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Modelling a 30s BLT. Small town/large village, middle of nowhere up north. I'm wondering how petrol would have been brought in. Research so far tells me that the place is too small to justify a garage with new fangled pumps. Probably only 4-5 car owners in the whole place plus maybe a couple of lorry owners. I've read that petrol was commonly sold at hardware shops (&chemists!) in 2 gallon cans. So....

i) does the above sound about right? If so..

ii) how was said petrol delivered to the goods yard? Already in cans on wagon? 

iii) what regs about where in a stopping goods said wagon would be marshalled? 

 

All info welcome!

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It would have been siphoned out of tank wagons into cans and drums; siphoning was needed as Class A tanks did not have bottom discharge valves. At least two empty wagons, or wagons containing inert material, would be required between the tank (s) and the loco and brake vans. This was before Jerry-cans, and the tins were smaller and somewhat weaker. As petrol stations and garages often shared premises with blacksmith's shops or farriers, there must have been accidents...

I can think of one farrier's premises which still had a pump outside in the 1970s, likewise a pub. Both were in or near Pwll, west of Llanelli.

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The GWR General Appendix of 1936 makes mention of cans (these would be the standard two gallon ones), steel drums, and casks (which i take to be wooden) for less than tank-wagon sized consignments of petrol and other mineral oils. The instructions require that casks and barrels of petrol and oil be "loaded as for beer", which means loaded horizontally in open wagons. Some of the detail is about making sure that they didn't cause taint to other goods, by ensuring that sensitive things aren't loaded into wagons stained by oil leakage.

 

Steel drums were quite unusual pre-WW2, and the wooden casks seem to have been associated with the Scottish Shale Oil industry (in huge numbers!), so my money would be on two gallon cans, forwarded from the nearest location where tank wagons were unloaded if the local consumption was small. If consumption was large, then a tank wagon, syphoned into two gallon cans, but it might have come in steel drums, which can easily be pumped-out using a hand-pump that fits into the hole at the end, or put on a stand and run-off through a tap.

 

Reminds me of working part-time in a petrol station in the 1970s: there were still a few old guys living in isolated farms who would come in once a week to get petrol, one in particular who had a truly ancient van. He would get out, rub his chin thoughtfully, consider the whole matter for many seconds and then say, very slowly "I think I'll have a gallon boy.". How he eked-out the gallon I could never understand, but he did, always one gallon each week!

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3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The GWR General Appendix of 1936 makes mention of cans (these would be the standard two gallon ones), steel drums, and casks (which i take to be wooden) for less than tank-wagon sized consignments of petrol and other mineral oils. The instructions require that casks and barrels of petrol and oil be "loaded as for beer", which means loaded horizontally in open wagons. Some of the detail is about making sure that they didn't cause taint to other goods, by ensuring that sensitive things aren't loaded into wagons stained by oil leakage.

 

Steel drums were quite unusual pre-WW2, and the wooden casks seem to have been associated with the Scottish Shale Oil industry (in huge numbers!), so my money would be on two gallon cans, forwarded from the nearest location where tank wagons were unloaded if the local consumption was small. If consumption was large, then a tank wagon, syphoned into two gallon cans, but it might have come in steel drums, which can easily be pumped-out using a hand-pump that fits into the hole at the end, or put on a stand and run-off through a tap.

 

Reminds me of working part-time in a petrol station in the 1970s: there were still a few old guys living in isolated farms who would come in once a week to get petrol, one in particular who had a truly ancient van. He would get out, rub his chin thoughtfully, consider the whole matter for many seconds and then say, very slowly "I think I'll have a gallon boy.". How he eked-out the gallon I could never understand, but he did, always one gallon each week!

Probably running out of petrol was his excuse/reason

for not doing any work for the rest of the week. :)

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5 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Reminds me of working part-time in a petrol station in the 1970s: there were still a few old guys living in isolated farms who would come in once a week to get petrol, one in particular who had a truly ancient van. He would get out, rub his chin thoughtfully, consider the whole matter for many seconds and then say, very slowly "I think I'll have a gallon boy.". How he eked-out the gallon I could never understand, but he did, always one gallon each week!

 

A former colleague of mine back in the mid 1990s, used to cause a minor disturbance of the peace at the local garage by popping in every month on his moped and asking for "a pound's worth of unleaded"

 

The pre war 2 gallon can whilst quite a strong can, (unlike its WW2, 4 gallon cousin) but being purely a can with a screw top, it required some form of funnel or other device for dispensing if the contents were go where they were desired. . It also didn't have much room for expansion on warm days. taking the lid off in summer, I would imagine, could be quite a risky business.

 

 

Andy

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On 30/06/2020 at 16:53, Nearholmer said:

The GWR General Appendix of 1936 makes mention of cans (these would be the standard two gallon ones), steel drums, and casks (which i take to be wooden) for less than tank-wagon sized consignments of petrol and other mineral oils. The instructions require that casks and barrels of petrol and oil be "loaded as for beer", which means loaded horizontally in open wagons. Some of the detail is about making sure that they didn't cause taint to other goods, by ensuring that sensitive things aren't loaded into wagons stained by oil leakage.

 

Steel drums were quite unusual pre-WW2, and the wooden casks seem to have been associated with the Scottish Shale Oil industry (in huge numbers!), so my money would be on two gallon cans, forwarded from the nearest location where tank wagons were unloaded if the local consumption was small. If consumption was large, then a tank wagon, syphoned into two gallon cans, but it might have come in steel drums, which can easily be pumped-out using a hand-pump that fits into the hole at the end, or put on a stand and run-off through a tap.

 

Reminds me of working part-time in a petrol station in the 1970s: there were still a few old guys living in isolated farms who would come in once a week to get petrol, one in particular who had a truly ancient van. He would get out, rub his chin thoughtfully, consider the whole matter for many seconds and then say, very slowly "I think I'll have a gallon boy.". How he eked-out the gallon I could never understand, but he did, always one gallon each week!

re "Loaded as for beer"..  I've had the ill luck to work in the pub trade for a while and barrels (kegs now) are/were kept upright in transit, max stacking 2. When the boozers reopen look at the dray when it comes, ditto the old pictures of horse drawn drays round the walls. 

I've got a (offstage) small brewery on the layout. Just an excuse to have a bit of extra goods yard traffic. Looked at the ins n outs elsewhere on here & found that beer barrels often went in vent-vans or even old cattle wagons. Seemed a good idea as I don't then have to swap full>empty open wagons each cycle of working, if that makes sense.

 

Ps- Loved your "Have a gallon" man. Same in the pubs. "Ooooo I thinkk I'll have a.. no,just a minute,what's that new one?Nooo I'll have a half of [beer he's been drinking for 80yrs]. Oh, then complain about it. :o)

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16 minutes ago, GDR said:

Loaded as for beer"..  I've had the ill luck to work in the pub trade for a while and barrels (kegs now) are/were kept upright in transit, max stacking 2


The railways seem to have done it differently. Here is the relevant page from the GWR document - they clearly shared pictures with the experts serving Burton on Trent, the MR.

 

 

106064CD-1DAC-4BDA-AA69-2B7E9EEA7BA6.jpeg

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43 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:


The railways seem to have done it differently. Here is the relevant page from the GWR document - they clearly shared pictures with the experts serving Burton on Trent, the MR.

 

 

106064CD-1DAC-4BDA-AA69-2B7E9EEA7BA6.jpeg

Lordy so they did!! Thanks. God knows what those barrels must've held. I love to stand corrected!

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Going off course slightly, I was with friends in Spain a few years ago when we ran out of petrol. A nearby filling station sold us a disposable 'can' for about 3 litres . Simply a strong plastic bag with a screw cap and spout rather like a wine in a box bag. A result.

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I've definitely seen photos of drays with barrels horizontal. Or, rather, propped up on the raised edge of the wagon so that two barrels abreast form a shallow V. Maybe it was a regional or individual brewery thing. 

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23 hours ago, steve W said:

Going off course slightly, I was with friends in Spain a few years ago when we ran out of petrol. A nearby filling station sold us a disposable 'can' for about 3 litres . Simply a strong plastic bag with a screw cap and spout rather like a wine in a box bag. A result.

A Fistful Of Travellers Cheques ??? Had a bit of similar in Germany when young. 3 of us pushing car up a hill to some bloke's place where he poured us petrol out of a (yep!) Jerrycan. Yes, why didn't we walk it up there and walk back with the can. Maybe his revenge for Hamburg. Dunno.

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10 hours ago, PatB said:

I've definitely seen photos of drays with barrels horizontal. Or, rather, propped up on the raised edge of the wagon so that two barrels abreast form a shallow V. Maybe it was a regional or individual brewery thing. 

Possibly to do with size of barrel. I can(could!!) lift a 9 gallon & place on top of another, but the things that Nearholmer pictured could only be rolled (unless it's pics of empties!). Would hate to be a drayman back then. 

Er..Hogsheads? Firkins? Tuns? Should know all this!

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2 hours ago, GDR said:

Possibly to do with size of barrel. I can(could!!) lift a 9 gallon & place on top of another, but the things that Nearholmer pictured could only be rolled (unless it's pics of empties!). Would hate to be a drayman back then. 

Er..Hogsheads? Firkins? Tuns? Should know all this!

Probably Hogsheads or Pipes, depending on the contents.  

 

About 54 gallons, or 540lbs plus the weight of the cask (another half hundredweight or more).

 

Definitely rolled, and then spun & twisted, either to get it to stand upright, or to flip it onto a stillage as required.

 

A one hand job(in the right hands)

 

Empties, dead easy!!

 

 

 

Poper Job!!!

 

Regards

 

Ian

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Great stuff all! Wonder if there are brewery/garage fanatics' sites that get side-tracked into train talk? A learning curve here & no mistake, with bonus that I learn loads about railways too! :D

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On 30/06/2020 at 16:07, GDR said:

Modelling a 30s BLT. Small town/large village, middle of nowhere up north. I'm wondering how petrol would have been brought in. Research so far tells me that the place is too small to justify a garage with new fangled pumps. Probably only 4-5 car owners in the whole place plus maybe a couple of lorry owners. I've read that petrol was commonly sold at hardware shops (&chemists!) in 2 gallon cans. So....

i) does the above sound about right? If so..

ii) how was said petrol delivered to the goods yard? Already in cans on wagon? 

iii) what regs about where in a stopping goods said wagon would be marshalled? 

 

All info welcome!

 

By the 1930s a small town/large village in the middle of nowhere up north would be a focal point for the surrounding "nowhere".  So it would probably be the local source of petrol, possibly supplied by a business that started as a local blacksmith but expanded into motor repairs, probably with a petrol pump or two.  However I would expect that to be supplied by a road tanker (small in those days) from a distributor in a larger location.  However you could host a local distributor in your  BLT catchment area to justify a tank wagon parked on a siding and road tanker.  I remember the smaller road tankers even in the '50s had racks along either side to carry petrol and oil cans.

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Remember the filling attendant,  however doing filling, was probably stood there with a lit fag in his mouth.... 

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1 hour ago, Baldyoldgit said:

These barrels are standing up, I don't know if they are full or not.

Tony,002_2.JPG.e10291d2f18f3055f89605c8b81c86d0.JPG

The wagon is labelled for Ind Coope Ales, so more likely to be beer than petrol.

 

Regards

 

Ian

 

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