L-Shaped Problem - Track Plan Help!

[DCB]

That's a really useful plan, to mis quote Rev Awdrey.   I don't like that centre road.  Its neither fish nor fowl being both/either a carriage siding and a run round and needed for both purposes off peak. I would rather have the carriage siding against the top wall. Top platform coud also be used for storage off peak, and it would make cleaning the insides easier every second month or however infrequently BR cleaned them.

 It would lose the loco spur admittedly.

I would also move the goods run round to a bottom platform run round to increase the goods yard capacity, see my scrawly doodle on Zomboid's lovely drawing.  All these plans have the dead area inside the approach curve which is hard to use, a kick back means one  of the other sidings needs to be kept free as a head shunt so you don't gain any capacity.

The OP wanted 4 platforms

Edited July 2, 2020 by DavidCBroad

[tractionman]

I like that alot @DavidCBroad -- the TT still seems to loom too large in my eyes, and some other use for that same area I think would help, perhaps a mini KX-type stabling point for locos, with water and coal facilities run off a couple of kick-back sidings, perhaps with a separate entry/exit from/to the off-stage traverser, coming in from the opposite direction to the kick-back?

 

all the best,

 

Keith

 

[Zomboid]

I wouldn't do the centre road either. I do like me some centre roads, but I'm not sure it adds much in this context compared to some other options, and using the space for a carriage siding at the top is probably a better idea (reminds me of the wall siding at Marylebone). I'd try to keep the loco spur though, the idea of the plan was initially to rip off Buckingham using peco components, so I'd want to keep as many of the features of Buckingham as possible.

 

As for the dead area, I'd probably stick a bridge across the outward end of the platforms/ end of the throat, and have some scenery at street level. Which might prove utterly impractical,  but these dead areas are a feature of a corner layout if reasonable radius curves in the visible area are required, and it's probably wise to include some part of the layout without track on it.

 

I'd also move the turntable up and left, and have some kick back roads off the traverser in the space vacated, hidden under a row of superquick terraced houses or something. They'd only be about 3' long, but that would be enough for some non-full length trains.

[Zomboid]

1 minute ago, tractionman said:

I like that alot @DavidCBroad -- the TT still seems to loom too large in my eyes, and some other use for that same area I think would help, perhaps a mini KX-type stabling point for locos, with water and coal facilities run off a couple of kick-back sidings, perhaps with a separate entry/exit from/to the off-stage traverser, coming in from the opposite direction to the kick-back?

 

all the best,

 

Keith

 

The TT is ridiculously huge, it's just the one from the peco library in anyrail. If something that big will fit then there'll be no worries getting a more sensibly sized one in.

[Zomboid]

48 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

That's a really useful plan, to mis quote Rev Awdrey.   I don't like that centre road.  Its neither fish nor fowl being both/either a carriage siding and a run round and needed for both purposes off peak. I would rather have the carriage siding against the top wall. Top platform coud also be used for storage off peak, and it would make cleaning the insides easier every second month or however infrequently BR cleaned them.

 It would lose the loco spur admittedly.

I would also move the goods run round to a bottom platform run round to increase the goods yard capacity, see my scrawly doodle on Zomboid's lovely drawing.  All these plans have the dead area inside the approach curve which is hard to use, a kick back means one  of the other sidings needs to be kept free as a head shunt so you don't gain any capacity.

The OP wanted 4 platforms

 

Here's my offering based on that.

 

I'm sure the freight area could be improved, it's not really been something I've focussed on.

[Flying Pig]

15 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

 

Here's my offering based on that.

 

I'm sure the freight area could be improved, it's not really been something I've focussed on.

 

I like this, but if you wanted to copy Buckingham more closely, you could drop the loco release crossovers and rely completely on pilots: there would possibly be work for a couple of them and it's a busy enough site for them to look believable. 

 

Check the spacing of the goods headshunt as it looks too close to the down main.  Actually, given the tightness of the curve all the lines in this part may need wider spacing.  The turntable and its headshuntmay be a wee bit close to the adjacent lines lines as well.

 

 

 

 

[t-b-g]

32 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

 

Here's my offering based on that.

 

I'm sure the freight area could be improved, it's not really been something I've focussed on.

 

On Buckingham the reception road is the headshunt and the actual goods yard fills the "dead space" below the station throat.

 

 

 

Incidentally, Buckingham is one of the layouts featured in the RMWeb "virtual exhibition" this weekend, so there will hopefully be the chance to see some of this working.

[t-b-g]

A further snap to show how the Buckingham loco facilities fit into the corner. The turntable will take a      4-6-0 tender loco but only just.

 

I often say that when I am trying to design something or solve a problem, a look at Buckingham more often than not gives me a solution!

[Zomboid]

For the academic exercise, and because track is free in Anyrail, I have tried to get as much of Buckingham as I possible could into this 10x8 space.

It doesn't really fit that well (especially without using bespoke geometry, but even then it would be hard going), but you can get a surprising amount and I expect it would still be workable. I can see why the Buckingham signalbox is on a gantry. There's just nowhere to put one on the ground!

If the OP chooses to build this then... well, good luck - I'm sure it'll be a lot of fun once it's done.

[Pacific231G]

19 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

On Buckingham the reception road is the headshunt and the actual goods yard fills the "dead space" below the station throat.

 

 

 

Incidentally, Buckingham is one of the layouts featured in the RMWeb "virtual exhibition" this weekend, so there will hopefully be the chance to see some of this working.

I look forward to seeing it Tony.

This does lead to a question that I've been wondering about for some time.

The kickback goods yard with its headshunt parallel to the platform roads is a venerable design feature of model railways perhaps because baseboards tend to be rectangular whereas terminus throats generally narrow at the "country" end. It was used by John Charman for Charford, Peter Denny as we see here and in Cyril Freezer's later developments of Minories. But is it prototypical?  Apart from Holywell Town* - a special case because the line was on a steep gradient even within the platform- I don't actually know of any examples of a terminus with a kickback goods yard. Were there any?  I'm wondering because I'm looking seriously at a Minories inspired terminus and it seems the best way of fitting in goods facilities on a shelf layout without making the baseboards too wide but I don't want to build something that I know is wrong.

*

http://www.cherryclan.com/2016/01/holywell-town-the-prototype/

http://disused-stations.org.uk/h/holywell_town/index.shtml

 

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2020 by Pacific231G

[Titanius Anglesmith]

1 hour ago, Pacific231G said:

This does lead to a question that I've been wondering about for some time.

The kickback goods yard with its headshunt parallel to the platform roads is a venerable design feature of model railways perhaps because baseboards tend to be rectangular whereas terminus throats generally narrow at the "country" end. It was used by John Charman for Charford, Peter Denny as we see here and in Cyril Freezer's later developments of Minories. But is it prototypical?  Apart from Holywell Town* - a special case because the line was on a steep gradient even within the platform- I don't actually know of any examples of a terminus with a kickback goods yard. Were there any?  I'm wondering because I'm looking seriously at a Minories inspired terminus and it seems the best way of fitting in goods facilities on a shelf layout without making the baseboards too wide but I don't want to build something that I know is wrong.

 

Southend on the LT&SR, though not quite a terminus* as two of the six platform roads were on through lines.  The goods headshunt was parallel to the dead-end Platform 1.

 

* Originally it was a terminus.  When the line was extended to Shoeburyness the lines through platforms 2 and 3 were simply carried on with very little change to the rest of the station.  I think the kickback goods arrangement post-dates the extension to Shoeburyness.

 

edit: having checked the OS rather than relying on memory, now I’m not so sure. The sidings were mostly kickbacks, but what may be the headshunt is set away from the bay platform. 

Edited July 3, 2020 by Titanius Anglesmith

[t-b-g]

30 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

I look forward to seeing it Tony.

This does lead to a question that I've been wondering about for some time.

The kickback goods yard with its headshunt parallel to the platform roads is a venerable design feature of model railways perhaps because baseboards tend to be rectangular whereas terminus throats generally narrow at the "country" end. It was used by John Charman for Charford, Peter Denny as we see here and in Cyril Freezer's later developments of Minories. But is it prototypical?  Apart from Holywell Town* - a special case because the line was on a steep gradient even within the platform- I don't actually know of any examples of a terminus with a kickback goods yard. Were there any?  I'm wondering because I'm looking seriously at a Minories inspired terminus and it seems the best way of fitting in goods facilities on a shelf layout without making the baseboards too wide but I don't want to build something that I know is wrong.

*

http://www.cherryclan.com/2016/01/holywell-town-the-prototype/

http://disused-stations.org.uk/h/holywell_town/index.shtml

 

 

 

 

 

I am not sure that matters much if you are modelling a fictitious location. They would have put the goods yard where it fitted the landscape and gave the best access. Chesterfield Market Place has the passenger station and goods yards at 90 degrees. There were other terminus stations where the goods yard was in odd places that you wouldn't expect. Higham Ferrers is one and Coalport East another that had sidings on the terminus end side f the platform. 

[PatB]

2 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

I look forward to seeing it Tony.

This does lead to a question that I've been wondering about for some time.

The kickback goods yard with its headshunt parallel to the platform roads is a venerable design feature of model railways perhaps because baseboards tend to be rectangular whereas terminus throats generally narrow at the "country" end. It was used by John Charman for Charford, Peter Denny as we see here and in Cyril Freezer's later developments of Minories. But is it prototypical?  Apart from Holywell Town* - a special case because the line was on a steep gradient even within the platform- I don't actually know of any examples of a terminus with a kickback goods yard. Were there any?  I'm wondering because I'm looking seriously at a Minories inspired terminus and it seems the best way of fitting in goods facilities on a shelf layout without making the baseboards too wide but I don't want to build something that I know is wrong.

*

http://www.cherryclan.com/2016/01/holywell-town-the-prototype/

http://disused-stations.org.uk/h/holywell_town/index.shtml

 

 

 

 

Does the mill siding at Ashburton count? 

[Pacific231G]

2 hours ago, PatB said:

Does the mill siding at Ashburton count? 

Certainly not and it's very awkward to shunt.

In terms of play value  operational interest. I've found that,  in a small BLT with say three goods sidings, having one facing the other way from the other two makes shunting a lot more challenging but a private siding alway seems more credible.  Has anyone else noticed that Asnburton's track plan is, apart from the loco shed siding, the same as John Allen's "Timesaver" shunting puzzle. 

There was a sort of kickback goods depot at Paddington when the former warehouse area was being used as an aggregates depot (I assume for the redevelopment of the former GWR goods yard area) before they started work on Crossrail. The buffer end of the headshunt was though a little short of the platforms.

4 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

I am not sure that matters much if you are modelling a fictitious location. They would have put the goods yard where it fitted the landscape and gave the best access. Chesterfield Market Place has the passenger station and goods yards at 90 degrees. There were other terminus stations where the goods yard was in odd places that you wouldn't expect. Higham Ferrers is one and Coalport East another that had sidings on the terminus end side f the platform. 

So long as it's credible which is what I wasn't sure of. The main line into the old Ft. William station was also the headshunt for the "downside" goods yard but that was a rather special case.  

[DCB]

Kick back sidings can be fine as long as there is enough track beyond them to act as a head shunt, the trouble is there seldom is on the typical BLT. A lot of model BLTs have about 3ft /10 wagon clearance in the goods run round, many real ones had 40 wagons worth, that's about 12 feet and a couple of 18 wagon sidings.    It's not quite so bad if there are two kick back sidings so you can do the shunting puzzle thing to extract the wagon at the buffer stops, but when you have to drag the wagons out in two or more tranches and park them somewhere while you put the replacement wagons in things can get very complicated.  I suspect a lot of modellers take the wagons from the goods yard and bring fresh ones back, whereas the full size brought the new wagons before taking the old ones away.  I often end up with a loco sandwiched between two 12 wagon rafts while shunting an 8ft long BLT with barely a 4ft run round, the 20 odd foot run to the main shed making an admirable headshunt but the choice of loco is a bit critical and it all gets very silly when the Hattons 14XX finds itself on he branch goods.  Zomboids 02/07/ 15:58 plan would allow an 18 wagon goods to be run round and at least a 15 wagon goods to depart easily, 

[Will Crompton]

On 03/07/2020 at 11:39, Pacific231G said:

I look forward to seeing it Tony.

This does lead to a question that I've been wondering about for some time.

The kickback goods yard with its headshunt parallel to the platform roads is a venerable design feature of model railways perhaps because baseboards tend to be rectangular whereas terminus throats generally narrow at the "country" end. It was used by John Charman for Charford, Peter Denny as we see here and in Cyril Freezer's later developments of Minories. But is it prototypical?  Apart from Holywell Town* - a special case because the line was on a steep gradient even within the platform- I don't actually know of any examples of a terminus with a kickback goods yard. Were there any?  I'm wondering because I'm looking seriously at a Minories inspired terminus and it seems the best way of fitting in goods facilities on a shelf layout without making the baseboards too wide but I don't want to build something that I know is wrong.

*

http://www.cherryclan.com/2016/01/holywell-town-the-prototype/

http://disused-stations.org.uk/h/holywell_town/index.shtml

 

 

 

 

This is a question that I have often wondered about given the later versions of Minories and the frequency it is seen in model railway termini. I recently looked through the Disused Stations website looking for examples in a fairly unsystematic sampling of closed stations in the north and came across an example in Bacup.

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bacup/index.shtml

 

More generally there are a number of medium sized urban, semi-urban termini, particularly in Lancashire which are a feast of inspiration for modelling I thought (although as noted the only one I found with a kick back goods yard was Bacup). I think the following are all worth a gander: Royton, Bolton Great Moor Street and Middleton (the last needs a Google, as I can't find it on the Disused Stations website).

[Pacific231G]

30 minutes ago, Will Crompton said:

This is a question that I have often wondered about given the later versions of Minories and the frequency it is seen in model railway termini. I recently looked through the Disused Stations website looking for examples in a fairly unsystematic sampling of closed stations in the north and came across an example in Bacup.

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bacup/index.shtml

 

More generally there are a number of medium sized urban, semi-urban termini, particularly in Lancashire which are a feast of inspiration for modelling I thought (although as noted the only one I found with a kick back goods yard was Bacup). I think the following are all worth a gander: Royton, Bolton Great Moor Street and Middleton (the last needs a Google, as I can't find it on the Disused Stations website).

Thanks Will. That is useful if only to show that kickback goods yards did exist. Even if they were rare It doesn't reqiire many to make it fair game for our purposes.