Hall Class 4965 Rood Ashton Hall Main Range Seized from new.

[robmcg]

Dear All,

 

Normally I return faulty new engines from Hornby, but I purchased a few months ago from an excellent retailer in the UK a R3205 BR 'Rood Ashton Hall' which took about two months to get to me, and just today opened it to photograph it.

 

Alas the driving wheels will do half a rev then seize, only in one direction from rods up to rods down, or backwards the same way, the centre driver feels locked but has sideways movement. It doesn't look or feel like the rods, slidebars and so on look ok to my reasonably practised eye..

 

Is it worth taking the bottom plate of the chassis or is this likely to require a complete new wheel-set and drive gear?

 

Could some kind person suggest the best way to check this before sending back to the UK which might take many weeks, with replacement or refund in mind?

 

I've had two or three models like this in the last few dozen engines over a couple of years, but have always just returned them. With Covid and courier costs from NZ to the UK being high, a possible repair seems like it might be better all round.

 

Looking at the photo you can see the vac pump piston is out of its body but it doesn't feel like that's the problem. I will try to get a 'rods forward' position and try to fix that first.

 

Any and all opinions invited.

 

 

 

I tried to release the vac pump rod and it appeared to go flush with the cylinder, then I tried to lever the slidebars back towards horizontal as they appeared a fraction high towards the rear, very fractionally, being fussy, and the rod fell out.broke off.  sigh 

 

The driving wheels are totally seized, no movement at all. And no, the connecting rods is not fouling the front coupling rod at all.

Edited June 25, 2020 by robmcg
add picture, and add comment

[hap]

When I have experienced this in the past, I removed the electric motor and tested it by itself.  This also allows the wheels and motion to be tested in isolation. 

 

In my case the electric motor was the issue (Black 5 engine in body version).  With my fingers I turned it as much as I could till resistance was felt.  I then decided to take a risk and forced it a bit more.  Crunch...  then free running.  I then ran it on 12v power for a little while noting some puffs of a redish powder from the small air vents when I started.  The motor has been 100% ever since and this was perhaps 7 years ago.

Edited June 25, 2020 by hap

[robmcg]

Good thinking. I may take the body off and search for obvious faults, a good Covid project.  Will keep you posted. It might affect warranty, I have advised the retailer of the fault and asked for their view of things, the last time I had this issue was with a 4472 super detail Flying Scotsman A3 recent release and I got a full refund. They said it was likely to go to a gentleman who takes Hornby rejects and re-sells them , I got the impression that this was quite a thriving enterprise. The A3 in question had an identical seized middle driving wheel, and it makes me wonder if this fault is rather common.  

 

edit; I loosened-off the four screws holding the engine chassis baseplate on, by about one turn each. The front and rear drivers now have a little free play, the middle driver is still locked solid, and the engine now rocks to-and-fro with the middle driver as a fulcrum, sitting now lower than the front and rear drivers.  It feels like a drive gear issue, locked-up somehow.

 

Body off now? Is this likely to be a full strip of the chassis?

 

Perhaps this should be in technical questions/help?  I'll leave that to moderators.

 

Thanks

edit2_ With the baseplate loosened by 1-2mm the screws nearly out the engine now has all three driving axles free , but the engine under normal power does half a revolution then the middle wheel seizes. Photo below shows it 'rods down' and the brake hangers very low.

 

I removed the screw to the tender drawbar, at the tender, to expose the 4-pin plug and to my dismay (I have the special tool) will not be removed because is very nearly flush with the tender body.  This is the first time I have seen a plug this far into a tender body, and I have successfully removed dozens.

 

sigh.

 

Guidance welcomed.  I'll photograph the plug tomorrow. At least all four wheels sit flat on the track now!  

 

Edited June 25, 2020 by robmcg

[atom3624]

I would guess that pump piston would cause resistance at least once per revolution.

 

Unusual for Hornby, but how is the quartering?

 

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

Al.

[Neal Ball]

2 hours ago, scumcat said:

I have found in the past that if the collector wipers get stuck between the spokes of the wheels this will appear as if the motor is seized.

 

Failing that, I would send it back. I certainly wouldn't strip a new loco down. 

 

Good luck!

[Retro_man]

One of my customers had a similar problem with a Hornby loco a few years ago.

When I removed the motor and looked at the gears I found one of the body fixing screws stuck to one of the gears with the grease. It would rotate half a turn in each direction then jammed. I removed the screw and all was well.

 

I hope it is a s simple for you Rob.

 

Steve

Canada

[MikeParkin65]

All depends on the economics of returning it versus the ease and feasibility of any repair. The problem is clearly mechanical and you appear to have looked for all the obvious visual problems. My next check would be body off and motor out to see of the problem is the chassis or the motor. All of the problems noted above are possible plus I suppose we have to add in a split gear and the dreaded mazak rot.

 

If its any comfort I've just opened up a Rebuilt Patriot that was bought new from a local preserved railway a few years ago (45536 - thats about 2012 ish I think) - absolutely awful condition! Snapped brake on loco chassis, both sides of valve gear bent, running board separated from boiler! I dont know if its been dropped or what. It was in a sale (the railway stopped stocking Hornby but still sell Bachmann - I wonder why?!) but I have now spent most of what I saved on replacement parts from Peters Spares. Plenty of Hogwarts Halls on ebay etc - might be the most economic way of fixing your Rood Ashton?

[robmcg]

Thanks for all the replies.

 

I incline to think there is something jamming the main drive gear, flash or a piece of plastic or a metal screw or something,  after photographing the engine I will take the body off, easy enough, and inspect, then maybe loosen the engine mounts and see if it runs free or not, if not either remove middle driver    ... or sell for spares or repair with a better idea of what's wrong.

 

I'll check the pickup wipers too.

 

Photos to come  but may take a day or two.

 

Cheers and thanks again. 

[robmcg]

Progress of sorts, 

 

The 4-pin plug may be removable... the photos show not much for the Hornby tool to grip but care and patience, maybe.

 

Also shown is the model with baseplate re-tightened, all wheels have correct side play and float but still only half-a-rev between seizing, in either direction.

 

 

 

 

 

[robmcg]

Mystery, and success.

 

I turned the engine upside down again, and in removing the body at first removed the wrong front set screw, didn't see the identical one buried in the recess, and was bemused that the body was still tight. Gripped it moderately tightly before the penny dropped and I saw the correct frront body-fixing screw.  

 

The small u-shaped plastic part in the photo 'appeared' no idea where it came from or what it does.

 

Removed the body having removed the correct front set-screw. Replaced on the track as shown.

 

The flywheel on the front of the electric motor turned freely.  Odd, I thought.

 

Applied power and the engine ran smoothly and freely, as silently and smoothly as you could wish for.

 

I have no idea why the chassis was seizing with the body on.

 

 

One mission left. I don't have a magnetic screwdriver so getting screws back in can be fun... 

[hap]

Excellent news - worth the persistence. 

You have me wondering where that U shaped part was sitting and what it is for,  

 

You can make a screwdriver tip magnetic by stoking one with a magnet a few times.  

[robmcg]

3 hours ago, hap said:

Excellent news - worth the persistence. 

You have me wondering where that U shaped part was sitting and what it is for,  

 

You can make a screwdriver tip magnetic by stoking one with a magnet a few times.  

 

Thanks for that, I was thinking of using petroleum jelly and prayer.

 

Here is the smooth-running model, front bogie and tender drawbar not connected yet.

 

That green needs work...     the photo was taken in winter evening window light with a touch of reading lamp light.

 

[atom3624]

I use a touch of black tack with non-magnetic screwdrivers / screws - works well enough.

 

Al.

[Mark Hamlin]

Hi Rob

 

I would be keen to pick this one up once you come to sell it. I’m in Chch

[Hilux5972]

11 minutes ago, Mark Hamlin said:

Hi Rob

 

I would be keen to pick this one up once you come to sell it. I’m in Chch

Hey hey no playing Favourites. Take your chances on Trademe like the rest of us!!!!!

[Mark Hamlin]

Fair call

 

Well done with the detective work Rob

[145 Squadron]

Rob

Could the mystery part be one of the slidebar supports? I have seen a couple of this type of loco where the crosshead fouled the support each time it passed through it. Looks like one of yours may have broken off completely.

[PJT]

18 minutes ago, 145 Squadron said:

Could the mystery part be one of the slidebar supports? I have seen a couple of this type of loco where the crosshead fouled the support each time it passed through it. Looks like one of yours may have broken off completely.

 

That's exactly what it looks like to me, too, Robbie: the slidebar bracket from the right hand side of the loco, which would neatly tie in with the damage to the vacuum pump you mentioned in your original post.  I reckon the loco probably received an accidental blow in that area at some time between being assembled and put in the packaging.  If the bracket was twisted by the blow, that would account for your 'sticks every half a revolution' observation - as the crosshead fouled the bracket as it slid back and forth.  Eventually, as you handled it and dismantled the loco, the weakened bracket broke off completely.

 

Whatever, at least you have a working loco now.  Result!  And for the most part, a satisfying one - I suppose you've still got to decide whether to repair the broken bits yourself or leave them for someone else to do.

 

Pete T. 

[tomparryharry]

That 'U' shaped part is a motion bracket Rob. There is one each side, and in the real world, they are designed to keep the slide bars & crosshead on station. Judging by your photo, you will hopefully find one on the model, the other on your workbench.... Luckily, Peters Spares seem to keep things like this. I wonder why..... Usually, the part is a complete part, comprising cylinders, slidebars, and (hopefully unbroken) motion brackets!

 

Happy modelling,

Ian.

Edited June 26, 2020 by tomparryharry
Added text.

[robmcg]

On 26/06/2020 at 20:20, tomparryharry said:

That 'U' shaped part is a motion bracket Rob. There is one each side, and in the real world, they are designed to keep the slide bars & crosshead on station. Judging by your photo, you will hopefully find one on the model, the other on your workbench.... Luckily, Peters Spares seem to keep things like this. I wonder why..... Usually, the part is a complete part, comprising cylinders, slidebars, and (hopefully unbroken) motion brackets!

 

Happy modelling,

Ian.

 

Thanks Ian, PJT, 145 Squadron and others.

 

Will the model run safely without the slidebar motion bracket in place?   Does it clip in or need glue?  I will invert the model and see what I can see....   it runs very smoothly on my short up and down test track.

 

Here is today's photo, slightly edited to keep focus. 

 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by robmcg

[robmcg]

Further to the above and with my gratitude to all who have answered,  here is the other side of the Hall which I agree probably had received a knock to the slidebar area during or after manufacture..

 

With the support bracket now in a plastic bag with the vac piston rod, it feels very strong and secure and runs well, very smooth and quiet, 'straight from the box' as it were.

 

Here are photos of the engine and slidebar area without the support bracket, the slidebars feel very secure regardless.

 

 

 

The front bogie screw and coupling bar screw were put in without recourse to jelly, tack or magnetic magic, by a female with good eyes and deft fingers!

 

Now to create some magnificent scene befitting Collett and the GWR!  

[Coach bogie]

I have removed the motion bracket from mine. They are too fine to provide any real support, but with only one surface to fix to, they do fall off. I had a major pile up when a train hit a support bracket stuck in a point.

 

I use the cylinder packs mentioned for kit construction replacing the cast ones in SEF/Wills Saint kits. Shorting bogie wheels no more.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[tomparryharry]

8 hours ago, Coach bogie said:

I have removed the motion bracket from mine. They are too fine to provide any real support, but with only one surface to fix to, they do fall off. I had a major pile up when a train hit a support bracket stuck in a point.

 

I use the cylinder packs mentioned for kit construction replacing the cast ones in SEF/Wills Saint kits. Shorting bogie wheels no more.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Hello Mike, with regard to the cylinder packs, are they the ones I alluded to earlier?

 

Cheers,

Ian.

[Coach bogie]

Yes. I bought the packs from Peter's Spares. I think he has sold out at the  moment as kit builders picked up how the Hornby spares can be used. I have plenty of the black plastic brackets in the spares bin. As mentioned previously they provide no noticeable support.On the full size Hall/Saint they are bolted to the frames.  I drop a bit of super glue on the slidebars where they fit into the cylinders to stop any movement.

 

Mike Wiltshire

Edited June 27, 2020 by Coach bogie

[tomparryharry]

I have an ancient 72xx (Jamieson?) which I'm still rebuilding. The cyliders & crosshead are a real PITA, so thanks for the tip.

 

Cheers