Private Owner Wagon EG Keay Norton-in-Hales

[1722]

Hi all,

 

I came across the following entry in my IRS Industrial Locos of North Staffordshire book.

 

 

As I’m planning a layout of Norton-in-Hales I’d love a replica of this PO wagon on it yet have been unable to unearth any picture or info regarding it. Even EG Keay doesn’t turn up any hits on web searches either. 
 

So, I’m wondering if anyone, by any chance has an image of what they looked like that they would be able to share please. 
 

Any help would be hugely appreciated. 
 

Thanks for reading,

 

Chris

[lanchester]

A swift Google revealed some memoirs by a Mary Keay from Norton on Hale (which as I am sure you have spotted is actually in Shropshire, not Staffordshire) which mention an EG Keay as being the Postmaster (and i/c telephone exchange 'had it moved into his house' in 1933). I wonder therefore whether the IRS has got muddled and EG Keay is effectively the 'post restante' for some one else whose wagon this actually was? 

[Steamport Southport]

I think were talking about locomotives A is usually Avonside. To me that entry suggests they owned one between 1923 and 1927. Whilst the question mark means they don't know the number.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Compound2632]

I'm not familiar with the IRS books so find this entry cryptic but, @Steamport Southport, @1722 says it refers to a wagon. It's quite possible that the postmaster was also a coal merchant. Kelly's Directories may help. But unless the wagon was from one of the major firms whose photgraphic archives survive, chances of finding out what it looked like are slim. Your best bet might be the photo album of a descendant.

[Steamport Southport]

30 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm not familiar with the IRS books so find this entry cryptic but, @Steamport Southport, @1722 says it refers to a wagon. It's quite possible that the postmaster was also a coal merchant. Kelly's Directories may help. But unless the wagon was from one of the major firms whose photgraphic archives survive, chances of finding out what it looked like are slim. Your best bet might be the photo album of a descendant.

 

Why would they mention wagons in a book about locomotives?

 

I haven't got this issue but I have a few others and A normally means Avonside. Just as P is Peckett. HE is Hunslet, etc.

 

So I'm reading that entry as an Avonside with an unknown number which was owned between 1923 and 1927.

 

The place had a station so was rail connected.

 

https://www.nortoninhales.org/single-post/2017/06/01/The-Railway-Station

 

 

 

Jason

Edited July 2, 2020 by Steamport Southport
Missed the E out of Hunslet

[Compound2632]

Looking at the 25" OS maps on the NLS website, there's no rail connected industry in the vicinity of Norton in Hales. The line was Knotty, which perhaps explains its inclusion in a North Staffordshire handbook.

 

We await @1722's elucidation.

[1722]

Thanks for the responses so far. 
 

I have attached another pic of the first page of the chapter the above entry was in, all data copyright of the IRS of course. 
 

As mentioned above, Norton is right on the Staffs/Shropshire border on the Market Drayton - Stoke line.  Through the good people of the North Staffs Railway study group, now have plenty of track plans etc, none of which suggest any rail served industry such as a coal merchant. There was a weighbridge behind the station with a couple of sidings at one point. 
 

I think I will just end up getting some custom decals printed as I’m very aware that it might potentially not have existed in the guise mentioned, that EG Keay actually owned wagons, and that any chance of a photo is a real needle in a haystack odds. 
 

Therefore, perhaps the question should be ‘what information would appear on such a wagon?’
 

Thanks all for your input. 

[Compound2632]

48 minutes ago, 1722 said:

I think I will just end up getting some custom decals printed as I’m very aware that it might potentially not have existed in the guise mentioned, that EG Keay actually owned wagons, and that any chance of a photo is a real needle in a haystack odds. 
 

Therefore, perhaps the question should be ‘what information would appear on such a wagon?’

 

Perhaps firstly, what type of wagon? For the early grouping period, it could possibly be an RCH 1923 standard 12 ton wagon but it is much more likely to be older, maybe an RCH 1907 standard 10 ton wagon (7 or 6.5 plank) - Cambrian do a variety of such, mostly Gloucester types - or possibly an RCH 1887 standard 10 ton (7 or 6 plank) or 8 ton wagon (5 plank) - Slaters Gloucester types. As a wagon operated by a local coal merchant, it would have side and possibly bottom doors, but not an end door.

 

Base colour: black or a shade of grey were commonest, followed by red; more exotic colours were rather rare. Black ironwork; lettering shaded black if the base colour is not black, possibly shaded red if the base colour is black though unshade was more common.

 

Company name spread out on the top two to four planks. On maybe the second or third plank up, COAL & COKE MERCHANT (or subsitute for COKE, LIME or BRICK). Bottom plank, NORTON IN HALES on left, fleet number, e.g. No. 1* on right, or vice versa. Tare on curb rail at LH end, Load 10 Tons at RH end. Overall effect like this. Or, one might go for a trendy style with the company name on the diagonal - sometimes in a panel. Browse the literature for inspiration! But keep it simple. 

 

*But merchants with one or few wagons often liked to give the impression their fleet was bigger by using higher numbers.

[1722]

Thank you @Compound2632, very useful information. I’ve got a Parkside 7 plank kit to use. I’d thought dark grey as the base colour. Particularly like the way companies used bigger numbers! I’ll do that for sure. 
 

Thank you again.

[1722]

Thank you @Compound2632, very useful information. I’ve got a Parkside 7 plank kit to use. I’d thought dark grey as the base colour. Particularly like the way companies used bigger numbers! I’ll do that for sure. 
 

Thank you again.

[wagonman]

The 1913 Kelly's Directory is the latest one I can find – this has a William Henry Keay recorded as a farmer and James Meakin & Sons Ltd as coal merchants. Keay had a son Edwin George, born April 1896 who would seem a likely candidate. The 1911 census merely records him as a 'Farmers son working on farm' but then he was only 14 at the time. William died in 1921 but there were older sons to inherit Brook Farm, assuming they survived the war. None of which helps you with your wagon livery of course...

 

James Meakin & Sons Ltd are still in business – they're based in Market Drayton – and may well have had wagons though they're not in the PO Wagons index. I don't know if Keay set up in opposition to Meakin, or they had withdrawn as there wasn't sufficient business – the population was under 400 – but either way Keay is unlikely to have bought a new 1923-spec wagon when there were plenty of smaller, older, cheaper wagons around. That he later became the Postmaster rather suggests his venture was not a success?

 

You can have plenty of fun building Stoke area wagons...

 

 

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, wagonman said:

but either way Keay is unlikely to have bought a new 1923-spec wagon when there were plenty of smaller, older, cheaper wagons around.

 

But it is much more likely that any wagons he used were hired rather than bought outright, so the wagon company he was hiring from could as well have supplied a new one as an old one. As a small-time merchant, he might have found 12 ton deliveries a bit much and would prefer a 10 ton wagon or even an 8 ton, if he could get one.

[wagonman]

Indeed. Small coal merchants were among the last users of 8-ton wagons as they much preferred them; 12-tons was too much to deal with. Granted his wagon would likely have been hired, or bought on deferred payments, but it would still have been cheaper which was one of my points.

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, wagonman said:

Granted his wagon would likely have been hired, or bought on deferred payments, but it would still have been cheaper which was one of my points.

 

Would it have been simply the fact of its being older - having been hired out to other merchants maybe several times - that would have made it cheaper, or the fact that it was of lower capacity? Or both?

[wagonman]

Mostly it would be because of its age of course. I don't think they were building new 8-tonners in 1923.

[Mark Saunders]

Has anyone looked in a Handbook of Stations for an appropriate entry?

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

Has anyone looked in a Handbook of Stations for an appropriate entry?

 

Is there one listing merchants using stations? The RCH Handbook does not do so. For Norton-in-Hales, it lists the usual facilities for goods, passengers, livestock, etc. but there was no crane a no facilities for dealing with furniture vans.

[wagonman]

53 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

Has anyone looked in a Handbook of Stations for an appropriate entry?

 

I've only got the 1904 edition though I believe there was a facsimile of the 1923 edition. It wouldn't list coal merchants unless they had their own private siding – which Keay didn't.

 

There was an article in the Model Railways magazine (exMRN) back in the '70s/'80s which gave a detailed analysis of the traffic at Norton-in-Hales, including its use for stabling race day trains from Market Drayton. Might be useful for operating your layout.

[wagonman]

Consulting Leleux's Index – which doesn't go later than 1974 – there was something about Norton-in-Hales (probably a drawing of the station building) in a 1964 edition of Railway Modeller. Don't know what month but it was page 277.

[1722]

Now a drawing of the station would also be very useful indeed!! I will have to investigate 1964 editions of the Modeller!

 

Hugely enjoyable - and informative - responses everyone, thank you very much. 

[wagonman]

19 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

*But merchants with one or few wagons often liked to give the impression their fleet was bigger by using higher numbers.

 

An example comes to mind: Maurice Jones of Weston super Mare whose only (so far as I know) wagon was numbered 40, which just happened to be his age the year he bought it. Perhaps it was a birthday present to himself?

 

Phipps of Devizes had five wagons numbered 111, 222, 333, 444, and 555.

 

And so on...

[watfordtmc]

The Railway Modeller item is a photograph, taken end-on, from the overbridge.  No drawing I’m afraid.

Ref:  Railway Modeller, October 1964, Vol. 15, No. 168.  Page 277.

 

The Model Railways article was titled: Goods Traffic at Norton-in-Hales, by Bernard Holland – as mentioned above.  It describes his analysis of the Wagon and Sheet Book for the station, which was in use between August 1929 and March 1943, so post-dates the period of the Keay locomotive.

 

The Wagon and Sheet Book recorded the arrival (and departure) of wagons at Norton-in Hales, and the article cites a selection of years during the 1930’s.

 

No local coal merchant is noted but coal came largely from Potteries collieries, either in colliery wagons or – if I’m reading the article correctly – wagons operated by a J. Potts, described at a coal agent and factor based at Macclesfield.

Ref:  Model Railways, August 1974, Vol. 3, No. 8.  Pages 389-391.

 

Regards

TMc

 

[1722]

3 hours ago, watfordtmc said:

The Railway Modeller item is a photograph, taken end-on, from the overbridge.  No drawing I’m afraid.

Ref:  Railway Modeller, October 1964, Vol. 15, No. 168.  Page 277.

 

The Model Railways article was titled: Goods Traffic at Norton-in-Hales, by Bernard Holland – as mentioned above.  It describes his analysis of the Wagon and Sheet Book for the station, which was in use between August 1929 and March 1943, so post-dates the period of the Keay locomotive.

 

The Wagon and Sheet Book recorded the arrival (and departure) of wagons at Norton-in Hales, and the article cites a selection of years during the 1930’s.

 

No local coal merchant is noted but coal came largely from Potteries collieries, either in colliery wagons or – if I’m reading the article correctly – wagons operated by a J. Potts, described at a coal agent and factor based at Macclesfield.

Ref:  Model Railways, August 1974, Vol. 3, No. 8.  Pages 389-391.

 

Regards

TMc

 

Thanks very much for the info. Will look at a certain auction site and try to obtain copies. 
 

Again, all replies very much appreciated. Thank you all. 

[wagonman]

A swift and dirty copy out of a book (PO Wagons of the Ice Waggon & Ironworks Co by J A Watts) of Potts wagon 531, a 12-ton wagon built in 1910 to dimensions slightly smaller than the 19213 standard. Livery was dark red with white lettering shaded black. I don't know of any RCH 1923 wagons owned or operated by the company.  Wagons merely hired were painted in a similar livery but with the body in grey, according to Watts.