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Artificer1

2 aspect Ground Signal - colour of lights

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Please see attached circled ‘2 aspect ground signal’ . What are the colours of the lights If they where showing and does this signal work in conjunction with the L/H feather ? 
thank you 

F877A24B-1DC6-4F9A-BCE2-E1E72D554B5F.jpeg

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, Artificer1 said:

Please see attached circled ‘2 aspect ground signal’ . What are the colours of the lights If they where showing and does this signal work in conjunction with the L/H feather ? 
thank you 

F877A24B-1DC6-4F9A-BCE2-E1E72D554B5F.jpeg

When "off" two white lights will be displayed, not with the left-hand "feather", but for the right-hand crossover - I should add, with a "Red" (as currently shown) in the main aspect.

Edited by iands
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There are some old installations where you get the sub (2 white lights) with a feather or a standard indicator. This is not compliant to modern standards but you can find it out there.

Will

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The "2 aspect ground signal" is a call on signal, this is to call a locomotive or unit on to a section of track already ocupied by a item of rolling stock or locomotive. This is currently blank and when the route is set and conditions are met it will illuminate in two white lights as mentioned above. It does not illuminate red as per a shunt signal when not in use. You can see a shunt signal in the same pic on the far right hand side slightly elevated on a post.

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1 hour ago, e30ftw said:

.... on to a section of track already occupied by a item of rolling stock or locomotive ....... 

Not necessarily on to a section of track already occupied (although it could be). I think the photo provided is of Thorpe Le Soken (looking towards Colchester). I think the route to the right (using the sub/calling on signal) is to the "engineers siding/RRAP".

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Kirkcaldy has a similar setup at the end of the Down platform (i.e. main aspect signal with GPL below).

When a terminating Down train needs to reverse, main aspect stays red but the GPL shows 2 whites allowing the train to move forward into the down loop.

There are then the conventional red/white ground GPLs which show 2 whites to allow the train to come out of the loop and cross over to the Up platform. (Although I think these may now show 2 reds when 'on')

It also depends on where the GPL 'reads' to - if there were more than one route covered by the GPL, then it would be accompanied by a stencil/theatre indication of the route set.

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Hi,

 

the signal that’s circled in red will show two white lights, when illuminated it authorises you to pass the main red signal at danger for routing through the right hand crossovers into the siding. With this type of signal you should always be prepared for another train occupying the track ahead 

 

i will also add this is not a calling on signal indication which has a different meaning and would be location dependent.

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Just to add that the movements signalled by the indicator are for empty stock shunt moves only whereas the main aaspect and feather are signals for normal operation.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, andyman7 said:

Just to add that the movements signalled by the indicator are for empty stock shunt moves only whereas the main aaspect and feather are signals for normal operation.

 

In the case illustrated and many other cases.  However sub signals are used in locations where passenger trains are permitted to enter an occupied platform.  Also some routes have signals equipped with POSA signal heads which look like sub signals but operationally are different and the two white lights flash rather than showing a steady aspect.  Passenger trains can proceed past these too.

Edited by DY444
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The general meaning of a subsidiary aspect (red plus two white lights) is authority to move forward at caution prepared to stop short of any obstruction.  As well as other trains this might include such things as "proper" ground shunting signals showing a stop aspect (two reds horizontally, formerly a red and a white horizontally).  By contrast a single yellow confirms that the line is clear to the next main stop signal or buffer stop, and any shunting signals along the route will be clear unless replaced in an emergency.  

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I have often heard ground shunt signals referred to by some of my colleagues as 'dummys'.  

 

Can anyone clear up the origin of this please?

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13 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

I have often heard ground shunt signals referred to by some of my colleagues as 'dummys'.  

 

Can anyone clear up the origin of this please?

Dummies was commonly used on the Western for ground discs and GPLs - goes back a very long way into the mists of time.  On some parts of the Eastern they were called 'dolliess and both terms might well be in use elsewhere.  Obviously the name once used in the part of the railway where you work has disappeared into history because down there ground discs they were known as 'Tommy Dodds' or 'Dodds' -  that definitely dated back to LB&SCR days.

 

Modern subsidiary position light signals used to be commonly known on some parts of the Southern Region as 'the lunar lights' which is of course taken from the the colour they showed in which in the the was past described as 'lunar white';  on the Southern they were of course a relatively late (1960s) arrival replacing the SR standard of using an illuminated disc signal as a subsidiary signal.  I have also heard of subsidiary position lights being described as 'subs' (very wide usage and probably the most common term - at least it's accurately descriptive) and another term which I think was used on the Southern was 'dodgers' - that might possibly be a corruption of Dodds because I can't think where else it might have come from. 

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Another term frequently used for colour light subsidiary aspects on the LM region was Cat's Eyes.

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1 hour ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Another term frequently used for colour light subsidiary aspects on the LM region was Cat's Eyes.

And feathers can be "bunnies ears".

 

Loaded passenger trains can only accept a Subsidiary signal as authority if it is a calling on move into an occupied section a. These are shown in the sectional appendix. Usually for attaching moves or platform sharing.

 

Will

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4 minutes ago, WillCav said:

And feathers can be "bunnies ears".

 

Will

Or “Lunars” on the Southern 

 

Andi

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Another term frequently used for colour light subsidiary aspects on the LM region was Cat's Eyes.


Which gives rise to the rather inappropriate question old hand drivers like to ask new starters, “Why do they use cats eyes?”

 

Answer: “Because if they used ar****oles you’d need twice as many cats.”

Edited by NorthEndCab
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3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Dummies was commonly used on the Western for ground discs and GPLs - goes back a very long way into the mists of time.  On some parts of the Eastern they were called 'dolliess and both terms might well be in use elsewhere.  Obviously the name once used in the part of the railway where you work has disappeared into history because down there ground discs they were known as 'Tommy Dodds' or 'Dodds' -  that definitely dated back to LB&SCR days.

 

Modern subsidiary position light signals used to be commonly known on some parts of the Southern Region as 'the lunar lights' which is of course taken from the the colour they showed in which in the the was past described as 'lunar white';  on the Southern they were of course a relatively late (1960s) arrival replacing the SR standard of using an illuminated disc signal as a subsidiary signal.  I have also heard of subsidiary position lights being described as 'subs' (very wide usage and probably the most common term - at least it's accurately descriptive) and another term which I think was used on the Southern was 'dodgers' - that might possibly be a corruption of Dodds because I can't think where else it might have come from. 

 

I recall some of the old school drivers at Derby calling them dollies.  I well remember the look of bewilderment on the face of a younger member of station staff when a Sheffield bound HST was held up at Derby because the panel had set the sub route instead of the main route and upon enquiring of the very old school driver about the nature of the problem was told in the broadest of Derbyshire accents that "the dozy beggar has pulled off the dolly".  At least I knew what he meant.

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There are exceptions where a sub signal can regulate a passenger train movements apart from calling into stations for attaching. One such example is where the main signal has failed it is permitted to use the sub signal if it can be cleared for that specific route that the main signal normally would be used for.

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The lenses of these subs are quite interesting as well. When unlit they look blue, which is to off set the yellow tinge of the incandescant  lamp behind them, so that you get a good clear white display. The glass colour being described as 'lunar white'. The LED version obviously doesn't have that problem... 

 

Andy G

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20 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

 

Modern subsidiary position light signals used to be commonly known on some parts of the Southern Region as 'the lunar lights' which is of course taken from the the colour they showed in which in the the was past described as 'lunar white';  on the Southern they were of course a relatively late (1960s) arrival replacing the SR standard of using an illuminated disc signal as a subsidiary signal.  

 

While Mike isn't incorrect in suggesting that the term "lunars" was sometimes used on the Southern to describe position light subs, it is potentially misleading as the Southern also had official "lunar lights" which were indeed white but which informed pw staff in confined areas that a train was signalled. They were part of the signalling system, and indeed had to be proved alight before the relevant aspect(s) would clear, but uniquely(?) they didn't convey any message to train drivers. There were several of them between Borough Market Junction and Metropolitan Junction on both sides of the line but there were other locations too. Unofficially again, it wasn't unknown for the three-light junction indicators on the Southern to be referred to as "lunars" and that may indeed have been the first everyday use of the term, I have certainly heard drivers phoning the bobby to complain that "the lunar isn't lit" when they have come to a stand because the route ahead was wrongly set - despite a general practice in the electrified area of "following the signals" (providing that the route set was electrified and that the driver knew the road) and then stopping at the first station/major station on the diversion for further instructions.

 

The first use of position light subs that I can be certain of on the Southern was at some or all of the new boxes opened in connection with the Kent Coast Electrification of 1959, Sittingbourne and the Sheerness branch certainly had them.

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