Operations at Newton Abbot

[PeterLoader]

Hi

Part of my Dawlish in OO railway, set in the 1930s,  includes Newton Abbot station (see my separate 'Dawlish in OO' post in the Layout topics forum for more detail). There are Up Main, Up Relief, Down Main and Down Relief platforms. Some trains were merged at Newton Abbot, i.e. a train arriving from Kingswear might have some or all of its coaches attached to a train from Plymouth heading for the North West or London. Similarly, down trains heading to Plymouth could leave through coaches for the Kingswear line.

Does anyone know the normal method by which this was done please? Options could include

• Up trains arrive in separate platforms; the Kingswear coaches are then attached to the rear of the train ex-Plymouth by shunting them into the other platform, or
• Up coaches are left at the rear of the platform; the ex-Plymouth train pulls in front of them on the same platform via the crossover and backs on to them

I wonder how passengers were managed so that they did not attempt to join / leave a train that was about to be moved to couple up to the other portion? The above options could also apply to down trains if strengthening coaches were to be added at Newton Abbot.

Any help appreciated

Peter

 

Edited June 23, 2020 by PeterLoader
link to forum created

[Bob83a]

check the maps for the period but in the 50/60s there were scissor crossings between the up thru and up main and also between the down thru and and down relief, there was also a single crossover between the up relief and the down main. There were 6 lines in the station. These scissors/crossovers were all just to the west of the platform steps to the over bridge. I.e. the were routes  to the centre of all platform faces. The platforms themselves were long enough for two trains in most cases. So there was no reason to shunt from one platform to another, just a short move to join two trains after the rear trains loco slipped out from between or to make space for a locomotive to move between the two parts after splitting.

A train drawing up behind another would probably not pass current H & S.

[Fat Controller]

6 minutes ago, Bob83a said:

 

A train drawing up behind another would probably not pass current H & S.

I can't see any reason why not; happens every day on the former SR, and it can often be seen at Cardiff Central.

[Siberian Snooper]

42 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

I can't see any reason why not; happens every day on the former SR, and it can often be seen at Cardiff Central.

 

And Plymouth, well it did until the pandemic.

[DY444]

13 hours ago, Bob83a said:

A train drawing up behind another would probably not pass current H & S.

 

The list of places where it happens daily is quite lengthy.  Indeed at Edinburgh there are scissors crossovers half way down a couple of the platforms and the portions of the Highland sleeper are split/joined in a fashion not that dissimilar to the way it was done at Newton Abbot.

[PeterLoader]

thanks, guys. I guess it is pretty obvious really - that is what the scissors cross overs were for. My platforms can't take two train lengths but they can combine a 3+5 or a 4+5 at a push an 9 is the maximum train length so I think I can work with that. Peco don't do a diamond scissors so just a cross over in one direction for the outer platforms on my layout but that will work.

 

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

I can't see any reason why not; happens every day on the former SR, and it can often be seen at Cardiff Central.

And it was designed into the new station at Reading although there the two trains are on separate platform halves so a couple of coach lengths between them

[Rivercider]

Peter Gray in his book 'Rail Trails South West' gives informative captions.

 

On page 114 he gives details of station work at Newton Abbot, in reference to  new service that ran in 1938.

 

He says normal procedure  for trains joining was for the branch portion to arrive first running through 8 to stop in 7, with the rear coach clear of the crossover. The incoming loco came off. The main train from Plymouth arrived a few moments later stopping short of the crossover in 8. The loco then detaches and moves via crossover and up through line to go on the front of the train. Meanwhile the station pilot propels the rear (Plymouth) portion up to attach to the front (Paignton) porton as station staff remove blanking boards from the corridor ends, and couple up.

 

cheers

Edited June 24, 2020 by Rivercider
Additional info

[Bob83a]

The six tracks in the station area were part of the 1927 rebuild, so the crossovers/scissors were probably from the same date, so therefore cover the timeframe of the OP

[PeterLoader]

Wow.. I feel an ebay book purchase coming on! That is a different way of doing it - perhaps I should just merge the trains as I see fit. Presumably sometimes the branch train arrived late. Also I saw in the 50s-based Xpress book that the slip coach for Reading impacted the order of the trains as clearly that needed to be at the back.

[Oldddudders]

If you can get some representation of the operation Kevin has described above then it will make station operation much more interesting than one where mainline trains merely pause. And use of a station pilot for the shunting moves will avoid the need for unsightly front couplers on your best mainline locos. 

[BMacdermott]

Hello Peter

 

A 'must have book' is: Scenes from the Past 19: Railways in and around Newton Abbot and Torbay.

 

Brian

[Rivercider]

13 hours ago, PeterLoader said:

Wow.. I feel an ebay book purchase coming on! That is a different way of doing it - perhaps I should just merge the trains as I see fit. Presumably sometimes the branch train arrived late. Also I saw in the 50s-based Xpress book that the slip coach for Reading impacted the order of the trains as clearly that needed to be at the back.

The Peter Gray book contains photos from the 1950s and 1960s of WR and SR operations across the south west. There are a number of photos taken at Newton Abbot and surrounding locations, but he had a lifelong interest in railways so the captions are very informative,

 

cheers

[PeterLoader]

Hello. A further question regarding locos at Kingswear.  For example, would the loco for the up Torbay express have been stored at Kingswear overnight? Or would it come from Newton Abbot in the morning and if so, as light engine, attached as a spare to another train or actually hauling a different passenger train? There was no engine shed and it would appear not much space for storing them.

If anyone old shed some light on how the locos were managed that would be helpful.

[Kris]

11 hours ago, PeterLoader said:

Hello. A further question regarding locos at Kingswear.  For example, would the loco for the up Torbay express have been stored at Kingswear overnight? Or would it come from Newton Abbot in the morning and if so, as light engine, attached as a spare to another train or actually hauling a different passenger train? There was no engine shed and it would appear not much space for storing them.

If anyone old shed some light on how the locos were managed that would be helpful.

The locos would have headed back to Newton Abbot. Somewhere I have the details, not immediately to hand however. If nobody else has jumped in by the end of the day tomorrow I'll root around. 

[PeterLoader]

1 hour ago, Kris said:

The locos would have headed back to Newton Abbot. Somewhere I have the details, not immediately to hand however. If nobody else has jumped in by the end of the day tomorrow I'll root around. 

Thanks, Kris

[petrox]

According to various books I have (see below), for example the loco for the up Torbay Express worked down to Kingswear on the 9.50 Newton-Kingswear local passenger, before being turned (and watered?) and working out  on the 11.25 up Torbay . There is also a pic of a Castle class loco, having taken the down Torbay to Kingswear, working back to Newton Abbott tender-first on a local freight. Another pic shows a Castle working down on the 8.30 Paignton-Kingswear with a 2-coach local, presumably before taking an up express.

Stock for various up express workings from Kingswear may have been worked down from NA - another pic shows  a Large Prairie tank at the head of 9 corridor coaches, which seems a lot for a local passenger - many local trains seemed to consist of 4 or 5 coaches maximum.

Books are Operation Torbay 1957 (W.S. Becket), GW Branch Line Memories (Lewis Reade), Newton Abbott to Kingswear (C.S. Potts).

Hope this helps - my layout is inspired by Kingswear but by no means is a close representation!

 

Pete

[Chris M]

The locos were serviced at Newton Abbot. In one book there is a photo of a number of locos running together tender first from Newton Abbot heading for Goodrington or maybe Kingswear. Apparently this was a summer Saturday thing.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

The turntable at Kingswear could take anything up to and including Kings. However, there was no turning facility at Paington (Goodrington) until c1958/9 when it was really too late. Hence the tender first running for trains originating at Paignton (or the one or two starting from Torquay).

[Kris]

Having looked through the details that I have, light engines running to Kingswear would have been rare due to the single track section. Most if not all would have worked back to NA taking a train. Many of the later arriving trains returned to NA as ECS workings. 

[DCB]

There are references to Castles working locals tender first to (and probably from) Paignton prior to taking express trains back to NA and beyond. Kingswear didn't have the space for all the Torbay services so a lot terminated at Paignton.    The Day of the Holiday Express  and Summer Saturdays in the West have details.   It's quite interesting how the GW differed from northern lines when a whole series of locos heads East on the wrong trains because workings get out of synch OOC ones landing at Bristol or Cardiff, etc  A complete contrast to Blackpool I believe when day excursion  engine and train returned together from whence they came, and weekly trains came from one town and returned the previous weeks holiday makers to the different town from whence they came as different towns had different holiday weeks.   North Wales coast and Barry Island were probably busier than NA  but the locos were not as pretty. The freights didn't run in daylight on summer saturdays down NA way,  They had very few freight locos down that way so the Halls and Granges usually on the freights were drafted to passenger work. Trouble  with NA is you really need 11 coach trains to make the splitting and reforming believable.   Okehampton on the rickety tramway round the top of Dartmoor is a more modellable splitting reforming station, 3 not 6 pl;atforms.

NA did have 3 platforms pre 1927 but trains split at Exeter then....

[KeithMacdonald]

On 24/06/2020 at 19:27, Rivercider said:

He says normal procedure  for trains joining was for the branch portion to arrive first running through 8 to stop in 7, with the rear coach clear of the crossover. The incoming loco came off. The main train from Plymouth arrived a few moments later stopping short of the crossover in 8. The loco then detaches and moves via crossover and up through line to go on the front of the train. Meanwhile the station pilot propels the rear (Plymouth) portion up to attach to the front (Paignton) porton as station staff remove blanking boards from the corridor ends, and couple up.

 

Are the crossovers hidden from view here under the station canopy?

 

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17.6&lat=50.52937&lon=-3.59774&layers=168&b=1

 

 

[Bob83a]

32 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Are the crossovers hidden from view here under the station canopy?

 

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17.6&lat=50.52937&lon=-3.59774&layers=168&b=1

 

 

This map dates from before 1911 when the goods facilities were relocated on to the Moretonhampstead branch, adjacent to the race course. The station was rebuilt in 1927 with much longer platforms and no overall roof. I believe that the crossovers to allow the joining of trains were installed at that time.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Bob83a
Correct english

[KeithMacdonald]

16 hours ago, Bob83a said:

This map dates from before 1911 when the goods facilities were relocated on to the Moretonhampstead branch, adjacent to the race course. The station was rebuilt in 1927 with much longer platforms and no overall roof. I believe that the crossovers to allow the joining of trains were installed at that time.

 

Sure enough, find the later edition of the same map, and there are the crossovers. Curiously, they are not in the same place (relative to the footbridge), but are perhaps positioned to suit the relative lengths of up & down trains being joined or split?

 

 

https://maps.nls.uk/view/106005740

[Bob83a]

The positioning might relate to shorter portion on the Kingswear branch compared to the Plymouth/Cornwall portion.

But the shorter portion would have to be on the rear in both direction which does not seem likely.