role of railways for passengers between Uk and Irelend

[mikejames]

it seems to be a widely held view on this forum that people will, in future, fly between the UK and Ireland (north or south/eire)

and passenger rail connections are, at best, a luxury.

do people agree with this statement.

if so, what are the consequences for the lines to fishguard/holyhead/stranraer post brexit.

And if passenger connections are a 'waste of money' should the lines be closed!

 

The is meant to be a provocative post

 

mike james

 

 

 

[Edwin_m]

Most people probably fly already unless they need to travel with a car.  The rail-sea passengers are probably to/from Wales rather than England, where it's quicker and easier to get the ferry than to backtrack to airports further east.  I certainly found it useful when I had a meeting in Dublin, then one in Flint early the following day.  I don't see Brexit affecting that flow very much, and although it's a bit of a hassle for the ferry operator (they use a bus to take people off via the vehicle deck) they seem to regard it as worth doing.  

 

The ferry itself is sustained by trucks.  These may be reduced after Brexit, as depending on trading arrangements there could be less goods between the UK and Ireland, or goods using the UK as a landbridge might start going by direct ferries to France.  But I doubt that would be enough to kill off the ferries completely.  

[Zomboid]

I doubt the Stranraer train does much ferry business given that the port is now nowhere near (and the connecting bus would appear to run to/from Ayr). It would seem only a matter of time before the station is moved to somewhere in the town rather than its present location by the dock.

 

Holyhead has a vastly more frequent train service than ferry service, so you'd think most people using the station are not getting a boat to Dublin, but are traveling to/from the north western corner of Anglesey. And if you closed it, where would the trains terminate instead? Bangor? Then have no trains on Anglesey at all?

 

Fishguard is harder. I know there's a station in the town now, but does it have a worthwhile train service to actually create some demand?

[Nearholmer]

The Holyhead to Dublin area route is definitely well-used by people travelling by car (and a fair few motorcycles), and there is a steady if unimpressive number of “foot passengers” to/from the trains and stage-coaches, and also quite few road coaches on tours. I can’t imagine ferry operators wanting to give-up on that business.

 

How the numbers stack-up against air I don’t know, but one advantage air has is destinations further west: Knock, Limerick, Farranfore etc.

 

One thing that might be going on around all this is “briefing” by certain airline interests at a time when there is likely to be competition for public spending between port access and airports ....... both air and ferries are effectively enabled (I nearly said subsidised) by public spending, and both modes are going to be well under the cosh if social distancing is applied rigorously.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Nearholmer

[caradoc]

Interesting question. I mentioned in the HS2 thread a recent trip from Glasgow to Belfast, to expand on that: I am fortunate enough to have rail staff free travel in the UK and Northern Ireland, plus a discount on the ferry, but flew instead with a low-cost carrier. Even with the time taken to get from home to Glasgow Airport, and from Belfast Airport to Belfast city, the journey time was far quicker than by rail/ship/rail (which of course is now actually rail/bus/ship/rail as the ferries sail from Cairnryan, not Stranraer). This was a package trip with my son, who does not have staff travel, but even if going on my own I would still have opted for flying, partly because Glasgow Airport is closer to my home than Glasgow Central station. And last year my wife went on a hen weekend with family and friends to Belfast, again by air, because for them the journey time, fares and general lack of hassle were far superior to the land/sea option.

 

On the other hand, my daughter has considered a road trip to Ireland, in her own car, which would of course mean using the ferry, and that type of traffic plus freight should sustain the service, but for foot passengers, unless perhaps you happen to live within fairly easy reach of Cairnryan (and not that many people do !), air is always likely to be the first option. 

 

Finally, I've not been to Eire for many years, but back in the 80s myself and friends did a rail holiday and at the end, planned to travel from Cork to London via Rosslare/Fishguard. However there was a fishermans' dispute and they had blockaded Rosslare Harbour ! So instead we flew from Cork to Heathrow; Quite expensive, but the flight took an hour; By rail/sea/rail the journey would have taken most of the evening and all of the night. Nowadays, with low-cost airlines, that kind of journey time is again simply unsustainable.

 

 

[Bomag]

It all depends on why you are travelling. If I am going for about a fortnight or more I will take the car. For about a week I would take the train and ferry if going to Dublin (but I wish they had better public transport on the Dublin side). Only if I was going for a day or two would I be prepared to take the unpleasantness of flying and then for work. 

 

It all depends on peoples tolerances to individual modes of transport. When I had a week in Dublin last year there were two or three bus (transfer) loads of foot passengers on the lunch time high speed ferry to and from Holyhead - probably 25%-33% of travellers. When I went over to Larne in 2014 with the car (lunch time/ mid afternoon) about half a coach load of foot passengers arrived - obviously a hour on the A77 was not as appealing as a train along the North Wales coast. 

 

Its always amazed me that although the loadings are always seem to be higher on Irish see ferries it cost much more to take a car to NI/ROI than it is to take a car to Lewis/Harris. Both are subsides to some degree (either directly indirectly) and take over two hours but there seems to be no benefit by having the limited competition to Ireland.

[Edwin_m]

2 hours ago, Bomag said:

Its always amazed me that although the loadings are always seem to be higher on Irish see ferries it cost much more to take a car to NI/ROI than it is to take a car to Lewis/Harris. Both are subsides to some degree (either directly indirectly) and take over two hours but there seems to be no benefit by having the limited competition to Ireland.

The loadings probably explain the price.  The Irish ferry may have an indirect subsidy but it doesn't have any regulation of prices so if they can fill the ferry based on charging a lot for each vehicle then they will maximise their profits by doing so.  For the Scottish islands there's much less traffic in the first place, and if the subsidy is direct then it's probably tied to some regulation of prices.  Even if it wasn't, many passengers would be regulars who would probably change their travel habits if it got more expensive, so the reduction in demand due to the higher price might outweigh the extra money from each ticket.  

[Jeremy Cumberland]

Holyhead is the only decently rail-connected port on the Great Britain side, and this was still moderately well-used by rail passengers last time I used it, but the connections are often poor. Most passengers appear only to go to Dublin.

 

The station move at Rosslare (and closure of Rosslare - Waterford) some years ago wrecked the value of that route for rail travel within Ireland, but of course the bus terminal is right at the port, so rail on the Great Britian side and bus travel on the Irish side still works. However, I think I was the only rail passenger last time I used the service. The journey to Fishguard is painfully slow (and I was only travelling from Bristol).

 

I've used Birkenhead - Belfast by rail; there was a bus connection to the port at Birkenhead but nothing at all on the Belfast side, and the terminal is very poorly situated.

 

I have never used Stranraer/Cairnryan - Larne. I suspect it is used by rail travellers from Scotland since it still appears to be well connected, despite the bus, and of course the rail connection at Larne is excellent.

 

So, in answer to the question, it is already a luxury that few people use. All the rail connections on the Great Britain side are sure to be retained, but not primarily for ferry traffic, but they aren't primarily for ferry traffic now. I cannot imagine the rail connections at Larne, Dun Laoghaire or Rosslare being curtailed either, but, again, these aren't primarily for ferry passengers. Whether the ferry companies think it worth providing transport to ferry terminals for foot passengers might depend on what subsidies or grants they attract. Dublin Ferryport was well-served last time I went; Belfast wasn't served at all. I am not aware of a bus link at Rosslare to the railway station.

[chrisf]

Had fate not intervened, in the form of the virus, I would at the time of posting have been preparing to catch the bus from central Dublin to Dublin Port, there to catch the ferry to Holyhead as a foot passenger.  As some will know, I had planned a long weekend in Dublin and came to the view that the journey between Bedford and Dublin would be accomplished quite simply by bus from Bedford to Milton Keynes, rail from there to Holyhead and ferry across the Irish Sea.  Granted, it would have taken all day, but the scope for relaxing on a ferry is infinitely greater IMHO than on an aircraft.  To the flight time needs to be added the time taken to get from home to airport and airport to city centre, plus the time spent in boarding, waiting on a take-off slot, baggage retrieval and so on.  I never was a fan of flying and the assorted rigmarole but since a holiday in the Antipodes last year I have been even less keen.  Somehow I picked up a virus - not the same one, thank goodness - which rendered me all but non-functional for more than two months.  This does tend to colour my judgement.

 

Chris 

[duncan]

Edwin, The Scottish Islands ferries receive a subsidy from the Scottish Government (Road Tarrif equivalent ?) to reduce the cost of travel to the equivalent of road travel.  These ferries carry fewer passangers etc due to the rougher weather they encounter & many have open sterns to carry cargoes that can't be enclosed on a passanger ferry eg gas / oil.

 

If anyone is flying Ryan Air to Dublin, then I estimate that the RA stance is about a mile from the barriers, there are moving walkways though.  

[Edwin_m]

8 hours ago, duncan said:

If anyone is flying Ryan Air to Dublin, then I estimate that the RA stance is about a mile from the barriers, there are moving walkways though.  

Been there done that many times, including during the period they were about where they are now but in a giant Portakabin instead of a proper terminal.  And when I got there and found there was nowhere to eat in their excuse for a terminal, and had to walk most of the mile back as the travelators for departing passengers only run one way!

 

In about 2008 I was on a project with a series of 1100 meetings at Inchicore.  This was an 0400 alarm call for the bus to EMA, Ryanair to Dublin to be woken up by their horrible fanfare when they claimed to be on time, bus into town and a fry-up in a café on O'Connell that almost made it worthwhile.  Tram to one of the canalside stops, picked up by a colleague going to a meeting and then the same in reverse only walking to the tram and no fry-up.  Got me home about 1600. 

 

One of these was the day before the meeting in North Wales I mentioned above, which I did by catching the fast ferry about 1330 which got me to the Travelodge in Holyhead about 1700, then an earlyish start for 0900 in Flint (but not as early as travelling there from Nottingham!).  If I'd taken the train from Holyhead instead of staying over I'd have been home about 2200 I think, so six hours longer in each direction for the train plus ferry option.  These days I still fly, but go the day before from BHX and stay over in Dublin.  

[duncan]

should have enjoyed the fryup on the way home too  

[Edwin_m]

10 hours ago, duncan said:

should have enjoyed the fryup on the way home too  

I wanted the plane to be able to get off the ground.  

[frobisher]

On 30/06/2020 at 13:12, duncan said:

Edwin, The Scottish Islands ferries receive a subsidy from the Scottish Government (Road Tarrif equivalent ?) to reduce the cost of travel to the equivalent of road travel.  These ferries carry fewer passangers etc due to the rougher weather they encounter & many have open sterns to carry cargoes that can't be enclosed on a passanger ferry eg gas / oil.

 

There is a notable exception which is the Gills Bay - St Margaret's Hope route which has zero subsidy and takes the greater bulk of the road vehicles to and from Orkney because it's cheaper and quicker than the subsidised franchise.

[duncan]

agreed, I was on the cat in a moderately rough day & I found the movement very different to a normal ship, was not very pleasant, but the journey is short

also been on the big ship going from Scrabster to Stromness & that can be rough but rides normally as a conventional ship, don't do it as often as you will

[Bomag]

15 hours ago, duncan said:

agreed, I was on the cat in a moderately rough day & I found the movement very different to a normal ship, was not very pleasant, but the journey is short

also been on the big ship going from Scrabster to Stromness & that can be rough but rides normally as a conventional ship, don't do it as often as you will

 

I have never had too many issues with the Pentland ferry catamaran and have never needed a Quells as I normally do on a Cal Mac boat. A few times I have been on it where the tide through the firth was creating a hydraulic jump going round one of the island, the boat did a zig zag to cross the jump at right angles - presumably to avoid any rolling. It does create a bit of a bump and sets off all the car alarms.

 

Looks like it will be 2021 before next sailing forth.

[frobisher]

18 hours ago, duncan said:

agreed, I was on the cat in a moderately rough day & I found the movement very different to a normal ship, was not very pleasant, but the journey is short

also been on the big ship going from Scrabster to Stromness & that can be rough but rides normally as a conventional ship, don't do it as often as you will

 

The difference is the route, rather than the nature of the vessel (though catamarans don't have the tendency to roll in the same way that single hull ferries do) .  The short sea crossing gets the Pentland Firth at full blast for a couple of minutes, so if the Firth is being frisky then it can be a bit "interesting", where as the Northlink crossing is somewhat more sheltered along its normal route.

 

4 hours ago, Bomag said:

It does create a bit of a bump and sets off all the car alarms.

 

One of the main reasons to not lock/set your alarm on  your car on that route.  It's fairly traditional for at least one tourist BMW to be blaring with its alarm the whole crossing, and on quite a few occasions those self same cars have flattened their battery and can't start at the other end... 

 

 

[Bomag]

18 hours ago, frobisher said:

 

One of the main reasons to not lock/set your alarm on  your car on that route.  It's fairly traditional for at least one tourist BMW to be blaring with its alarm the whole crossing, and on quite a few occasions those self same cars have flattened their battery and can't start at the other end... 

 

 

Agreed, given how close they stack the cars nobody can get into anything left unlocked except on the last row!

[125_driver]

One of the main reasons the boats should be flourishing are environmental.  Flying is frowned upon more and more these days and in some cases the airlines have either folded (flybe) or reduced flights dramatically.

This will only intensify as folk attempt to make there journey as carbon neutral as possible.

 

It's a shame that the rail link to rosslare was removed as when I last did the ferry to fishguard in 2013 it was packed , and many people where continuing on the train into the UK. 

 

One of the other benefits of the ferry provided you are not rushed for time is being able to sit back with a pint of something nice , and gaze out at the irish sea for a few hours or so. A far better way to enter Ireland / the UK in my view...

[JDW]

On 29/06/2020 at 10:20, caradoc said:

Interesting question. I mentioned in the HS2 thread a recent trip from Glasgow to Belfast, to expand on that: I am fortunate enough to have rail staff free travel in the UK and Northern Ireland, plus a discount on the ferry, but flew instead with a low-cost carrier. Even with the time taken to get from home to Glasgow Airport, and from Belfast Airport to Belfast city, the journey time was far quicker than by rail/ship/rail (which of course is now actually rail/bus/ship/rail as the ferries sail from Cairnryan, not Stranraer). This was a package trip with my son, who does not have staff travel, but even if going on my own I would still have opted for flying, partly because Glasgow Airport is closer to my home than Glasgow Central station. And last year my wife went on a hen weekend with family and friends to Belfast, again by air, because for them the journey time, fares and general lack of hassle were far superior to the land/sea option.

 

 

 

I know it's not very relevant to your own situation, but in case it is helpful to others travelling between Glasgow and Belfast, the service operated by Hannon Coach is a better and less well-known option than that Citylink one, the price is similar but the coach goes right through, so no having to get off and carry your luggage through the terminals as a foot passenger. Still not as quick as flying of course but a good option for those without a car.

[caradoc]

20 hours ago, 125_driver said:

It's a shame that the rail link to rosslare was removed as when I last did the ferry to fishguard in 2013 it was packed , and many people where continuing on the train into the UK. 

 

Back in the 1980s again, I once travelled on the evening Dublin-Rosslare train to connect into the overnight Fishguard sailing. On arrival at Rosslare Harbour I was the only passenger off the train for the ship, which was obviously already loaded with cars and their passengers, as they all lined the railings watching me get off the train !

 

[125_driver]

3 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

Back in the 1980s again, I once travelled on the evening Dublin-Rosslare train to connect into the overnight Fishguard sailing. On arrival at Rosslare Harbour I was the only passenger off the train for the ship, which was obviously already loaded with cars and their passengers, as they all lined the railings watching me get off the train !

 

The day I did it in 2013 there where about 40 people on the platform waiting for the "boat train" off fishguard (in this case sadly a 150).  I think a fast service stopping only at Cardiff,  and Bristol (for onward connections) or even better onto paddington would help to improve the market, provided there are adequate connections on the irish side too, tonDublin, and preferably also onto Cork.