Identifying locomotives

[Denbridge]

Hi. 

I'm totally new to DCC so excuse my ignorance.

A good friend has a large complex HO German layout with hidden sidings. He has asked me to help converting it to DCC (I wired the layout originally) Now, here's my question. Is there a gizmo available to provide information on which loco, by address, is on a particular train in out of sight storage sidings? 

Without such a facility I don't see how DCC would be viable on this particular layout. He doesnt want automation.

[Nigelcliffe]

If the decoders support RailCom (typically European brands), and if you buy a RailCom capable DCC system, then that's a fairly simple solution.  Lenz make a fairly cheap simple RailCom display, and that could be show the address of a locomotive in a storage siding.

 

Or, there is the "low tech" solution of fridge magnets.  Put details of train on a magnet, and place on a diagram of the storage areas.  

 

 

 

[Denbridge]

5 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

If the decoders support RailCom (typically European brands), and if you buy a RailCom capable DCC system, then that's a fairly simple solution.  Lenz make a fairly cheap simple RailCom display, and that could be show the address of a locomotive in a storage siding.

 

Or, there is the "low tech" solution of fridge magnets.  Put details of train on a magnet, and place on a diagram of the storage areas.  

 

 

 

Thanks. That sounds worthy of further investigation, though he has bought prodigy gear already.

We did look at the magnet idea, but felt that keeping it up to date on what is a huge and complicated layout with lots of engine changes etc, would become a chore, or worse get forgotten. 

That's a thing in Analogues favour. If the sequence shows a train departing from say, up yard 11, you simply set the road, flick a switch and drive it out, not needing to know which loco is on the train.

[WIMorrison]

I have done exactly what you want to do for a friend using Railcom and iTrain. He is now able to identify every train and loco in his hidden yard and has now decided to expand the capability from the original requirement of identifying trains and locos in the storage yard to providing full automation of his layout.

[Denbridge]

16 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

I have done exactly what you want to do for a friend using Railcom and iTrain. He is now able to identify every train and loco in his hidden yard and has now decided to expand the capability from the original requirement of identifying trains and locos in the storage yard to providing full automation of his layout.

Cheers. I'll definitely be looking at this

[ITG]

I’m planning on using a lorry reversing camera and screen. The camera is small enough to be mounted inside the hidden storage yard. Total cost new from eBay around £18. All I need to add is a power source, which I had already.

only question to be answered on installation is what angle view I can get on it. Although my storage yard is not huge, I’m hoping I can view both loco and train.

[Pete the Elaner]

1 hour ago, Denbridge said:

Thanks. That sounds worthy of further investigation, though he has bought prodigy gear already.

We did look at the magnet idea, but felt that keeping it up to date on what is a huge and complicated layout with lots of engine changes etc, would become a chore, or worse get forgotten. 

That's a thing in Analogues favour. If the sequence shows a train departing from say, up yard 11, you simply set the road, flick a switch and drive it out, not needing to know which loco is on the train.

This is especially true if you are running a sequence at an exhibition.

If a loco fails for any reason, you can substitute a spare without having to record the change on paper or mentally.

 

The reverse is true if you have a track failure in the fiddle yard, although this is far less likely than a train fault.

[Denbridge]

50 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

This is especially true if you are running a sequence at an exhibition.

If a loco fails for any reason, you can substitute a spare without having to record the change on paper or mentally.

 

The reverse is true if you have a track failure in the fiddle yard, although this is far less likely than a train fault.

The problem, if you can call it that, is that some of the storage is either completely hidden, aside from maintenance access or is in a completely different room. Never a problem with DC and infra red detection. 

Thanks for the tips guys, I'll definitely be looking at railcom and I trains.

[Denbridge]

1 hour ago, ITG said:

I’m planning on using a lorry reversing camera and screen. The camera is small enough to be mounted inside the hidden storage yard. Total cost new from eBay around £18. All I need to add is a power source, which I had already.

only question to be answered on installation is what angle view I can get on it. Although my storage yard is not huge, I’m hoping I can view both loco and train.

I've tried cameras in its current DC format. The trouble is, to get adequate coverage needs around 20 of the things. The layout with its storage is huge.

[Nigelcliffe]

2 hours ago, Denbridge said:

Thanks. That sounds worthy of further investigation, though he has bought prodigy gear already.

 

 

Prodigy is nearly useless(*) for RailCom, and useless(**) for automated computer solutions (such as iTrain).  

 

(* may be able to make RailCom work with a third-party Railcom generator, but don't know if this is reliable with the Prodigy.  DCC4PC make a RailCom generator which goes downstream of the command station.  If that works, then Lenz display units would work, and you should be able to switch one display unit to look at several tracks with a rotary switch, thus saving the expense of 20 display units to cover 20 individual tracks.  ). 

 

(** only computer software which works with the Prodigy is JMRI, and even there the support isn't very good, and it can't do loco identification, so won't really help you.  MRC (the makers of the Prodigy which Gaugemaster badge) aren't interested in allowing third-party software to control their DCC system, and offer negligible to zero support to developers.  ).

 

Suggest selling the Prodigy, and go back to looking at the requirements, and buy a DCC system which will help do what is wanted!    Sorry to be harsh, but its a "don't start from here" when the requirements are described. 

 

 

- Nigel

 

[WIMorrison]

Nigel,

 

My experience of the DCC4PC product is that it isn't reliable and I found it to be somewhat flaky when I tried to implement it for the scenario I describe above. It did work (about 80% of the time) but the owner of the layout needed 100% reliability and the DCC4PC unit could not proved that - we tried many variations of the software to try and iron out the issues, in the end we replaced the command station with a Railcom compatible unit and the owner is very happy with the solution.

 

Iain

[Nigelcliffe]

I agree with you Iain for the computer software approach.  

But, I think it may work for the simple Lenz display unit, far fewer demands from that option.  And it may be the only RailCom option if staying with the Prodigy system!

 

- Nigel

 

[kev]

May be a cheap option would be a pencil and note book works for me (will go lay down in a dark room)

[Denbridge]

5 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

Prodigy is nearly useless(*) for RailCom, and useless(**) for automated computer solutions (such as iTrain).  

 

(* may be able to make RailCom work with a third-party Railcom generator, but don't know if this is reliable with the Prodigy.  DCC4PC make a RailCom generator which goes downstream of the command station.  If that works, then Lenz display units would work, and you should be able to switch one display unit to look at several tracks with a rotary switch, thus saving the expense of 20 display units to cover 20 individual tracks.  ). 

 

(** only computer software which works with the Prodigy is JMRI, and even there the support isn't very good, and it can't do loco identification, so won't really help you.  MRC (the makers of the Prodigy which Gaugemaster badge) aren't interested in allowing third-party software to control their DCC system, and offer negligible to zero support to developers.  ).

 

Suggest selling the Prodigy, and go back to looking at the requirements, and buy a DCC system which will help do what is wanted!    Sorry to be harsh, but its a "don't start from here" when the requirements are described. 

 

 

- Nigel

 

I think he will indeed look at selling the prodigy equipment. It's still boxed and unused.

I've not had much opportunity to read up on Railcom and itrains so far but they certainly look to do what he wants, though he does not want ANY form of automation, preferring to drive his trains.

[Denbridge]

3 hours ago, kev said:

May be a cheap option would be a pencil and note book works for me (will go lay down in a dark room)

The pen and paper solution would not be practicable on this layout. As with magnetic train markers, keeping it up to date would be a nightmare and make operating sessions a chore rather than a pleasure. As I've said,  this is a very extensive layout.

Personally I don't know why he wants to convert to DCC when the existing layout is ultra reliable. With well over a 100 locos on the layout at any one time, the costs alone would put me off.

[Nigelcliffe]

17 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

Personally I don't know why he wants to convert to DCC when the existing layout is ultra reliable. With well over a 100 locos on the layout at any one time, the costs alone would put me off.

 

Assume £20/loco for decoders, though may be a bit less in bulk, for something RailCom capable.   Plus fitting costs if any are older designs which pre-date sockets being fitted as standard.  

 

With RailCom as a solution, you need to research (and perhaps test) what is available to do what is wanted.  I suspect a computer with iTrain, and a suitable number of railcom detector units and occupancy detectors, may come out less than 20 separate Lenz display units (one per fiddle yard road), but either is going to run to several hundred pounds.  

 

 

 

- Nigel

[WIMorrison]

1 hour ago, Denbridge said:

I think he will indeed look at selling the prodigy equipment. It's still boxed and unused.

I've not had much opportunity to read up on Railcom and itrains so far but they certainly look to do what he wants, though he does not want ANY form of automation, preferring to drive his trains.

 

He doesn't have to do the automation bit, just add feedback decoders to read the loco values. He could also use the screen as a mimic diagram which will switch turnouts for him (if the turnout motors are DCC) and also use the program to set routes for him that he drives manually. If this is all he wants then the Lite option at €119 will meet his needs, plus adding in the feedback decoders at €99 for 16 feedbacks the bill does add up, but as Nigel hints at not as much as several Lenz display options - which would still need a pile of work to install.

 

If he wants to chat directly put him in touch with me, happy to help out and give him the experience from having actually done what he wants to do.

[Sol]

As I run to timetables & train orders, I use a spreadsheet to have specific trains in specific storage tracks & so the paperwork also specifies what locos go onto which train & track.

[Denbridge]

10 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

 

He doesn't have to do the automation bit, just add feedback decoders to read the loco values. He could also use the screen as a mimic diagram which will switch turnouts for him (if the turnout motors are DCC) and also use the program to set routes for him that he drives manually. If this is all he wants then the Lite option at €119 will meet his needs, plus adding in the feedback decoders at €99 for 16 feedbacks the bill does add up, but as Nigel hints at not as much as several Lenz display options - which would still need a pile of work to install.

 

If he wants to chat directly put him in touch with me, happy to help out and give him the experience from having actually done what he wants to do.

Thanks again. I've agreed that since the turnout wiring is pretty much all route setting panels with a degree of electrical interlocking, this will all remain untouched. Initially, at least, the track wiring will be left as is with DCC connected to it. I've a nagging feeling that once he realises the sheer cost of switching over he'll decide to go back to analogue!!

[Denbridge]

8 hours ago, Sol said:

As I run to timetables & train orders, I use a spreadsheet to have specific trains in specific storage tracks & so the paperwork also specifies what locos go onto which train & track.

That's exactly how another friend runs his layout. However, in this case from a train leaving its berth at the start of a sequence, it will be in sometimes 4 or more storage locations, will have been at 2 large stations and a terminus with probably 3 loco changes. It will certainly not have the same loco it departed with by the time it is 'home' at the end of the sequence.  Multiply this by several dozen similar scenarios in a sequence that takes several days to work through, spread over an extended period and you can see why manual recording would be a nightmare. Additionally, sequences involve a minimum of 8 operators.

[WIMorrison]

Ahh, all vitally important information that questions the viability of the solution I proposed because it would involved changing the train makeup with the program when the loco is swapped to ensure that the train is correctly identified at each of the intervening storage yards and on final return.

 

All possible and relatively easy as it will simply mean swapping the loco in the train, but more than I envisaged and probably more than he wants to do

[Nigelcliffe]

4 hours ago, Denbridge said:

Thanks again. I've agreed that since the turnout wiring is pretty much all route setting panels with a degree of electrical interlocking, this will all remain untouched. Initially, at least, the track wiring will be left as is with DCC connected to it. I've a nagging feeling that once he realises the sheer cost of switching over he'll decide to go back to analogue!!

 

Depending how the turnouts are operated and the current panel works, the basic Lenz RailCom display might be back in the frame as a cost-effective solution. 

 

If its simple to add a relay into the turnout selection, then the turnout selection for a storage road could also connect the Lenz display to that storage road alone (via relay switching).   Thus one display serves many storage roads.  At about £50 (give or take, its a while since I looked), that may be cost-effective to have say four Lenz displays covering different parts of the storage roads. 

 

But, the cost thing needs addressing.   At 100 locos, I can't see change out of £2500 for decoders and system, and it may be more with the RailCom display side (Lenz unit, or via iTrain).  If he wants sound in those locos, then its a lot more.  

 

 

 

[Denbridge]

Thanks once again for the most helpful responses to this entry.  I've still not had much time to look into all this properly, but hope to start reading up next week. I'm in little doubt I will be full of questions! Thanks again.