Jump to content
 

On the Captain's Workbench - P4 panniers


Recommended Posts

  • RMweb Gold

This Cambrian Catfish was built around the same time as that initial Dogfish was converted. I recall that it was a little tricky in terms of getting everything assembled more or less where it ought to be.

 

I installed a home-brewed internal rocker compensation at one end, which should be explained better by the photo (this used some scrap brass and a modified MJT internal rocker unit):

20200428_160738.jpg.cb6d04b7aef5bfcd274b22e129c0daff.jpg

 

20200428_160750.jpg.a6f0155b797ee58b602d5d13c2bf7d91.jpg

 

Again, the Catfish lived in the stock box for years, without seeing any weathering being applied.

 

And now for some more recent work.

 

When John F (Re6/6) told me about his project to build Parkend Marsh Sidings, I thought I would help out with some ballast hoppers, as ballast traffic from Whitecliff Quarry (just beyond Coleford) was one of the staple traffics on what remained of the Severn & Wye system in the Forest of Dean.

 

The wagons could also be used on Callow Lane and would also be suitable to appear on my own future planned Forest of Dean project 'Travellers Rest'.

 

Although Herring ballast hoppers featured highly in the FoD at that time, there were instances where Dogfish appeared, especially towards the end of the line's existence. Once the Coleford branch was closed in 1967, Whitecliff ballast was taken by lorry to Parkend Marsh Sidings for loading until the Parkend branch was closed to all goods traffic by BR in 1976.

 

I decided to buy a pack of four Heljan Dogfish from Kernow Model Rail Centre earlier this year. I can't recall now if the factory-weathered pack was the only option left, but both John and I felt that the job done by Heljan wasn't at all bad, although I do plan to apply further weathering soon.

 

Here are the wagons posed on Bethesda Sidings, prior to being converted to P4. At this stage, the only weathering is that applied by the factory:

20200519_120719.jpg.7d826c65cb92edea9002eaf3d36923c2.jpg

 

More to follow.

 

  • Like 6
  • Craftsmanship/clever 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

The first couple of Dogfish to be converted this year feature the same method that I used with the earlier example, namely a slightly loose axle at one end, with a bar over the centre of the axle.

 

Once again, I had to discard the Heljan OO wheelsets (which found a good home!) and substitute AG wheels, again with shortened pin point axles.

 

This time, I also fitted brass pin point bearings in all four Dogfish. This necessitated carefully drilling the plastic axle bearings out with a 2mm drill (by hand) and then very, very carefully melting the bearing into the plastic 'W iron' with the tip of a soldering iron and a pointed file to hold it in position.

 

The brass bearings haven't yet been fitted at the compensation beam end:

20201029_163011.jpg.e12c11e5ccc842f976a19a6a761673df.jpg

 

Wagon fitted with 3 link (instanter) couplings, but still featuring the factory weathering only:

20201030_194954.jpg.d2681a5d7629518279ba63480933d043.jpg

 

To compare the underside of OO and P4 converted vehicles:

20201106_163908.jpg.bfaa9a4e81430fdf9722ca26f75fde33.jpg

 

By this time, we had established that the first two conversions ran fine on Marsh Sidings, so I decided to experiment with the remaining two and convert them as fully rigid vehicles, albeit with sprung buffers in lieu of the moulded Heljan ones. Lanarkshire Model Supplies supplied the excellent pre-drilled buffer housings, which will use sprung MJT heads:

20201107_194855.jpg.95ac5cd3267fb6ed459ec0099ce8d7ab.jpg

 

The Dogfish and Catfish, following conversion of the remaining Dogfish. The bits of paper in the wagons denote the weight and you will note some lead or 'liquid lead' in some of the hoppers. I am planning on 50g per wagon:

20201110_102440.jpg.e595b6b3ef213ef718dd6b7f139d6cec.jpg

 

More to follow.

 

  • Like 8
  • Craftsmanship/clever 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

And now for some Herring.

 

I was able to obtain a small number of the original series Cambrian kits before they became (temporarily) unobtainable. I am happy to say that the new owner of Cambrian has now re-started production of the kit and I have obtained a few more for me and John.

 

The nature of the prototype makes this kit somewhat less straightforward to build as compared with, say, an ordinary open wagon or box van.

 

Still, the main hopper is one moulding, which is very helpful and the chassis is also one moulding ('footplate', solebars and 'W irons' all as one piece). The hopper operating gear and brake gear appear quite complicated at first sight, but careful perusal of the instructions, together with some gratefully-received tips from Phil Bullock and Adam on this forum, resulted in the bits more or less going where they were meant to (certainly from the point of view of looking at a wagon the right way up!):

20201112_202324.jpg.945233fd9ab6f5d9f59af325349400e6.jpg

 

The Herring is quite a small wagon as compared with a Dogfish:

20201112_202409.jpg.21f36448d95f3b3e73c22adb85379cfe.jpg

 

20201114_164537.jpg.e541301606cf3135da44d1c297575fbe.jpg

 

20201114_202643.jpg.085988da39fd5e0cf90722e011164820.jpg

 

20201117_120956.jpg.8511a7b86a826416503f3867bbc7134b.jpg

 

The one drawback with the Herring is that the plastic model is extremely lightweight. Too light even for OO, I would say and certainly not heavy enough for P4. Apart from the small area immediately behind the buffer beams at each end, the only viable place you can put any weight is in the hopper itself, which really precludes running the wagons as empties. I have used liquid lead on the two Herring that I have built so far:

20201119_105241.jpg.ffb52c34fac2965c7f99503cb570355d.jpg

 

A line up of the hoppers so far:

20201122_192543_a.jpg.263188a5d0c14c32198bcec15285b38d.jpg

 

The Herring were then given an undercoat of red primer (Halfords, from an aerosol). The bits of rolled up tissue in the buffers are to prevent the Lanarkshire housings from getting 'gummed up' with paint:

20201123_194605.jpg.72e2b0ac50d8993f894bfdc3077dfbb2.jpg

 

And then in black topcoat, prior to lettering (CCT transfers) and weathering being added:

20201125_141134.jpg.edc87d1e3ec3acaf36bd08138dd0e9ec.jpg

 

20201125_141157.jpg.fce707cc0f976f3431d892ea2e573da3.jpg

 

Once the transfers had been applied to the two Herring, all nine hoppers were given a waft-over with Humbrol Matt Acrylic Varnish from an aerosol (that excellent tip comes from the Sheepman!).

 

Yesterday, I started applying some weathering powders to a couple of the wagons. This is definitely not the final finish, however, and further weathering with enamel paints and more powders will follow:

20201129_142958.jpg.2c4cddbf49e10f513e33ab3f5fad3fd4.jpg

 

20201129_143003.jpg.b03af7b51248c30a5e53e8794cee4bce.jpg

 

 

  • Like 13
  • Craftsmanship/clever 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Tim,

 

Nice work. You may feel it unnecessary, but the single biggest improvement that could be made to those Dogfish and Catfish would be substituting some etched handwheels. the real things are quite chunky so the ones to go for are the Stenson Models (ex-Colin Craig) examples:

https://www.stensonmodels.co.uk/product-category/all-products/4mm-products/handwheels/

 

You can see the end result with these two (I'm sure I have some images of these fully weathered somewhere, but you get the effect). These particular Catfish are modelled examples loaned to the SR from the LMR based on some Dave Larkin pictures.

 

Catfish_and_Herring.gif.e81c10f63143947d70b5df240517c8bd.gif

 

Catfish_11.gif.465306a76128d85d8b3519fc667fc1f2.gif

 

Adam

 

 

Edited by Adam
  • Like 9
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Captain Kernow changed the title to On the Captain's Workbench - more P4 rolling stock
  • RMweb Gold

I've been working on some more P4 rolling stock.

 

Here is an almost finished Cambrian Herring (one of two currently built):

20201207_170532.jpg.017e688eca61beea08dae516b91b5e37.jpg

 

I've also been weathering other RTR ballast hoppers, such as this Hornby Trout:

20201206_171716.jpg.1436effad449497cecd4d775a6b60127.jpg

 

Neither wagon is sprung or compensated, but seem to run OK.

 

  • Like 3
  • Craftsmanship/clever 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

I've also converted a Hornby ex-GWR 'Toad' brake van.

 

Although the axle guards are quite thin, it is necessary to thin them down a little more, to fit the P4 wheelsets, with sufficient room to rotate freely. This was done using a rotary tool and cleaned up with a scalpel.

 

The axle boxes were then drilled out with a 2mm drill and pin point bearings sunk into them. They were heat-shrunk into place, using the tip of a soldering iron. Care is needed here, to ensure that the bearing doesn't 'wander', resulting in axles that are out of square, so a thin, pointed needle file is used at the same time, to 'guide' the bearing into place (or, more correctly, to stop it 'wandering').

 

I didn't compensate or spring this one either. Most of my later wagon conversions, done a few years ago, before I temporarily stopped work in P4, weren't sprung or compensated either and as long as they sit nice and square on a sheet of glass, they run happily enough on 'Callow Lane' and don't derail.

 

This approach was reinforced by a conversation with a much more experienced and respected P4 modeller than me, who doesn't tend to spring or compensate such items of rolling stock either.

 

It is necessary to remove the brake gear assembly, which Hornby have moulded as one, rather delicate item. It's glued into small holes in the underframe on all four sides and care is needed when gently prising it out with a thin screwdriver or similar.

 

Once removed, some plastic has to be removed from the brake gear assembly, to avoid the P4 wheel treads rubbing on it, so the modified item looks like this:

20201213_133820.jpg.f0ea2d2272ab7c71b9b56ba7bf5bd741.jpg

 

I also cut the inner face of the brake block away with a No. 10A scalpel, which is where the otherwise commendably thin brake blocks might rub on the P4 flanges. One should, perhaps, completely rebuild the brake assembly, to move the brake shows outwards by about 0.5mm, to have them completely parallel with the wheels, but the above ruse is largely hidden by the brake van's footboards anyway.

 

This is the underside, when brake assemblies and wheels have been fitted:

20201213_140709.jpg.529dc5d37e74a89de22c9b4c38dce8f4.jpg

 

20201213_140743.jpg.305bdfc61131b4a550417c032349a29e.jpg

 

20201213_140750.jpg.5476239f8101f27a091895ad2f945ee5.jpg

 

I thought about replacing the buffers and fitting sprung ones, but the Hornby ones are rather nice, so I plan on leaving them.

 

The van needs some re-lettering, as it will see most use in Gloucestershire, not Cornwall and will also need weathering.

20201212_212101.jpg.d3a0f64d67706b6591033991854b90a7.jpg

 

 

  • Like 8
  • Craftsmanship/clever 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I absolutely agree that RTR wagons don't need compensation for P4, but regrettably, my kit built bodge ups do. 

I too have found the need to thin the backs of the moulded W-Irons but a way of inserting pin point bearings has eluded me.

You wagons look really good, a joy to see.

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 13/12/2020 at 23:37, PenrithBeacon said:

.... but a way of inserting pin point bearings has eluded me.

 

There is the Knowle Wagon Works tool, see here:

Seems to come well recommended.  One recently obtained, partly on the basis of “get it while you can”.

  • Like 1
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...
  • RMweb Gold

Herring number 4 as a work in progress, with number 3 behind, waiting for the paint shop:

20210105_145308.jpg.1220aa96b6a559979a2cfebc8c50d39e.jpg

 

I know I haven't done as many as Phil Bullock yet, but I'm going to have a rest from them after this one and will probably have a go at this one next:

20210105_150454.jpg.79e3f8fe8118e608baca3302006965cd.jpg

 

  • Like 6
  • Craftsmanship/clever 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

Herring number 4 is now complete, pending painting. I won't post a photo of it up at the moment, because in it's 'raw plastic' state, it looks just like number 3.

 

I've made a start on the Chivers 'Ling' this afternoon. Although it's also to be in P4, I've decided to try it with a rigid, non-compensated chassis as well, despite the wheelbase being slightly longer. If it doesn't work out on the layout, I'll retro-fit a rocking internal compensation unit at one end.

 

What I have found on this original Chivers kit from a few years ago, however, is that some of the mouldings have warped a little, requiring a bit of 'finger manipulation' to get them back in the correct shape.

 

I was also slightly surprised by a 'crudity' in the very chunky plastic tie bar mouldings between the axle guards on each side, which I am replacing with brass.

 

  • Like 1
  • Friendly/supportive 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

I've also been looking at making some more magnetic coupling poles, given that the excellent product previously sold by Lanarkshire Model Supplies is no longer available.

 

I bought some very small magnets (1mm x 1mm and 1mm x 2mm) from First for Magnets, to see which was the most suitable and a shunting pole was made up with each type of magnet.

 

1mm N/S rod formed the main 'pole', with a thin brass sleeve fashioned around the magnet and soldered to the nickel silver rod. The magnet itself was glued into the hollow part of the sleeve (don't try applying heat near one of these magnets, as it takes away the magnetism!).

 

This was the 2mm x 1mm magnet shunting pole (both poles used pen torches that I already had):

20210109_154156.jpg.1d68ca58562be2bf6c049aaf5de6d1e2.jpg

 

The tip of the longer (2mm) magnet can be seen protruding:

20210109_154218.jpg.012a91c055db0aa47d41cfe0c4d6f212.jpg

 

In practice, I found that the larger (2mm long) magnet was a little too powerful, when used with the Smiths steel links on the end of my couplings. It was a little difficult to get the link off the magnet!

 

I then made another shunting pole, this time using a 1mm x 1mm magnet, which ended up being totally encased by the thin brass sleeve:

20210110_145011.jpg.15a18afa7e0dd2094bd5103b7c5238e8.jpg

 

20210110_145021.jpg.8cd86abb873790ea5109f6244820f9df.jpg

 

This proved to be much more workable and will form the basis for further magnetic coupling poles in due course.

 

 

 

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

Interesting stuff, Tim. I shall look carefully at your ideas, as I have to confront the issue of splitting/uncoupling corridor stock in a nearside platform, probably several times in a day's operations. I use Kadees, but the need to get on site is just the same. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Captain Kernow changed the title to On the Captain's Workbench - rolling stock, P4 and OO
  • RMweb Gold

Over the last few weeks, I've been building and converting P4 rolling stock, mostly engineering wagons and I'm about to continue the weathering of Herrings 3 and 4 and also the Ling.

 

In the meantime, I remembered that I already had a couple of (very) old and completed Parkside Dundas Grampus, together with an ancient Jidenco 4 plank GW open, which were sitting rather unloved and sorry for themselves in one of the Bleakhouse Road stock boxes. None of them had ever been lettered or weathered.

 

The Parkside Grampus kit must have been upgraded over the years, because the two old OO examples didn't quite have the same level of detail on the mouldings that a more recent one, which I had built in P4 a few years ago. Both had been finished in Olive Green.

 

Rather than get involved in an all-singing, all-dancing upgrade, I decided to just letter and weather the wagons as they were.

 

The Grampus were given some of the excellent Cambridge Custom Transfers lettering, which was all sealed in with a coat of Humbrol Matt Acrylic Varnish. The 4-plank wagon was re-painted, to represent unpainted, weathered planks, lettered and similarly varnished. Some weathering was then applied with enamels and then powders.

 

Here they are, posed on Bethesda Sidings:

20210125_150108.jpg.7c3d6d4549f1ff04e5451bcd29967bd7.jpg

 

A pannier from Croes Newydd was sent down later that week to shunt the yard:

20210125_150213.jpg.f5ed5fab5c62a5b7a3322067cfccc7bd.jpg

 

20210125_150232.jpg.0fe8b77a1a9d28424e8f50167c9195e9.jpg

 

20210125_150251.jpg.80eae651d8fc2ba04da18818f764d82a.jpg

 

  • Like 8
  • Craftsmanship/clever 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

No need for actual  (and potentially overstrong) magnets stuck to a bit of wobbly wire. For magnetic uncoupling I just rub an old fine needle file on a cheap magnet.  Used with an iron wire bottom link this works fine.  When it needs it, just give it another rub.

 

As the actress said to the bishop..........................

  • Funny 1
  • Friendly/supportive 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

I've now finished the other two Herring and the Ling. Once painted, the wagons were sprayed with Humbrol Matt Acrylic varnish, as a good base to let weathering powders adhere. Transfers on all wagons are from Cambridge Custom Transfers and very good they are too, as is John Isherwood's very quick service.

 

20210201_202614.jpg.3a4a0697c7799d8de4cc049f6649bfd4.jpg

 

20210201_202633.jpg.15fb1f8cf0f32bb4d96ab7592efe1ae2.jpg

 

20210201_202710.jpg.cc1afe8bc15d2d4cdfbf15795e5f589d.jpg

 

20210201_202538.jpg.6c7897a91fbb85c9d3fdcc52a632dc48.jpg

 

I will put some 'PW detritus' in the Ling in due course.

20210201_202544.jpg.8930af30ba1f294540fc7f8f45b840b3.jpg

 

20210201_202520.jpg.81acc55fc5e818076a10a2ef7629756e.jpg

 

These are all P4 wagons, but as 'Callow Lane' isn't set up at the moment, here is the Ling doing a precarious balancing act on my OO layout 'Bethesda Sidings':

20210201_203227.jpg.b6a1a2fee5b2887a68fe51cd43b66ad8.jpg

 

Here are all four completed Herring, similarly balancing:

20210201_203630.jpg.76a89c9189f57d154e4f81718aee513b.jpg

 

I will provide 'full loads' for the two Herring on the right in due course.

 

 

  • Like 5
  • Craftsmanship/clever 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 2 years later...
  • RMweb Gold

Since the last entry, I have mostly been doing scenic work on one of the boards of 'Callow Lane', plus fettling and weathering a batch of 16t minerals for Re6/6 and converting to P4 and weathering a few wagons for myself.

 

Now that I have established that 'Callow Lane' will not be going to any exhibitions this year, I am shortly going to pack the nearly finished scenic board away and get 'Bethesda Sidings' out again, partially for testing prior to the Taunton RMWeb Members Day in April next and also for testing of further OO locos, that I hope will end up being added to the roster for that layout.

 

The next major project will probably be building a new chassis for Dean Goods 2538:

20220624_162314.jpg.f9c637ecae74cb282dc92f872b601159.jpg

 

This is an Oxford Rail loco and was weathered for me by Tom Foster a couple of years ago.

 

Unfortunately, despite much running in etc., I haven't been able to make the chassis perform as I would wish it to (not enough slow speed control for shunting), so I have obtained the various bits for a replacement etched chassis (Comet), Markits wheels, High Level gearbox etc. I plan to put simple single bear compensation in the chassis, to improve current collection.

 

The loco can then join the permanent roster for 'Bethesda Sidings'.

 

  • Like 4
  • Friendly/supportive 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Captain Kernow changed the title to On the Captain's Workbench - new chassis for Dean Goods
  • 5 months later...
  • RMweb Gold

I've been working on the Dean Goods chassis, off and on, for a few weeks now.

 

Of course, the Comet kit isn't designed for the Oxford body (it should fit the old Mainline/Hornby one OK, though), so some small modifications had to be made to the tops of the frames, to ensure that it fits nice and level.

 

A small indent has to be removed from the front and a bit more metal from the back, including above the rear axle:

20230316_161544.jpg.feea1786ec62516ba0bafa897f20a13a.jpg

 

I was worried that taking that much metal from the top of the various cut-outs might weaken the frame, so I strengthened it from behind (not particularly pretty, but it does the job and is completely hidden):

20230316_161556.jpg.01c7fd192ab352deb1944256b0541595.jpg

 

Due to the way the Oxford body is moulded, the amount of metal you have to remove from the rear top of the chassis differs from one side to the other...

 

I was going to build the chassis with single beam compensation. Although this isn't at all necessary for road holding in OO, it does help with current pick up (even though I'm using tender pick ups as well), so I first decided to tack solder the basics of the chassis together in a rigid format, so as to be able to accurately determine if my metal removing efforts has resulted in the body sitting level on the chassis.

 

For this, I used my Poppy's jig:

20230501_104530.jpg.ec1d5409f4678912c44e4fbdffd78c44.jpg

 

The Markits wheels were fitted to the axles, but only the front and rear ones to begin with, as a basic '0-4-0' would serve. With these wheels, I always use a small square file to gently remove any tightness in the fit of the axle to the wheel:

20230501_105255.jpg.9342bf7beb2a86bc84ba57a6ffafb663.jpg

 

The result looked like this, resting on a piece of flat glass for checking:

20230501_111534.jpg.179582add99e874a9ddb8464147f6490.jpg

 

20230501_111551.jpg.3688b8b43a7374199464e58a4a943ac4.jpg

 

20230501_112003.jpg.9000b78f013b4af4397be10bf677ffb2.jpg

 

Once I had ensured that the loco body was sitting squarely on the chassis, I could being the process of installing compensation.

 

The Comet chassis doesn't make provision for compensation (although the High Level one does), but there is provision for the Comet springing system, should you wish to use that.

 

As such, prior to soldering the frames together, one of them was laid flat with top hat bearings in the front and middle axle holes and the position of the pivot for the compensation beam worked out. I used some suitable brass tube I had (something like 1.5mm to 2mm, unfortunately can't remember now!) and some brass rod that fitted the inside tube diameter exactly. I regret that I didn't take any photos of this stage...

 

I used High Level hornblocks on the compensated front and middle axles, leaving the rear axle rigid for the motor drive.

 

The compensated chassis without before any additional detailing was added:

20230505_165008.jpg.3e288607ca4fdc90051578ef1158e33c.jpg

 

20230505_164757.jpg.f82e8fb0ae0dc327d75013d6b1c5a330.jpg

 

20230514_121154.jpg.2aea61749836178c80d8b00afc330554.jpg

 

20230505_164944.jpg.e41308bb983d05d5afe0b73972a403fd.jpg

 

More to follow.

 

  • Like 10
  • Craftsmanship/clever 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

As mentioned earlier, the Comet chassis wasn't original developed with the Oxford body in mind, so the question of where to locate the chassis fixing points had to be worked out.

 

In the end, I decided to use the existing front screw fixing point, albeit lowered a little, to accommodate the height at which I had set the front frame spacer.

 

For the rear, I epoxied a small 'L' shaped place with an 8BA brass nut pre-soldered in place:

20230516_152855.jpg.d366e52d9ad1fe0c9eec218647123b9b.jpg

 

The chassis in place again:

20230516_161446.jpg.e85eb5d361ecc3093a5c3939d9efce95.jpg

 

The next stage was to fit the brake gear. I used an extremely sophisticated clamping system to help me ensure that the brake shoes were correctly aligned, prior to soldering:

20230521_143623.jpg.c7d1bb7f00e682fcfe8145791f0ba171.jpg

 

20230521_143633.jpg.252f7451b7ed4771b1628a2087f15265.jpg

 

The brake gear assembled, with the rods and motor gearbox added:

20230525_195121.jpg.443f698ffe3a94130dbabff99060d090.jpg

 

The external pull rods would be added later, once the chassis was painted and run in.

 

Small and thin pieces of copper clad were glued to the underside of the frames (again, not pretty but also not visible):

20230525_195142.jpg.41e773480de2900f4202f252c12fc91f.jpg

 

Once the pick ups had been fitted and adjusted, some running-in of the motor and gearbox in situ was undertaken:

20230526_102928.jpg.6c659d31cf6a275369da6475e8a34c9e.jpg

 

And then on the rolling road:

20230526_160401.jpg.718744116756e9690fd34addcbd8f3db.jpg

 

While that was going on, I formed up a replacement lower boiler from plasticard, by wrapping the plasticard round an aluminium bending bar and putting it in very hot water for a while:

20230526_104501.jpg.b3f0e979aba513775e97f83a3f4bc3b8.jpg

 

 

 

  • Like 13
  • Informative/Useful 1
  • Craftsmanship/clever 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Captain Kernow changed the title to On the Captain's Workbench - new chassis for Oxford Rail Dean Goods
  • 2 weeks later...
  • 4 weeks later...

Looks good, but would it not have been better with the original Oxford wheels?  I have been changing many of my locos from Romfords and Markits with the ugly centre fastening to Hornby etc with a more prototypical axle end ? 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...