Deltic fuel consumption

[Stevebr]

The production Deltics had a fuel capacity of 900 gallons. A trip from Kings Cross to Edinburgh should use between 400 & 500 gallons ruling out a round trip without refueling.  In theory round trips to/from Newcastle or York were possible. Did this happen in reality or was refueling a matter of course.   Also the water held 640 gallons. Post eth stock would the water tanks be kept full in readiness for the sleeper services?

[DY444]

1 hour ago, Stevebr said:

The production Deltics had a fuel capacity of 900 gallons. A trip from Kings Cross to Edinburgh should use between 400 & 500 gallons ruling out a round trip without refueling.  In theory round trips to/from Newcastle or York were possible. Did this happen in reality or was refueling a matter of course.   Also the water held 640 gallons. Post eth stock would the water tanks be kept full in readiness for the sleeper services?

 

A very quick skip through some deltic diagrams from the mid 70s suggests that the only round trips without refuelling were KX to Leeds.  Most of the diagrams show incoming locomotives being refuelled at KX irrespective of the point of origin and the only one I spotted that didn't was a round trip Leeds - KX.  All KX - Newcastle/Edinburgh show fuelling before returning south.

 

As all the sleeper locomotives were fuelled before working the train then my guess is that the boiler tanks would be replenished at the same time if required.

Edited July 1, 2020 by DY444

[Swindon 123]

Towards the end of their working lives, which is when I worked on them, although they had a lot of diagrammed work on ETH stock during the day, all of the overnight trains on the ECML were steam heated, so as Deltics would still be fueled and watered just in case they ended up being diagrammed on one of the overnight services. 

 

Paul J. 

[Ken.W]

At Newcastle locos coming off the train there would go straight to Gateshead depot, or. on terminating trains would usually take the stock to Heaton and then proceed light back to Gateshead.

 

Locos arriving onto Gateshead would do so direct to the 'Daily Shed' (fuel point). There they would all, as a matter of course, be fueled and, if boiler fitted, also watered.

The daily shed staff had no knowledge of what the loco's next working would be.

 

[kevinlms]

13 hours ago, Ken.W said:

At Newcastle locos coming off the train there would go straight to Gateshead depot, or. on terminating trains would usually take the stock to Heaton and then proceed light back to Gateshead.

 

Locos arriving onto Gateshead would do so direct to the 'Daily Shed' (fuel point). There they would all, as a matter of course, be fueled and, if boiler fitted, also watered.

The daily shed staff had no knowledge of what the loco's next working would be.

 

That makes 100% sense to fill everything up, whenever you have the opportunity. As unlike road vehicles, you can't just stop anywhere on a long run and top up sufficiently to get to your destination!

 

With a train, it's a major inconvenience to run out of fuel, which for obvious reasons requires rescue locomotives and lots of 'please explain' paperwork.

Edited July 2, 2020 by kevinlms

[45125]

1 hour ago, kevinlms said:

That makes 100% sense to fill everything up, whenever you have the opportunity. As unlike road vehicles, you can't just stop anywhere on a long run and top up sufficiently to get to your destination!

 

With a train, it's a major inconvenience to run out of fuel, which for obvious reasons requires rescue locomotives and lots of 'please explain' paperwork.

Most depots in BR days filled fuel tanks and boiler water up even if they had been a short distance as the fellers didn't always know what the next working is. It was only recently that the splash and and dash type fuelling started, with the consequences of running out of fuel. The 47/8s often suffered from the lack of fuel for the job as the fueler didn't bother looking at the gauge inside and went on the external gauge on the additional tank.

 

[kevinlms]

5 minutes ago, 45125 said:

Most depots in BR days filled fuel tanks and boiler water up even if they had been a short distance as the fellers didn't always know what the next working is. It was only recently that the splash and and dash type fuelling started, with the consequences of running out of fuel. The 47/8s often suffered from the lack of fuel for the job as the fueler didn't bother looking at the gauge inside and went on the external gauge on the additional tank.

 

IIRC the 47/8s were all fitted with additional tanks and not a larger tank, so always a potential risk of not both being full.

Besides long range tanks, mean that you never run out!

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

3 hours ago, kevinlms said:

IIRC the 47/8s were all fitted with additional tanks and not a larger tank, so always a potential risk of not both being full.

Besides long range tanks, mean that you never run out!

Oh, I got one VERY close to the limit! If the fuel tank gauge between the bogies was showing anything less than full then you were running low, and if that tank was showing 1/4 full you might get another 100 miles max, depending on what was hanging off the hook.

 

[Titan]

Yes, the OP quotes the as built fuel/water capacity of the Deltics, which required the use of water scoops to replenish boiler water supply, or using water columns on platforms to fill via the flap next to the engine intake...

 

With the end of steam this was not viable, so the scoops were removed, and the main fuel tanks reduced to 800 and something gallons to create space for a larger water tank, which I think was not far off 800 gallons also. This did make the Night Aberdonian - load 16 and steam heated, a bit marginal for fuel!

[keefer]

IIRC KX-Edinburgh Deltics would go light-engine to Haymarket. Whether the same loco took the train back south would depend on the working diagrams and if there was time enough to turn the loco round. If not, then another loco would take it.

Once the HSTs were in service Deltics worked to Aberdeen regularly, although the usual practice for KX-Abdn trains was to swap Deltics at Edinburgh. The fresh Deltic would then work Edin-Abdn and return, while the other would go off to Haymarket.

[TravisM]

When I worked on the London Underground in the early 80’s, we had a ex KX driver who told us that the Class 55’s had a “eye watering” fuel consumption.  If they did a KX - Leeds return, by the time it arrived at Kings Cross, it was basically on fumes.

[Ken.W]

On 02/07/2020 at 21:31, keefer said:

IOnce the HSTs were in service Deltics worked to Aberdeen regularly, although the usual practice for KX-Abdn trains was to swap Deltics at Edinburgh. The fresh Deltic would then work Edin-Abdn and return, while the other would go off to Haymarket.

 

The HSTs on the other hand, would comfortably do 1,000+ miles a day without refueling.

 

One turn in particular that I remember, from the year before the 91s came in;

We'd take over the first train of the morning off Edinburgh at Newcastle, working through to arrive in Kings X  shortly before 11.00.

After our break, we were booked for the same set, which had remained in the platform for this time, back to Newcastle on the 12.00.

Yes, that's right, 12.00... the Inverness

 

So the day's booked working for the set was Edinburgh - Kings X - Inverness, without refueling.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Ken.W

[Ken.W]

14 hours ago, jools1959 said:

When I worked on the London Underground in the early 80’s, we had a ex KX driver who told us that the Class 55’s had a “eye watering” fuel consumption.  If they did a KX - Leeds return, by the time it arrived at Kings Cross, it was basically on fumes.

 

Sounds a bit of an exaggeration tbh

 

At that rate, from Kings X, they wouldn't have made it to Edinburgh!

[The Johnster]

On 02/07/2020 at 21:05, Titan said:

as built fuel/water capacity of the Deltics, which required the use of water scoops to replenish boiler water supply, or using water columns on platforms to fill via the flap next to the engine intake...

My ejumuckayshun has been embiggened; I never knew that Deltics had scoops.  I knew a batch of 40s were so equipped for the longer non-stop WCML trains, and had one on the 03.15 Cardiff Long Dyke-Carlisle, 7M49, in the early 70s.  This was out of diagram in the sense that normal working was to take a 47 off Canton with me acting secondman, but there was no loco for this job this particular night and we were taken to Long Dyke in the workbus, to find a loco shut down already coupled to the train.  When I'd finished prep and exam, I climbed up to the cab to give the driver the load, and mentioned that the loco was a 40, not a 37, and proved it by the presence of the scoop wheel and water gauge on the cab real bulkhead.  I knew he didn't sign traction knowledge for 40s, nobody at Canton did, but you had to be careful in those sensitive days about interfering in loco dept. business,  He just shrugged and made some sort of 'don't worry' comment, and I left him to it; we arrived at Hereford without incident...

[APOLLO]

 

 

Brit15

Edited July 4, 2020 by APOLLO

[The Stationmaster]

All the Type 4 mainline diesels had a fuel capacity of 800 gallons or a bit more than that.    The rule of thumb when diagramming was to work on the basis of an average of 1 gallon per mile and only regard 90% of the tank capacity as usable - the averah ge was based on the figires produced. by Derby and doesn't seem to have been varied for diagramming purposes between single engined and twin engined locos.  But over the years it became the practice to no longer fully diagram fuelling based on planned mileage planned run and simply diagram it on a daily basis because in reality fuel and inspection decisions were made by Traction Controllers and at many locations locos were inevitably fuelled when they went on depot whether or not they needed to be fuelled.

 

I suspect that the Deltics were probably heavier on fuel because they were given greater tank capacity (900 gallons) but I don't know what ER etc diagramming practice was fuelling.  The only locos booked specifically on diagrams for fuelling based on exact calculated fuel consumption were the Class 60s where Derby issued specific details for each individual diagram based on the route being run and the booked load.  The calculations produced for this purpose by the Train Performance team at Derby were very accurate with a margin of error of c, 5-10  miles on diagrams running some quite long distances.  For example a Class 60 working an Immingham 'Langley oil train and return empties had to run light to Old Oak & back to be refuelled before n making its return working.

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

15 hours ago, Ken.W said:

 

The HSTs on the other hand, would comfortably do 1,000+ miles a day without refueling.

 

One turn in particular that I remember, from the year before the 91s came in;

We'd take over the first train of the morning off Edinburgh at Newcastle, working through to arrive in Kings X  shortly before 11.00.

After our break, we were booked for the same set, which had remained in the platform for this time, back to Newcastle on the 12.00.

Yes, that's right, 12.00... the Inverness

 

So the day's booked working for the set was Edinburgh - Kings X - Inverness, without refueling.

for many years there was an Aberdeen out and back HST diagram, so that's over 1050 miles. In the 1980's and probably right up until the end of the decade a set worked 0800 Kgx-Abd/1600 Abd-Kgx and when the services were reworked post electrification with the minimal number of HSTs remaining one set did 0755 Abd-Kgx/1600 Kgx-Abd every weekday, this lasted well into GNER era if not later.

 

But... even better than that; for many years post electrification a set worked 0710 Lds-Abd, 1455 Abd-Kgx, 2310/2325/2330 Kgx-Lds taking it to over 1080 miles on a tank although if time allowed they fuelled it at Aberdeen as an insurance in case of power car breakdown later in the day. This diagram continued until the IEP take-over and was supplemented by a similar diagram which worked Leeds-London, 1000 Kgx-Abd, 1815ish Abd-Lds.

Edited July 4, 2020 by fiftyfour fiftyfour

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

3 minutes ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

 

 

Edited July 4, 2020 by fiftyfour fiftyfour

[Titan]

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

 

 

Brit15

 

I do wonder if the Deltic really needed water or whether the crew did it just to spray the steam enthusiasts - I bet they did not expect a diesel to be picking up water!

[TravisM]

4 hours ago, Ken.W said:

 

Sounds a bit of an exaggeration tbh

 

At that rate, from Kings X, they wouldn't have made it to Edinburgh!

I didn’t say he was correct just what he said.  He was very knowledgeable and had no reason to doubt him.

[Ken.W]

Hi Jools

I did appreciate you were just quoting what you'd been told.

Just that I was never aware (as secondman) of them being said to be borderline on fuel for Kings X - Edinburgh, which is longer than a return Leeds and often on overnights with much heavier loads

Edited July 4, 2020 by Ken.W

[Ken.W]

2 hours ago, Titan said:

 

I do wonder if the Deltic really needed water or whether the crew did it just to spray the steam enthusiasts - I bet they did not expect a diesel to be picking up water!

 

As 1A16's I think probably the 'Scotsman' so limited stop (Newcastle only?) little chance to top up at stations so expect it would be in need of drink

[stovepipe]

I can remember some reports of Deltics getting short of fuel during the Penmanshiel tunnel collapse, which involved diversion via Carlisle and the WCML to Edinburgh.

[The Johnster]

I get the impression that the purpose of the Deltics was to replace the A4s in being able to haul 12 coaches or more at consistent speeds in the high 90s (or more if possible) over considerable distances, and that fuel consumption was not a major factor in the equation so long as the loco made it from KX to Edinburgh or vice versa.  These trains were high fare earners and generated good on board catering income as well, so it was cost effective to burn fuel like there was no tomorrow in order to time the trains and especially to make up lost time.  There was little choice; the Deltics were the only diesel locos capable of this sort of performance.

[Stevebr]

I’m not sure why the Deltic fuel capacity was reduced to 800 (or 830) gallons after fitting with eth and or dual braking. Was this to minimize the extra weight. Given the tanks were in the belly it couldn’t have been for space?