R6943 Hornby 3 Plank Open Wagon GWR Brown

[dube]

Is this an accurate wagon for the GWR in the 1930`s ?

 

[petethemole]

No, the GWR adopted steel underframes in the 1880s.  The earlier wooden solebars didn't look like that; plus it should be grey.    

[tomparryharry]

A lot of the major producers make 'generic' wagons. Naturally, generic wagons are 'OK-ish' and as such, price versus fidelity doesn't match. If you want to have a good and accurate model, the companies like Parkside & Cambrian are good places to look, but they will be kits. Likewise, if Coopercraft have their act together, have a look over there. 

 

Hornby have made their Toad brake van in recent years, and it's rather very good; better in some respects than the Ratio kit. 

 

If you haven't got a copy yet, may I recommend a book "A history of GWR Goods Wagons" by Atkins, Beard, Hyde& Tourret. ISBN 0-7153-8725-1. It's my go-to book for this, and I'm sure many modellers will agree. 

 

Edit. Having looked over at the Hattons site, the wagon displayed is an earlier-era wagon, with wooden headstocks and various little inconsistencies. By the 1930's, Western wooden wagons had worked through their 'book value' and as such were being disposed. However, many, many thousands of Private Owner wagons existed just like the example, and they lasted from the 1860's, right up until the 1960's. Nice RTR model of a side-loading Private Owner wagon, though.

 

Happy modelling. 

 

Ian.       

[dube]

Looks like Hornby messed up when they put new chassis on the old Airfix 3, 4 and 6 plank wagons which I think are to 1887 RCH designs, unlikely to have 4 shoe brake gear, brake handles both sides and oil axel boxes, made some Cambrian kits a few years ago and not too impressed with the poor fit. Surprised no one does RTR coal wagons to 1907 RCH design the most common wagons on the railways between the wars.

[gwrrob]

Hornby are taking advantage of the uneducated here for a sale ,a bit like their horsebox that they now say is a N13 to justify the large letters, when in reality they never had them on a later diagram. This wagon is  OK for little Johnny to add to his train set but not for the discerning GWR modeller.

[tomparryharry]

What can be achieved, is to remove certain brake parts to comply with the older RCH designs. Either-side brake, versus the Morton variety, that sort of thing. Choose your period of modelling wisely, mind! It's easier to remove, than to replace!

[melmerby]

 

1 hour ago, petethemole said:

No, the GWR adopted steel underframes in the 1880s.  The earlier wooden solebars didn't look like that; plus it should be grey.    

The number is of an early three plank wooden underframe wagon that would have been brown

 

But it is far from accurate in any detail.

Edited July 2, 2020 by melmerby

[lofty1966]

2 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

 

Hornby have made their Toad brake van in recent years, and it's rather very good; better in some respects than the Ratio kit.

 

Happy modelling. 

 

Ian.       

The last Hornby Toad van pee's all over the Ratio kit.

Ratios version is a mix n' match twixt diagrams.

[tomparryharry]

2 hours ago, lofty1966 said:

The last Hornby Toad van pee's all over the Ratio kit.

Ratios version is a mix n' match twixt diagrams.

 

Yes, no argument there. what I would say however, is that the venerable Ratio kit is a suitable springboard for many of the variations of Toads. For example, the AA16, AA22 and the P-Way plough van are all worthwhile projects that can be made. Saves cutting about a rather nice RTR brakevan, IMHO.

 

Cheers,

Ian. 

[wainwright1]

8 hours ago, dube said:

Looks like Hornby messed up when they put new chassis on the old Airfix 3, 4 and 6 plank wagons which I think are to 1887 RCH designs, unlikely to have 4 shoe brake gear, brake handles both sides and oil axel boxes, made some Cambrian kits a few years ago and not too impressed with the poor fit. Surprised no one does RTR coal wagons to 1907 RCH design the most common wagons on the railways between the wars.

 

These were not Airfix wagons, they were new tooled by Hornby and mounted on a Gloucester style chassis, albeit not up to current standard having the V hanger stepped. This chassis has recently been replaced by a new more realistic one, though not to a Gloucester style. This is unfortunate as when Hornby produced their first Huntley and Palmer's Peckett they also produced a H & P wagon which was relatively accurate. This sold well, so they decided to produce another H & P Peckett in a limited edition set with three H & P wagons. Of course they had now changed the chassis, so the wagons were no longer accurate.

 

9 hours ago, petethemole said:

No, the GWR adopted steel underframes in the 1880s.  The earlier wooden solebars didn't look like that; plus it should be grey.    

 

Hornby have produced multiple issues of the Maunsell 2+2 planked van supposedly in Southern large lettered livery. These vans were not built until 1936 onward, so never carried this livery and Hornby also painted them a bauxite colour instead of Southern chocolate brown, doubly incorrect.

 

Hornby also produced a three plank drop side wagon a couple of years ago painted in S.E. & C.R. livery. The wagon number used (illustrated in the S.E. & C.R. wagons book) was for a drop door not a drop side wagon, but there is drop side wagon illustrated in the book which would have been a dead ringer !

 

On the good side, not long ago, Hornby and Oxford both produced a North British open wagon. Guess who got the livery right, Yep it was Hornby, the Oxford was much too light grey.

 

All the best

Ray

[petethemole]

Similarly, not long ago some Hornby train sets featured their version of a GWR vent van in bauxite with large 'G W' or in GWR style dark grey with 'N E' in large lettering.  They could be had very cheaply from split sets and were great for repainting. 

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, melmerby said:

 

The number is of an early three plank wooden underframe wagon that would have been brown

 

But it is far from accurate in any detail.

 

Old series Lot 325, 200 wagons built in the mid-1880s, Nos. 39606-39805; there were over 6,000 3-plank wagons built 1879-1887. Here's my model of No. 39718 of the same Lot, from the David Geen kit:

 

 

Lettering follows the style of a smiliar wagon, No. 260,  seen in a photo of Cinderford c. 1890:

There's considerable debate over the red colour used for Great Western wagons in the 19th century; my preference is for red lead, represented by Halfords rattle-can red primer. One thing we can be sure of is that at no time were these wagons chocolate brown with black ironwork - where on Earth did Hornby get that from?

 

Also, of course, the Hornby wagon has drop-sides - a very common type that could pass for prototypes from over half-a-dozen pre-grouping railways as well as being typical of the type of wagon used by civil engineering contractors. The Great Western 3-plank wagons have fixed sides with a central drop door. Plus of course the iron frames already mentioned - though I believe some early Lots were built with wooden frames.

 

Edited July 2, 2020 by Compound2632

[The Johnster]

On 02/07/2020 at 20:39, wainwright1 said:

Hornby have produced multiple issues of the Maunsell 2+2 planked van supposedly in Southern large lettered livery. These vans were not built until 1936 onward, so never carried this livery and Hornby also painted them a bauxite colour instead of Southern chocolate brown, doubly incorrect.

 

Bachmann have done exactly the same with theirs in terms of the large SR lettering.  They have, however, produced it in a correct GW austerity livery.  I'd previously thought the large SR was correct, and that the vans were of SECR origin, having the distinctive Ashford roof and planking, but if they were not produced until 1936 my SR Baccy Ashford needs a repaint, or at least a re-lettering.

 

To explain and avoid confusion, during the war all production was by permission and authority of the Ministry of Supply, and this body instructed all companies that needed new box vans to source them from the Southern at Ashford, the reason being that Ashford had a large store of pre-cut planking that was of no use for anything else, rather than divert fresh timber that was a priority material for military use to van building by the other railways.  Baccy correctly produce LMS and GW liveries for vans supplied to those railways, but not AFAIK the LNE version (happy to be corrected), and also an M prefixed BR grey liveried version.  

[wainwright1]

Hi Johnster.

 

Don't forget that Bachmann have produced models of the three types of Southern vans: even plank, 2 + 2 plank and the plywood version. These are all on the 10ft wheelbase chassis. They have not produced the even planks on the 9ft wheelbase chassis which the earliest ones were mounted on. The Southern vans were evolved from the last type of SECR van, the Maunsell/Lynes design which had hinged doors and a drop flap door and these were mounted on the then standard 9ft 6in wheelbase chassis.

The 2 + 2 planked and plywood ones were built post 1936 so never carried the large letter style livery only the small lettered type. I think that Bachmann have only used the large lettering correctly on the even plank one. They would all have been painted Southern chocolate brown livery in SR days, and again I think that Bachmann have done this on all their models. They would have been painted bauxite or grey in BR days as appropriate if they were fitted or unfitted. I was aware that vans were also built for the GWR and LMS during the war and these would also have carried their small lettered livery. I think that Bachmann have also done these correctly. (Though Dapol have not). I do not think that I have seen any reference to the building this type of van for the LNER, though I could be wrong.. Although I think a few may have been built later for the Longmoor Military Railway.

 

All the best

Ray

[The Johnster]

Thanks Ray; I guess your username suggests I should listen to you on matters SECR, Southern, and Ashford.  I was under an impression that some Ashford Vans, as I call them, were built for the LNER but I may be (probably am) wrong.  I came across LMS and GW versions working on the railway in the 70s, but never saw a plywood version with other than an 'S' prefix.  The ones I saw in the 70s were all vacuum fitted with 3 hole disc wheels, and XP rated.

 

My Bachmann brown liveried van with large SR lettering is indeed even planked and does not therefore require repainting or relettering, buy the wheelbase is 6" too long; it is the same chassis as my other Bachmann Ashfords, a 10' wheelbase chassis correct for all my other Ashford vans.  I like Ashfords and have quite a few, but not yet a GW, BR bauxite, or plywood example.  I model early period BR and have not compunction in using them in various liveries.  I'm back pedalling a bit on impulse buying vans for a while at the moment as I need to get the ratio of opens to vans a bit more even.  An even planked Ashford in large SR livery is not implausible at the beginning of my period, 1948, but less likely by 1958, the nominal end of it.

[wainwright1]

Hi Johnster.

 

I think that your SR large lettered van has the correct wheelbase. Ratio also do the three versions as kits, but I cannot remember if they do a 9ft wheelbase chassis for their even plank version. If you wanted an ex-SE&CR van with the 9ft 6in wheelbase chassis, there is a very nice kit available from Cambrian Models as per the one on the left. The wagon on the right is the seven plank on the same chassis.

 

All the best.

Ray

 

 

[The Johnster]

Thanks again Ray.  I've probably got enough Ashford vans to be going on with, and will not be venturing into SECR livery territory; my period is 1948-58 so a large lettered SR van is possible but needs to be filthy.  It is...  I am finding it hard to resist a BR liveried plywood Ashford, though, and have promised myself to achieve a ratio of 50/50 vans and opens in general, ballpark for the period, before buying more vans.  It's a fairly small fleet, only about 3 times as many vehicles as are needed (!) and only 3 more opens are needed to achieve parity, and a plywood Ashford will be one of the first new vans in over a year.  I also 'need' (one of the reasons for choosing this period is the biodiversity of stock and liveries) a Southern 5-plank open.

[Compound2632]

I see that Hornby have now issued the 3-plank dropside wagon as a LSWR Engineer's Dept. wagon. The Hornby wagon has a broad resemblance to the wagons assigned Southern Railway Diagram 1301, though these were a little longer at 15'4 over headstocks and wider, 7'11" [G. Bixley et al., Southern Wagons Vol. 1 (OPC, 1984)]. Bixley has a photograph, Plate 16, showing such a wagon in Engineer's livery but as smartly turned out for the camera in 1948, I believe. I haven't found a photo showing Hornby's livery style but no doubt one exists. The wagon seems to be the same shade of brown as the GW wagon but at least in this case that is about right - much closer to the right shade than the pale brown of the Warner brake van! But the black ironwork is once again spurious.

[Compound2632]

17 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The wagon seems to be the same shade of brown as the GW wagon but at least in this case that is about right - much closer to the right shade than the pale brown of the Warner brake van! But the black ironwork is once again spurious.

 

It's been pointed out that LSWR Engineer's Department wagons were painted red oxide...