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L-Shaped Problem - Track Plan Help!


Leander45690
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1 minute ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

It seems counterintuitive, but it may work better to have the terminus on the shorter leg and the fiddleyard/traverser on the longer leg with, of course, curved platforms.

Would this cause a potential problem with length of train and/or pointwork being on a curve?

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1 hour ago, Leander45690 said:

Would this cause a potential problem with length of train and/or pointwork being on a curve?

 

No, it's easy to build a curved station throat with a mix of large radius and curved Streamline turnouts.

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1 hour ago, Leander45690 said:

Would this cause a potential problem with length of train and/or pointwork being on a curve?

In a word no.

The great advantage of a curved or angled throat is that it becomes very easy to avoid the perennial problem of double track termini which is the reverse curves on the two crossovers you need to give multiple platforms access to both up and down lines. Unless you've got the length for larger radius points buffer locking (real or apparent) becomes a problem. This was the problem that Cyril Freezer almost solved with Minories with all but one of the six possible routes between the three platforms and the two main line tracks having at least the length of a point between reverse curves but one route still had that issue. With Streamline I'm not sure about using curved points because the smaller radius is a  lot less than the nominal three foot radius of a medium length point.

926476123_minoriescurvedequivalent.jpg.3a4cec1f1102f82ef2bcbdc2783b1646.jpg

 

This is the shortest possible throat for a three platform terminus (it's actually the same length as a two platform throat) To add a fourth platform you can just extend the short bay at the top as a departures only or add an extra platform at the bottom which can then be used for both arrivals and departures but at the cost of slightly shortening the lower two platforms. If you follow each route through you can see that there are no reverse curves anywhere in the throat so there's far less need for longer points.

 

 

 

 

 

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41 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Here's an example that I drew up for someone else

MillbayMinories4a.png

 

You'd want to use the long side for your FY if you did something like this, so it would need to be mirrored for your space.

This looks like a very promising possibility! Thanks, I'll see what I can do to make it work.

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11 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

In a word no.

The great advantage of a curved or angled throat is that it becomes very easy to avoid the perennial problem of double track termini which is the reverse curves on the two crossovers you need to give multiple platforms access to both up and down lines. Unless you've got the length for larger radius points buffer locking (real or apparent) becomes a problem. This was the problem that Cyril Freezer almost solved with Minories with all but one of the six possible routes between the three platforms and the two main line tracks having at least the length of a point between reverse curves but one route still had that issue. With Streamline I'm not sure about using curved points because the smaller radius is a  lot less than the nominal three foot radius of a medium length point.

926476123_minoriescurvedequivalent.jpg.3a4cec1f1102f82ef2bcbdc2783b1646.jpg

 

This is the shortest possible throat for a three platform terminus (it's actually the same length as a two platform throat) To add a fourth platform you can just extend the short bay at the top as a departures only or add an extra platform at the bottom which can then be used for both arrivals and departures but at the cost of slightly shortening the lower two platforms. If you follow each route through you can see that there are no reverse curves anywhere in the throat so there's far less need for longer points.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks David. Throats have always been my problem in trying to make sure that I get access to platforms that I need to get access to. This is very informative on how to design a throat and the practicalities.

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The designs look like you are going to have to put the station on the short arm of the L to get an adequate fiddle yard.

If you have carriage sidings on the outgoing side of the station you avoid problems with getting ECS into the top platform which arise if the Minories loco spur becomes a platform. Its much more convenient to shunt along the out going road than incoming.

If the radius comes down to 2ft and you don't mind a 3 way point then Minories can become   a 5 platform station with arrivals at 3/4/5 not conflicting with departures from 1/2 and carriage sidings. Minories was about loco coming in with train and another loco taking it back out immediately.  Most stations train arrived,  Pilot loco removed stock, loco ran to shed.  Train was cleaned. pilot set train back in departure platform and loco appeared from shed to take it out after pilot had gone. All plaforms need access to departure line but arrivals platform only need access from incoming line. Chetenham St James has access to all 4 platforms from departurs road but only 3 and 4 from arrivals was quite typical.   More bloated Minories in doodle

Screenshot (387).png

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20 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

The designs look like you are going to have to put the station on the short arm of the L to get an adequate fiddle yard.

If you have carriage sidings on the outgoing side of the station you avoid problems with getting ECS into the top platform which arise if the Minories loco spur becomes a platform. Its much more convenient to shunt along the out going road than incoming.

If the radius comes down to 2ft and you don't mind a 3 way point then Minories can become   a 5 platform station with arrivals at 3/4/5 not conflicting with departures from 1/2 and carriage sidings. Minories was about loco coming in with train and another loco taking it back out immediately.  Most stations train arrived,  Pilot loco removed stock, loco ran to shed.  Train was cleaned. pilot set train back in departure platform and loco appeared from shed to take it out after pilot had gone. All plaforms need access to departure line but arrivals platform only need access from incoming line. Chetenham St James has access to all 4 platforms from departurs road but only 3 and 4 from arrivals was quite typical.   More bloated Minories in doodle

Screenshot (387).png

 

This has similarities with Birkenhead Woodside, which, with Glasgow St Enoch, is one of the prime UK examples of a terminus at the end of a curve.

 

I rather like the way that it has longer platforms for main line trains to each side (arrival side/departure side) with a shorter platform for suburban trains in the middle - a mini-Euston. Worth a bit more development as an idea albeit not likely to be achievable in the space that the OP has.

 

I think that I would want either to leave out the loco run round or give it its own centre road.

Edited by Joseph_Pestell
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Has anyone looked at this?

1071740076_LiverpoolCentral.png.3f7d25033d122f8cdb82111c95d0d981.png

Liverpool Central was crammed into a restricted space, the station throat extended out into the tunnel and all long trains needed shunting after arrival. The centre road actually went all the way to Brunswick but was mostly used for carriage shunting at this end.

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It's very difficult to fit the essential elements into your L shaped space but here's an attempt to rebalance thing a bit:

2099718069_Leander456902a.png.c6b5d2daef83b0facc726e049d08b89f.png

  • Similar to Zomboid's last plan and that's because they are both Minories-on-the-curve. (We're not obsessed with it, honest!)
  • Two carriage sidings where the loco spur was in Minories and only 3 platforms to try to decongest things.
  • Platform 1 is single sided with a fence along the back.
  • No loco release crossovers - there isn't room, really. Needs a pilot loco.
  • Pilot loco shed making use of top right corner, outside the main curve, accessed from traverser to separate it from the main curve and save a turnout.
  • Inner curve just above traverser is R3.
  • Kickback sidings use space inside the main curve for goods/industry.
  • 6-road traverser just under 5ft long. All roads can be connected to both inbound and outbound.
  • It's all a bit square but it's mainly drawn to see what would actually fit!
Edited by Harlequin
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51 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

It's very difficult to fit the essential elements into your L shaped space but here's an attempt:

 

I think it would be worth rearranging that on the lines of Borchester Market, with kickback goods top right and loco yard (not a full shed) on the inside of the curve to see how it goes (31A's Finsbury Square has the goods like that too).  

 

Also see the way Liverpool Central fizzles out into short platforms and loading docks which imo adds character as well as operational interest - in this case they would be below platform 3 which is technically the wrong side but probably not unworkable.

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2 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

 

 

Also see the way Liverpool Central fizzles out into short platforms and loading docks which imo adds character as well as operational interest - in this case they would be below platform 3 which is technically the wrong side but probably not unworkable.

It always looks as if the CLC was trying to fit as much as possible into the available space! I'm not sure what all these short sidings were actually used for, photos only show the odd van in them. The loco sidings were tightly squeezed in as well but there was room (just) for a 70ft turntable in later years.

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All looks like variations on the Minories theme to me which could all be reduced to the just the station throat and perhaps a few inches of platforms and ramps with all the lines rolling round in a loop.

 

All depends what you want from the layout either an S&T Excercise or a A-B shuttle.

 

With modern Multiple Unit stock the S&T Excercise probably makes sense if the signals and points use simplified interlocked making things a little more of a challenge to set routes than just having a roundy roundy or A-B shuttle.

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28 minutes ago, Sturminster_Newton said:

All looks like variations on the Minories theme to me which could all be reduced to the just the station throat and perhaps a few inches of platforms and ramps with all the lines rolling round in a loop.

 

Each to his own I suppose???

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2 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

It always looks as if the CLC was trying to fit as much as possible into the available space!

 

A bit like us then.  Do they post on RMweb?

 

2 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

I'm not sure what all these short sidings were actually used for, photos only show the odd van in them. The loco sidings were tightly squeezed in as well but there was room (just) for a 70ft turntable in later years.

 

Perishable goods possibly?  There's a plan of the steam age Birmingham New Street showing the fish sidings at: https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrbns_str1310c.htm

 

Probably included a horse and carriage dock too.

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Yes, that's about what I thought. Working Herculaneum Dock we do send the odd short van train to Central - the terminus was the original layout plan, HD was its extension, until I realised that it would be just about unexhibitable.

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Development:

1870875128_Leander456902b.png.95d73ede54cf21229bed1f1c13609cee.png

 

Still a bit square...

More flexible loco yard including turntable(!)

Run round loop more like Leander's plan to make goods handling a bit easier.

Traverser as before but very slightly shorter to allow the entire station to move down a bit and give room for something low-relief behind the carriage sidings.

 

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23 hours ago, Sturminster_Newton said:

All looks like variations on the Minories theme to me which could all be reduced to the just the station throat and perhaps a few inches of platforms and ramps with all the lines rolling round in a loop.

 

 

That's because Minories is a cleverly cranked version of the shortest possible throat made up of simple turnouts for a three or more platform terminus with each platform connected to both sides of a main line. However it's cranked, curved or angled, it's still a facing crossover with the access points for the third platform tucked beneath it followed by a trailing crossover- total length four turnouts. Unless you use a slip or a scissors crossover you simply can't do it in a shorter length than that and, since we're always fighting length, why would we use a longer arrangement of pointwork.  

Edited by Pacific231G
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19 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Development:

1870875128_Leander456902b.png.95d73ede54cf21229bed1f1c13609cee.png

 

Still a bit square...

More flexible loco yard including turntable(!)

Run round loop more like Leander's plan to make goods handling a bit easier.

Traverser as before but very slightly shorter to allow the entire station to move down a bit and give room for something low-relief behind the carriage sidings.

 

Wow Phil, this is incredible! Exactly what I was looking for and gets everything in. How do you do it?!

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Would this still work if the fiddle yard was on the left?

i.e the 9' across the top and 10' down the right hand side.

This would mean trains arriving on the outside of the curve and departures on the inside curve.

The reason i ask is that I have a room of these dimensions with a fixed roundy but want to remove this and replace with something that could be made portable and free up the rest of the room. I've been looking at doing a minories variant for some time now and this looks like it could fit the bill.

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13 minutes ago, tender said:

Would this still work if the fiddle yard was on the left?

i.e the 9' across the top and 10' down the right hand side.

This would mean trains arriving on the outside of the curve and departures on the inside curve.

The reason i ask is that I have a room of these dimensions with a fixed roundy but want to remove this and replace with something that could be made portable and free up the rest of the room. I've been looking at doing a minories variant for some time now and this looks like it could fit the bill.

A layout along these lines could be designed which would work in that space, for sure.

Edited by Zomboid
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Here's another variation.

If, like me, you like centre roads more than is strictly sensible, you might be interested in this - the arrangement of centre roads is stolen from Bath Green Park, but the throat is nothing like it:

LeanderGP.png.365f85046eb1a3e89be9b432625d9f83.png

I'd enviasge the suburban trains going to/from Platform 2/3, and longer distance ones generally use Platform 1.

Access to the turntable is via the centre road/ carriage sidings, which isn't necessarily ideal. It could probably be arranged so that it'll also come from the traverser, but I haven't had time for that.

The loading dock could be another platform if extended towards the industry, but I'd question how realistic it would be to take an industry from a platform road. Not impossible I guess, but I'd just ditch the industry if I wanted to do that.

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3 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Here's another variation.

If, like me, you like centre roads more than is strictly sensible, you might be interested in this - the arrangement of centre roads is stolen from Bath Green Park, but the throat is nothing like it:

LeanderGP.png.365f85046eb1a3e89be9b432625d9f83.png

I'd enviasge the suburban trains going to/from Platform 2/3, and longer distance ones generally use Platform 1.

Access to the turntable is via the centre road/ carriage sidings, which isn't necessarily ideal. It could probably be arranged so that it'll also come from the traverser, but I haven't had time for that.

The loading dock could be another platform if extended towards the industry, but I'd question how realistic it would be to take an industry from a platform road. Not impossible I guess, but I'd just ditch the industry if I wanted to do that.

That looks amazing Zomboid. I really am spoilt for choice now as there are so many different plans but they all do what I want!

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52 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Here's another variation.

If, like me, you like centre roads more than is strictly sensible, you might be interested in this - the arrangement of centre roads is stolen from Bath Green Park, but the throat is nothing like it:

LeanderGP.png.365f85046eb1a3e89be9b432625d9f83.png

I'd enviasge the suburban trains going to/from Platform 2/3, and longer distance ones generally use Platform 1.

Access to the turntable is via the centre road/ carriage sidings, which isn't necessarily ideal. It could probably be arranged so that it'll also come from the traverser, but I haven't had time for that.

The loading dock could be another platform if extended towards the industry, but I'd question how realistic it would be to take an industry from a platform road. Not impossible I guess, but I'd just ditch the industry if I wanted to do that.


You could run a hidden line from the Traverser through an engine shed to the turntable so you could access it from either the Traverser or the station if you wanted to turn engines without ever picking them up: Harlequin’s design shows this.  It would all depend how you released the locomotives from outbound trains that are now the far end of the Traverser.  Loco lifts or short cassettes are the common solution as they don’t require any space - strictly speaking you wouldn’t then need the line to the turntable, but I’d suggest keeping it in (the “why not?“ rule).  There’s no rule against having cassettes inset on a Traverser, though it would be beyond my carpentry.

Edited by Keith Addenbrooke
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