The GWR Armstrong 4-4-0: How to go about building one?

[Florence Locomotive Works]

I’ve always had a soft spot for Armstrong’s engines, not sure why. And I’ve always admired the photo of GWR No. 16 Brunel (my personal favorite) sitting in a yard somewhere. I had looked building one thinking that the Keyser kit was readily available. It wasn’t. In fact there were very very few made. So I think my next best option would be to hack up a 4mm Dean Single into something that resembles an Armstrong 4-4-0. It doesn’t have to be completely accurate, as it might become part of a freelance railway at any moment. So your suggestions, comments and advice would be much appreciated.

[Justang]

For the chassis you could modify and motorise a Dapol City of Truro chassis or use the branchlines chassis kit.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

4 minutes ago, Justang said:

For the chassis you could modify and motorise a Dapol City of Truro chassis or use the branchlines chassis kit.

That’s not a bad idea actually. The big problem is the curved frames and taking out the belpaire firebox.

[Lochgorm]

This has been done before using Tri-ang Lords of the Isles.  Hopefully somebody can point you in the direction of the 50+ year old copy of the Railway Modeller (or other contemporary magazine) in which this has been written up.
 

Charlie

[lofty1966]

3 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

That’s not a bad idea actually. The big problem is the curved frames and taking out the belpaire firebox.

What belpaire firebox?

Lord of the Isles has a roundtop one.

Use a Branchlines chassis or if you have an old Triang Nellie, use the chassis from that.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

11 minutes ago, lofty1966 said:

What belpaire firebox?

Lord of the Isles has a roundtop one.

Use a Branchlines chassis or if you have an old Triang Nellie, use the chassis from that.

I was referring to City of Truros firebox.

[lofty1966]

3 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

I was referring to City of Truros firebox.

There's not a lot that would be of use from that kit at all.

[PatB]

4 hours ago, Lochgorm said:

This has been done before using Tri-ang Lords of the Isles.  Hopefully somebody can point you in the direction of the 50+ year old copy of the Railway Modeller (or other contemporary magazine) in which this has been written up.
 

Charlie

ISTR there was even a thread on RMWeb in the last few years. The result was rather nice.

 

For the more ambitious/brave, the cover photo of my copy of Guy Williams' seminal work on 4mm Locomotive Construction is, I think, an Armstrong 4-4-0, so if you've got an old biscuit tin, some K&S brass, an old X04, a soldering iron in place of an index finger and about 10 years free, you could try going old-school.

Edited June 26, 2020 by PatB
Got my GWR CMEs confused

[Jeff Smith]

I see you are on the Western side of the pond like me so getting parts is a long distance effort....  Is this for OO, EM or P4?

 

Do you have a drawing - perhaps someone could design a 3D one?

Edited June 26, 2020 by Jeff Smith

[Florence Locomotive Works]

10 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

I see you are on the Western side of the pond like me so getting parts is a long distance effort....  Is this for OO, EM or P4?

 

Do you have a drawing - perhaps someone could design a 3D one?

OO, I see you have also been looking at that Keyser dean goods. I’ve been uming and ahing over it for two years now. If this 4-4-0 falls through then I probably buy it finally, I made a beyer goods by them and it was half decent. I would just go by eye, instead of a drawing. I find it easier, and normally costs less.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Florence Locomotive Works

[Jeff Smith]

I paid $95 for a Ks 63xx from California as you may have noted.  I certainly wouldn't pay any more for the Dean Goods.  When these two kits first came onto eBay I emailed the seller to point out how overpriced they were and got a very negative response....

 

Have you built a Ks loco before, the chassis are almost impossible to get to work satisfactorily.  Comet does a decent looking etched replacement for the loco and the tender.

[Londontram]

7 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

I would just go by eye, instead of a drawing. I find it easier, and normally costs less.

I think if it looks right then it is right

 

   i'm not adverse to altering a body by moving the splashers by a mm or two to fit a RTR chassis.

 I've recently drawn a Caledonian railway single and have stretched the whole loco by a couple of mm to fit a Bachmann Emily chassis which I will be building in the future if I hadn't told you you probably would never have noticed when the model is built .

[Florence Locomotive Works]

9 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

I paid $95 for a Ks 63xx from California as you may have noted.  I certainly wouldn't pay any more for the Dean Goods.  When these two kits first came onto eBay I emailed the seller to point out how overpriced they were and got a very negative response....

 

Have you built a Ks loco before, the chassis are almost impossible to get to work satisfactorily.  Comet does a decent looking etched replacement for the loco and the tender.

I built a Beyer goods, a very late model of such a kit, and the chassis was great. I later converted the engine into a LCDR Small Scotchman, and it still runs great. I think the motors have a lot to do with the overall performance. Mine one was the last type K’s produced, and it’s not half bad, but can get hot easily.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

3 hours ago, Londontram said:

I think if it looks right then it is right

 

   i'm not adverse to altering a body by moving the splashers by a mm or two to fit a RTR chassis.

 I've recently drawn a Caledonian railway single and have stretched the whole loco by a couple of mm to fit a Bachmann Emily chassis which I will be building in the future if I hadn't told you you probably would never have noticed when the model is built .

I’m also thinking of doing a LCDR Europa, as there’s a body kit for one on Shapeways. I’m not sure what I would do about frames and wheels though, being so far from Alan Gibson’s garden of plenty during these strange times. There are a few Gibson wheels in the USA, but non the right size I think.

[Justang]

13 hours ago, lofty1966 said:

There's not a lot that would be of use from that kit at all.

 

The main part of the Dapol kit which i thought would be useful is the outside frames and possibly parts of the tender. I agree that for the actual, working chassis, a nellie chassis might be the way to go.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

After much scientific research I believe the easiest way to proceed is buy a Bachmann city class, and a Nellie body. These would be swapped and a second splashed made on the Nellie. Unfortunately it’s not cheap. So I’m not sure if I will proceed. 

[lofty1966]

11 hours ago, Justang said:

 

The main part of the Dapol kit which i thought would be useful is the outside frames and possibly parts of the tender. I agree that for the actual, working chassis, a nellie chassis might be the way to go.

If you look at the picture in the original post, the frames on an Armstrong 4-4-0 are achievable using two Lord of the Isles bodies and the tender can be detailed up as well.

A City has completely different frames/splashers and boiler.

The City kits tender would need the upper sides removing, easier to just go with an "Isles" tender imo.

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by lofty1966
added info

[Florence Locomotive Works]

20 minutes ago, lofty1966 said:

If you look at the picture in the original post, the frames on an Armstrong 4-4-0 are achievable using two Lord of the Isles bodies and the tender can be detailed up as well.

A City has completely different frames/splashers and boiler.

The City kits tender would need the upper sides removing, easier to just go with an "Isles" tender imo.

 

I’ve had a think about all this, and decided I have too many other projects to do, so this is going on hold for now.

[DCB]

On 25/06/2020 at 23:13, lofty1966 said:

What belpaire firebox?

Lord of the Isles has a roundtop one.

Use a Branchlines chassis or if you have an old Triang Nellie, use the chassis from that.

Pretty sure Nellie is 8ft 3" wheelbase the same as the back of the Jinty.   Armstrong is the same wheelbase as the Jinty and King in full size but Triang decided to save a fraction of an old pee and shorten it 1 mm.

The later K's motor is great, as log as you have four for a BoBo diesel or six for a CoCo. Otherwise a cast loco and cast tender Is about all it can reliably drag around.   The earlier larger one is good as long as its geared down well and allowed to rev its head off.

Truro Chassis (I expect the wheels are undersize for a 6 ft 8" City let alone for the 7ft Armsrong) and two Lord or the Isles bodies should provide enough raw material for an Armstrong.   The OP mentioned free lance, one would look good in BR lined black with red coupling rods and a belpaire firebox, well perhaps not.   Some joker proposed a 4-6-0 version and I believe a model may even have been made.   Three lord of the Isles?

[Londontram]

If as the original poster says he's happy to keep it loose scale then I agree with David in the last post.

Carefull cutting and shutting of two Lord of the isles bodies and a Nellie chassis would be a good starting point for what could look a good copy of the Armstrong.

 The Lord of the isles splashers look a tad to tall due no doubt to the Lords wheels being 7ft 8inces or in model terms 28mm which are 8inces or 2mm larger that the Armstrong 7ft ones. You'll need to change the wheels to Markets ones with there extended cranks but you might be able to use the Nellie's own con rods but with the splashers as long as the overall balance looks right it should be ok which I believe it will.

 

 I once saw two Airfix 4F grafted together on a 9F chassis make a very passable 0-10-0 licky banker the only visual fault was the 9F chassis having only a single slide bar unlike the Midland style double ones apart from that it looked very good, so all it just takes is the will to do it and the vision in your minds eye.

Edited June 27, 2020 by Londontram
Spelling correction

[lofty1966]

9 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

Pretty sure Nellie is 8ft 3" wheelbase the same as the back of the Jinty.   Armstrong is the same wheelbase as the Jinty and King in full size but Triang decided to save a fraction of an old pee and shorten it 1 mm.

The later K's motor is great, as log as you have four for a BoBo diesel or six for a CoCo. Otherwise a cast loco and cast tender Is about all it can reliably drag around.   The earlier larger one is good as long as its geared down well and allowed to rev its head off.

Truro Chassis (I expect the wheels are undersize for a 6 ft 8" City let alone for the 7ft Armsrong) and two Lord or the Isles bodies should provide enough raw material for an Armstrong.   The OP mentioned free lance, one would look good in BR lined black with red coupling rods and a belpaire firebox, well perhaps not.   Some joker proposed a 4-6-0 version and I believe a model may even have been made.   Three lord of the Isles?

Many years  back I started a City of Truro plastic kit and the Nellie chassis was used as (if I recall correctly )it had the same wheel  base.

Never finished the kit. No idea what happened to it.

[Jeff Smith]

GWRJ Issue 6 has a frame diagram and brief history of the Armstrong class.  Not too far out from the City class.  All four were renumbered and had Belpaire fireboxes and tapered boilers fitted between 1905 and 1911.  Brunel No.14 (4169) was the last to be withdrawn in 1930.

[Londontram]

On 27/06/2020 at 15:19, Jeff Smith said:

 All had Belpaire fireboxes and tapered boilers fitted between 1905 and 1911.  Brunel No.14 (4169) was the last to be withdrawn in 1930.

They had smaller wheels fitted at the same time. 

 Well the temptation is to great so I've started collecting parts for a possible build.

  I've got a Nellie chassis so need to get a set of 4 Romford/markits 28mm wheels along with the outside cranks, the front bogie (got) Two spare Lord of the Isles bodies to cut and shut to make the Armstrong body and was thinking as this will be fairly loose scale a GBL T9 tender tank (also got) cut down on the original Lord of the Isles tender chassis. 

 It will take a few weeks to get most of the bits together but it hopefully should make a nice and fairly simple loco to build with so many of the parts available.

  Those that recall some of my Caledonian loco builds will know I've  started with far less sometimes.

 

 I'd like to build it as it would of been cir. 1900

[Florence Locomotive Works]

3 hours ago, Londontram said:

They had smaller wheels fitted at the same time. 

 Well the temptation is to great so I've started collecting parts for a possible build.

  I've got a Nellie chassis so need to get a set of 4 Romford/markits 28mm wheels along with the outside cranks, the front bogie (got) Two spare Lord of the Isles bodies to cut and shut to make the Armstrong body and was thinking as this will be fairly loose scale a GBL T9 tender tank (also got) cut down on the original Lord of the Isles tender chassis. 

 It will take a few weeks to get most of the bits together but it hopefully should make a nice and fairly simple loco to build with so many of the parts available.

  Those that recall some of my Caledonian loco builds will know I've  started with far less sometimes.

 

 I'd like to build it as it would of been cir. 1900

Best of luck, I shall watch with interest from abroad.

[1466]

I’m minded to ask the helpful people at Peco to identify the article about kit bashing 2 Lord of the Isles into one of these elegant locos .They have been amazing at sending copies of half remembered items before .

Hattons have Lord of the Isles at around £80 .