever you map to it. In the sound fitted version it's to change the acceleration and deceleration rates making it react to throttle changes more rapidly and engine sounds operate differently to match. Best regards Paul 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YesTor Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 4 hours ago, pauliebanger said: 1. That is correct. No forward cab light, train manager's rear cab light only. Okay, so I'm not sure if I'm missing something, but how do I switch on the forward cab light please? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Kaput Posted July 5, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 5, 2020 8 hours ago, YesTor said: Okay, so I'm not sure if I'm missing something, but how do I switch on the forward cab light please? You don't. Thats the point being made above, the model's PCB is specifically wired so the rear cab light comes on to simulate the guard doing his paperwork or some such. Only Bachmann know why they made it like that instead of fully independant. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueeighties Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 Most odd. Every other Bachmann locomotive/unit fitted with cab lights has them installed, and able to function at both ends. As per the prototype. Sloppy design. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YesTor Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 4 hours ago, Kaput said: You don't. Thats the point being made above, the model's PCB is specifically wired so the rear cab light comes on to simulate the guard doing his paperwork or some such. Only Bachmann know why they made it like that instead of fully independant. So the guard has a light in the rear cab, but there is no light in the front cab for the driver? So you literally cannot light up the front cab at all, for example when the train is in a station? If so, that's just weird and a tad useless? On 28/06/2020 at 21:43, charliepetty said: I think the cab light functions don't operate how they should on a real unit, its not the decoder but I think a design error on the circuit board. I think I'd have to agree in that surely no one would intentionally design the unit in this way? Is there a fix, ie. can the front light be mapped to a spare function? thanks Al Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Kaput Posted July 5, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 5, 2020 AFAIK its not a matter of functions, its how the PCB has been wired. I'd guess the only fix would be to disconnect the cab lights from the PCB and hardwire them directly to the decoder's function pads. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliepetty Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 23 hours ago, YesTor said: @pauliebanger @charliepetty Sorry to chime in here, but I'm planning on buying a couple of these units and am curious if the lighting functions are going to work properly. Please kindly correct me if I'm mistaken, but reading the OP from @aquilla above suggests that F3, F4, F5 & F6 do not operate as the instructions indicate? If this is the case then surely this alone suggests that something isn't quite right? Secondly, by looking at what each function F3, F4, F5 & F6 actually performs, as opposed to what the instructions indicate, leaves the questions: There appears to be no function for leading end cab light? There appears to be no control over day/night modes? What is the purpose of F5? Can someone clarify perhaps? thank you kindly... Al Your correct, all of these should be working as per the prototype, but they don't. Its just poor design by people that seem to be not interested in digital. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliepetty Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 (edited) On 04/07/2020 at 11:22, pauliebanger said: Charlie, I've no idea who designed the circuit boards. I imagine it was the resident designer or design team in Kader's China factory. If so, he or she probably has never been to the UK let alone have personal knowledge of the inner workings of vintage UK DMUs lighting. Their design for the circuit board, therefore, can only be informed by the specification handed down to them. If it performs what has been specified, it is, by definition, good design. Could more features have been specified? Yes they probably could. But then we come into the cost/value area, decisions on which as you will know from your own experience, only the manufacturer can make. Would you or I have specified a different arrangement for the lighting functions? I think that's very likely if we were targetting DCC only, where the high functionality of top quality decoders could shine. But not everyone will wish to pay for high end decoders, and it seems to me that the board is capable of providing much more functionality for DC analogue users than that to which they are accustomed. Perhaps Bachmann are looking at a wider picture? If things aren't exactly 'correct' in our view, for many others they will be happy that Bachmann are raising the bar on functionality for them in the way they operate their models. We're not so far apart as it may seem, Charlie, but there is a big difference between providing a specification and designing product to meet those specifcations. Kind regards, Paul We both are involved in digital, what I don't quite understand is the model is designed for a Plux 22, I agree it could have been a 21Pin or even a Next 18, with the limited functions this 'High End' model has,its just disappointing. The Model overall is good, the drive system and door lights are remarkably like the Realtrack Class 156, no coincidence I think, This aside it has always been competition that gets manufacturers to improve their specifications, so I congratulate Bachmann for taking out ugly motors that can be seen through the windows, this for them is a massive step forward. As for the Class 117 & 121!!! The Digital design here is strange, both cab lights on or off together! Charlie Edited July 6, 2020 by AY Mod 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YesTor Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 23 hours ago, Eddie R v2.0 said: I quite often have the cab light on in the front end of the real thing so I would have expected that the front one in the model should be able to be switched on. I guess you could always learn to read or drink tea in the dark? Or maybe a gentle stroll to the rear cab to turn on the light? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmustu Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 As I used to work on sprinters, I can see Bachmann's logic when it comes to the cab lighting. On sprinters with gangways in the cabs, there are 3 cab lights, the drivers and secondman's side lights each have their own switch, and can be used at will. However, the one in the middle of the cab is constantly illuminated anytime the cab desk is shut down and not in use (as long as the saloon lights are switched on), so having a light on constantly in the rear cab is correct. But I do agree with the above, the lighting circuits could have been better designed to allow the front cab to be independently illuminated on dcc. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NigelDC Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 (edited) Hello - I see this is an old thread but this still relates to lighting in the latest Bachmann Class 158. I have the TFW model bought DCC ready, and now fitted with an ESU Loksound decoder. My question is how do the door interlock lights work ? I can’t seem to get them to come on with any of the functions - any help appreciated. Thanks it works with sound on and “passenger doors sound” on F4 👍 problem solved thank you Edited February 5 by NigelDC Problem solved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Kaput Posted February 5 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 5 Who's sound project is on the decoder? The door lights are on Aux5. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Davison Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 I'd like to know how to set the CVs to turn the interior lighting on with F0 so that it will stay illuminated at shows after a trip. I normally do this on ESU chips but am not sure where to start on Zimo decoders. Any help gratefully received. Thanks Jeremy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliepetty Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 (edited) Ha Ha, !! Should use ESU Charlie See you at Glasgow. 158s available from stock ?? Edited February 5 by charliepetty 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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