Stephenson's Rocket Second Class Blue Coach •Exclusive•

[JeremyKarl]

16 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Here's a point, do any proud owners of one of the Hornby Firsts happen to know their weight?

 

 

Each carriage is about 18g and the loco and tender with a Hornby DCC chip in the barrel comes in at 45g. (I would give a more precise value but I only have a balance weighing to nearest 1g at home.)

 

I've ordered a "wagon" style coach already - any idea of the weight? I've no idea how much this little loco can pull.

Jeremy

Edited June 26, 2020 by JeremyKarl

[Florence Locomotive Works]

On 25/06/2020 at 12:30, Edwardian said:

 

No disrespect to Dr Newman, but the comparison is one of chalk and cheese. Where Dr Newman has designed for OO gauge, the results are superb, but, as is fair enough, he is mainly interested in his chosen scale and, so, most of the OO gauge range is supersized from his N Gauge designs.  That can leave the detail and proportion a little 'out' for OO gauge. For instance, I bought the Lion 'scratch-aid'.  I found it required a lot of work, and even found myself re-cladding the boiler with about 3 of my planks to one of his!  You need, therefore, to take literally the term 'scratch-aid'.  

 

It was an absorbing and enjoyable process, however!

 

 

 

 

Not a fan of the Hornby coupling system, but the Rails ones need to be capable of running with the Rocket set and they will be designed to do so.

 

Might I ask who’s outside cranks you used? Bit random I know.
 

thanks, 

Douglas

[Edwardian]

6 minutes ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Might I ask who’s outside cranks you used? Bit random I know.
 

thanks, 

Douglas

 

Hornby 08 driving wheels, cranks and rods

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, JeremyKarl said:

Each carriage is about 18g and the loco and tender with a Hornby DCC chip in the barrel comes in at 45g. (I would give a more precise value but I only have a balance weighing to nearest 1g at home.)

 

I've ordered a "wagon" style coach already - any idea of the weight? I've no idea how much this little loco can pull.

Jeremy

 

Many thanks.  We need to decide how much weight to build in. 

[Jammy2305]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Here's a point, do any proud owners of one of the Hornby Firsts happen to know their weight?

 

 

 

 

@Edwardian 

[Jammy2305]

Oops! Helps if I look on Page 2! Apologies for duplicating the answer! 

[Roy Langridge]

12 hours ago, jamesC37LG said:

Oops! Helps if I look on Page 2! Apologies for duplicating the answer! 

Look at the positive, at least we now know they are a consistent weight 

 

Roy

[Colin_McLeod]

Rails coach now pre ordered. I had already obtained a Shapeways version but have not built it up yet. I think I will modify the Shapeways one to include the lightweight roof.  Rule one informs me that they did not roof all the coaches in the one shift, so they may well have been seen together.

 

If Rocket won't pull all five vehicles, I wonder could one of the coaches be discreetly motorised.

 

Does anyone know of a source of appropriate 'little people' with top hats etc?

 

 

.

Edited June 27, 2020 by Colin_McLeod
Correcting auto correct.

[tractionman]

15 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

 

Does anyone know of a source of appropriate 'little people' with top hats etc?

 

 

.

 

Some top-hatted types here:

 

https://www.acstadden.co.uk/shop-3

 

cheers,

 

Keith

 

 

 

 

 

[Bucoops]

48 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Does anyone know of a source of appropriate 'little people' with top hats etc?

 

 

.

 

https://www.modelu3d.co.uk/product-category/finescale-figures/ragged-victorians/ 

[autocoach]

On 27/06/2020 at 01:31, Bucoops said:

 

https://www.modelu3d.co.uk/product-category/finescale-figures/ragged-victorians/ 

Aren't those "ragged Victorians" fit only for a 3rd class standing only...

[Bucoops]

11 hours ago, autocoach said:

Aren't those "ragged Victorians" fit only for a 3rd class standing only...

 

Just break their legs. They'll soon sit down

[Edwardian]

Staddens are I think 1850s-1860s.  The Ragged Victorians look similar and, by definition, both ranges are too modern.

 

In many respects the 1830s is 'late Regency' in stylistic terms.  Ladies' skirts have plumped out - no Empire line muslin now - but the Gents are still a sort of puff-sleeved version of Mr Darcy, with the  tail-coat still in evidence along with the newer frock-coat.

 

[JSpencer]

On 27/06/2020 at 09:43, Colin_McLeod said:

If Rocket won't pull all five vehicles, I wonder could one of the coaches be discreetly motorised.

 

 

 

 

Most photo's I have seen, never show the replica with more than 2 coaches. I'll probably run mine along side Bluebell engines with 1 closed and 1 open coach or 2 closed coaches. Granted she may have run with more than that on the L&M but I suspect their coaches were really based on stage coach practice while the replicas on 1930s railway wagon practice with somwhat heavier scantlings.

 

To me, the crude drawings  done in the 1830s tend to hint at the rather light weight construction of stage coaches with wheels set at stage coach distances apart. While 1930 replicas share more in common with robust 1930s wagon design which would resist the knocks and rigures of 1930s railway practice, that would easily crush an 1830s stage coach design to smitherines. 

[PaulRhB]

32 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

, the crude drawings  done in the 1830s tend to hint at the rather light weight construction of stage coaches with wheels set at stage coach distances apart. While 1930 replicas share more in common with robust 1930s wagon design which would resist the knocks and rigures of 1930s railway practice, that would easily crush an 1830s stage coach design to smitherines. 

So they’d been hauling minerals in long trains for several years, collisions certainly weren’t unknown as Rockets recorded accidents prove and from some drawings people think the coaches were totally spindly matchwood?

There would be regular disasters with records of many maimed if this were true surely?

Apart from drawings we know to be notoriously stylistic from the locos we have actual drawings of what is the evidence for coaches so light framed they’d be ‘smashed to smithereens’?

From what I’ve read the bodywork may well have been closely based on thin coachwork but they were probably on fairly standard wagon style frames. This type of design of sturdy wooden chassis and lightweight body lasted over 100 years and was responsible for many deaths due to telescoping right up to the fairly late 1900’s. 
So in a serious accident that caused buffers to ride over they may well have been smashed but then so were 1930’s wagons despite a sturdy frame. 
 

[JSpencer]

11 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

So they’d been hauling minerals in long trains for several years, collisions certainly weren’t unknown as Rockets recorded accidents prove and from some drawings people think the coaches were totally spindly matchwood?

There would be regular disasters with records of many maimed if this were true surely?

Apart from drawings we know to be notoriously stylistic from the locos we have actual drawings of what is the evidence for coaches so light framed they’d be ‘smashed to smithereens’?

From what I’ve read the bodywork may well have been closely based on thin coachwork but they were probably on fairly standard wagon style frames. This type of design of sturdy wooden chassis and lightweight body lasted over 100 years and was responsible for many deaths due to telescoping right up to the fairly late 1900’s. 
So in a serious accident that caused buffers to ride over they may well have been smashed but then so were 1930’s wagons despite a sturdy frame. 
 

 

No, my point was that I doubt they would have been as robust as their 1930s counterparts. Design practices of the 1830s were entirely different to the 1930s. The latter drawing upon 100+ years of railway designs and experience, the former still pretty much experimenting. I did not say they were made from match wood, just that trains were moving a lot faster (at least thrice as fast) and heavier in 1930 than in 1830. 

[PaulRhB]

6 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

No, my point was that I doubt they would have been as robust as their 1930s counterparts. Design practices of the 1830s were entirely different to the 1930s. The latter drawing upon 100+ years of railway designs and experience, the former still pretty much experimenting.
 

 

6 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

I did not say they were made from match wood,

No I used that term in response to this 

13 hours ago, JSpencer said:

would easily crush an 1830s stage coach design to smitherines. 
 

While we don’t have any coaches that early there are sources saying they were based on wagon chassis, including just bench seats added to wagons, and there are extant examples of those that are very similar to wagon chassis 100 years later with longitudinal beam chassis of similar size wood. 

 

13 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

6 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

just that trains were moving a lot faster (at least thrice as fast) and heavier in 1930 than in 1830. 

 

12 hours ago, JSpencer said:

While 1930 replicas share more in common with robust 1930s wagon design

But you compared them to wagon design not coaches that travelled at the higher speeds you mention  Most goods stock still only travelled at 20-40mph in the 30’s as it was unfitted so only 10mph faster which is as fast as the replicas were intended to travel. 
 I would concur that locomotive design was significantly different allowing heavier trains but I would contend signalling interlocking, electric over gas lighting and improved braking systems had far more effect on the safety by making crashes less likely than advances in stock design protecting passengers. In the 30’s you were still looking at wooden frames on a large percentage of rolling stock as steel frames were only just becoming the new standard. Thanks to experience in naval, buildings and early wagon design the woodwork was of similar quality and quite sophisticated early too.
The original bodies were indeed lightweight but then they were barely if at all stronger over 100 years later as proved in crashes where wooden bodied coaches telescoped like at Harrow & Wealdstone. Coaches had got bigger as the locos were more powerful but the frames were supported by truss bracing for the greater span between bogies and the body wasn’t structural until much later. 
Crash worthiness of the vehicle itself only became a major design driver post WW2 and it was the 70’s before significant improvements were achieved. I’d contend due to the lower speeds the original coaches would probably hold up just as well as the replicas in a crash. Many early crashes fatalities were down to the subsequent fires from gas and oil lighting rather than structural vehicle designs. 
I just believe from what I’ve read that the L&M designs would have been relatively similar structurally, if not in size, to much later stock. There’s little doubt that certain operators of the early days made some appalling cheap designs to cash in but if the L&M were just stage coaches on rail wheels they wouldn’t have stood up to  use in multi vehicle trains and their designers were experienced railwaymen who’d designed rolling stock for several years in industrial use which would have seen long heavy trains too. 

[Watto1990]

Oh no. 

[MAURICE040947]

Now competing head to head with Hornby again.

Hornby flyer today

L&MR OPEN THIRD CLASS CARRIAGE

We are pleased to announce the introduction of the L&MR, Open Third Class Carriage.

 

Researched, designed and tooled at the same time as Hornby’s centenary Stephenson’s Rocket and coaches, the finely detailed period railway carriage makes a perfect addition to the assembled rake.

 

As with the 1st Class coaches, the finely detailed 3rd Class open topped railway carriage features etched brass components and separately fitted parts, all of which adds a fidelity to the model that perfectly complements the exquisite finesse associated with the previously released Stephenson’s Rocket and coaches.

[scottrains29]

Is there much difference between second and third class versions?

[Hroth]

I think it's that some call them seconds and some thirds. They're the same vehicle. 2nd Class is probably more appropriate, they're 2nds if pulled by Rocket, 3rds if pulled by Lion.

Edited July 1, 2020 by Hroth

[Pre Grouping fan]

If they are the same vehicle, then could you appropriately call it either 2nd or 3rd class? 

[Rockalaucher101]

If this is being produced by rails then I may have some bad news https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/l-mr-open-third-class-carriage-era-1.html?utm_campaign=2708609_Hornby - R40141 - Week 14 2020%2F2021&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Hornby PLC&_%24ja=tsid%3A71284&dm_i=2DJZ,1M1Z5,9JECTI,5GW4D,1

 

Just got an email about the above. Now if it's the same thing and I've missed something then never mind but if Hornby and Rails are competing again...

[mozzer models]

Just now, Rockalaucher101 said:

If this is being produced by rails then I may have some bad news https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/l-mr-open-third-class-carriage-era-1.html?utm_campaign=2708609_Hornby - R40141 - Week 14 2020%2F2021&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Hornby PLC&_%24ja=tsid%3A71284&dm_i=2DJZ,1M1Z5,9JECTI,5GW4D,1

 

Just got an email about the above. Now if it's the same thing and I've missed something then never mind but if Hornby and Rails are competing again...

the Hornby one is 1/2 the price of the rails one so not the same

[Pre Grouping fan]

1 minute ago, Rockalaucher101 said:

If this is being produced by rails then I may have some bad news https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/l-mr-open-third-class-carriage-era-1.html?utm_campaign=2708609_Hornby - R40141 - Week 14 2020%2F2021&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Hornby PLC&_%24ja=tsid%3A71284&dm_i=2DJZ,1M1Z5,9JECTI,5GW4D,1

 

Just got an email about the above. Now if it's the same thing and I've missed something then never mind but if Hornby and Rails are competing again...

Hornby have just announced their own version. Almost 2.5x cheaper than the rails model. The only difference is the Rails models is 2nd class and 3D Printed and Hornby's is 3rd class and tooled ready to go.