The Night Mail

[Happy Hippo]

Back to the Common Branch Junction saga.

 

When looking at the three track diagrams, the height of traffic was in the period leading up to WWI, after which the decline slowly but surely set in.

 

Coal production after 1919 slowly ebbed away with many of the smaller mines closing as being uneconomic.

 

What is interesting is the complexity of the trap arrangement in the mid period diagram, where all three sidings in the loco shed are have an individual trap point with a single disc signal controlling all three.  The previous arrangement of one trap and one disc would have been equally effective.  Also of note is the way the GWR signalled the much rationalised track plan,  the loops being bi directional. The TVR had the loop as more of a siding although it was properly signalled off the line from Waterhall, the northbound exit from the loop was controlled by a disc.

 

This meant that northbound trains could not be routed through the loop as was possible in later years after the GWR rationalised the track and signalling.

 

Trains travelling south from the loop to either Waterhall or Llantrisant were signalled off the loop with full sized signals, and northbound trains from Llantrisant were also able to route through either the loop or the main (but would terminate).  Southbound from Tonteg, the loop could only be accessed by a ground disc as the bracket signal controlled the main and the line through to Llantrisant Common.

 

There is a large preponderance of disc signals to duplicate shunting moves that could possibly have been covered by the main signals.  Was this a TVR idiosyncrasy or were they really necessary?

 

That aside, imagine what fun could be had with 1894 track plan if one had the space.

 

I presume the lack of exit signalling northbound from the loop, and the absence of any through routing from Tonteg, through the loop and on to Llantrisant was due to the operational practice mentioned earlier of  trains from Waterhall being propelled as far as CBJ and thence returning to Waterhall.

 

I find these aspects of railway operation fascinating and it takes up far too much of my time which would probably be better spent making things rather than researching another interesting (to me), facet of the way railways used to be worked.

 

If I was not so committed to the Aberflyarff project, this one could tempt me.

 

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by Happy Hippo

[Philou]

Hello fellow TNMers,

 

I've been trying to catch up on all the natter - I am still here - just it's been busy. I couldn't let Mr Hippo have all the roofing fun so I had a go as well, especially as the weather has been really, really fine here in dwyrain Frainc. It was up to 34° a couple of days or so ago. Now the sun has set it's down to a reasonable 25°. Anyway, my roofing work was redoing the flashing between our barn, our roof and that of our neighbour's roof. I had removed the awful cement fillet between theirs and our barn wall - last year (oops)! I thought I should now just get on with it. The problem is the French don't really like lead and it's not always available (it's taken nearly a month to get some in) - they prefer their horrible zinc plated steel. Me? I love working with lead, easy to fashion and cuts with a Stanley knife - so two loads of flashing done over the last two days. Just as well as rain is now forecast for a few days.

 

Mmmmm ..... Eccles cakes. The bestest ever Eccles cake I have eaten came from yer 'umble Greggs - in Porthcawl. Used to go there whenever I was out in that part of the world doing my site visits and try to time it just as they came out of the oven - hot, crunchy sugar coating, buttery tasting and chock full of flies - unlike some I had from elsewhere that were cold, limp and with a thin layer of dark mush inside. Out of interest, who does the best ones (commercially) now in the UK?

 

Here's one for Jamie, do you know why when you go into a Patissier here in France, seemingly the same cakes have different prices?

 

 

 

 

 

Because over here, they're sold by weight! And another item sold by weight are cast-iron pans bought in a quincaillerie! 'Bizarre' thought I, when the local Arkwright weighed the frying pan that I was about to buy. I thought better of asking for fork 'andles - wouldn't have worked in French I suppose.

 

Mention was made of Marie-Antoinette and 'let them eat cake'. It's all lies and propaganda. It was put about to wind up the local populace. What she actually said was 'Let them eat brioche', which as we all know is bread made with milk rather than water. She, not ever really having been with the plebs, just assumed that as there was no bread, then could eat the alternative, brioche. End result was the same - one slice or two!

 

Back to railways - I had a parcel arrive last weekend containing a nice green engine - no, not a panneer - but a rather spiffing Prairie - I likes a Prairie I does aaarrh!

 

I missed the speak like a pirate day (catching up, see). I did turn up in the house with turned down wellies and an eye-patch a couple of months back whilst the grandchildren were here, giving all 'aaarrrh lan'lubbers, it be speak like a poirate day'. I think a cup of cold sick would have got a better reaction ....... the French are just not into pirates at all! They even had a famous one of their own, a girl to boot (IIRC).

 

Back to the repointing tomorrow - if the rain holds off.

 

Cheers everyone and have a good evening,

 

Philip

[Happy Hippo]

1 hour ago, Philou said:

 

 

Here's one for Jamie, do you know why when you go into a Patissier here in France, seemingly the same cakes have different prices?

 

I thought it might be a play on this:

 

A guy goes into a Scottish bakery and asks "How much is that cake?"

 

"A poond."

 

"And how much is that one?"

 

"A poond. All ma cakes are a poond!"

 

"Oh, OK. What about that one?" "Ach, that one's two poonds."

 

"Oh. Why's that then?"

 

"That's Madeira cake.

 

 

[Happy Hippo]

1 hour ago, Philou said:

Back to railways - I had a parcel arrive last weekend containing a nice green engine - no, not a panneer - but a rather spiffing Prairie - I likes a Prairie I does aaarrh!

I would like a small prairie, but unfortunately the 45xx were not common in South Wales.  If Dapol do reintroduce the Lionheart 4575 version I might be tempted, although it might be wasted on auto working.  If I were minded to try Heljan's offering of a 61xx (I'd renumber to a 41xx) and I could get away with running it on Splott West, but it is not high on the priority list. A 56xx(or two) and a 94xx (34xx series) being much more appropriate locos for what I have in mind.

 

At the moment that involves either kit or scratch building them which is something my old age has discouraged me from doing.

 

 

[figworthy]

20 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

Not having any time for your hobbies as life is immediately taken up with more important issues.

 

Yet to find any.

 

Adrian

[figworthy]

4 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

We've just been stripping the Russett Apples out of their tree.

 

It's been a bumper crop this year, although the Worcester's and Bramley's have both been disappointing.

 

 

Interesting.  I've got a Cox's, and the crop this year has been rather poor (under 10), and of those, only one has been eatable, the rest had already been got at by the beasties.  Some years I don't get anything, one year I got 25, all eatable.

 

Adrian

[Philou]

I'll see your 10 Coxes and raise you three! That's all we had this year, and they're all shrivelled - even the wasps are giving them a miss. It was unfortunate that there was one evening of frost when our pippin and peach tree were in bloom - result no fruit - whereas the Best Boskoop flowered the week before and we've never had such a crop nor size of apple before (except it's the wasps and hornets busy tucking into them ).

 

I never thought of whether I could justify a Prairie on my proposed layout - impulsive purchase on my part. Ah well, Rules 1 and 2 will have to apply otherwise.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Happy Hippo]

5 minutes ago, Philou said:

I never thought of whether I could justify a Prairie on my proposed layout - impulsive purchase on my part.

My only impulse purchase in 7 mm scale has been the Heljan class 25/1.  Totally off the wall purchase, but I really like a nice Rat!

 

I suppose I could make the G0G small layout competition layout a Midland(ish) affair, as the last pannier I bought was a Shrewsbury allocated example.   I'd have to change the signals to upper quadrants, but since they are not yet built, it would not be a difficult job.

 

Other purchases since that mad rush of blood to the head have been carefully planned as impulse buys tend to have a detrimental effect on my wellbeing.

 

However, I do sometimes think I should have bought some blue diesels to extend the time periods I could model.

 

I suppose I could always respray them.  After all, it's all over blue with yellow ends. 

 

I think I got over the impulse buying when I was into 4 mm scale.

 

I'm still trying to get rid of most of them!

 

 

[Dave Hunt]

I haven't visited TNM since yesterday so I missed all the earlier excitement of HH's latest acquisition - no, not another pannier but a granddaughter. Congratulations Richard but also commiserations on the reduction in modelling tokens that it will entail. Today we went to see No. 1 son and his two offspring in Chesterfield as it is our grandson's birthday on Monday and there were presents to be taken, which represented a rather large hole in my stock of modelling tokens - hence my earlier commiserations. The trip was also my first go at driving following the four week ban resulting from my TIA and I'm sorry to say that during the hiatus the incidence of total f***wits on the roads has not diminished at all. About the worst was one who was on the inside lane of the M1 doing about 65 but just as I had overtaken him doing 70 he suddenly accelerated rapidly, undertook me and dived out through the narrow gap between me and the lorry in front of him, causing me to brake sharply, then continued into the outside lane nearly hitting a car coming up from behind, waved a two fingered salute and to cap it all then almost immediately swerved across in front of the traffic on the inside and middle lanes and off at an exit ramp. I have to confess that I said a few choice words as a result. 

 

Cheers all.

 

Dave   

[Erichill16]

I’ve also purchased a Heljan class 25 on impulse. I’d considered one but read the reviews and decided not to bother, however with money burning a hole in my pocket I bought one. 
When I got it home I was really disappointed with the finish, it looked really plasticy and together with the cab shape it was a real downer. I’d got it and was going to run it with my JLTRT class 24 but the difference in finish is extreme. I’m going to have to repaint it but originally I thought a weathering may do the trick. My other Heljans haven’t been too bad and look ok after a dose of weathering. A job for a tomorrow.

Robert

[bbishop]

Congratulations to das glückliche Nilpferd on becoming a grandfather again.  I read about it at Waterloo, but I  have read only access and anyway was rather busy dealing with the two pandemics.  The other one is the common cold.

 

I checked about the flu jab on my way home - expected in about three weeks - just a reminder for everyone to get AN INFLUENZA VACCINATION.

 

Then cooked supper, watched the Tour de France (didn't expect that), worked on a set of accounts and suddenly it is time for bed.

 

Bill

[Happy Hippo]

52 minutes ago, bbishop said:

Congratulations to das glückliche Nilpferd on becoming a grandfather again.  I read about it at Waterloo, but I  have read only access and anyway was rather busy dealing with the two pandemics.  The other one is the common cold.

 

I checked about the flu jab on my way home - expected in about three weeks - just a reminder for everyone to get AN INFLUENZA VACCINATION.

 

 

Our local pharmacy is advertising the flu jab.  so I'm going to get booked in for one asap.

 

Fortunately I've not had flu in many years.

[TheQ]

Luckily the company I work for offers free flu vaccinations every year,  it will be interesting to see the take up this year.  As it is, my doctors also offer me the jab, but I'm happy for an American company to save the NHS money..  I'm booked for the jab in a couple of weeks time. 

Edited September 20, 2020 by TheQ

[tomparryharry]

16 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

Back to the Common Branch Junction saga.

 

When looking at the three track diagrams, the height of traffic was in the period leading up to WWI, after which the decline slowly but surely set in.

 

Coal production after 1919 slowly ebbed away with many of the smaller mines closing as being uneconomic.

 

What is interesting is the complexity of the trap arrangement in the mid period diagram, where all three sidings in the loco shed are have an individual trap point with a single disc signal controlling all three.  The previous arrangement of one trap and one disc would have been equally effective.  Also of note is the way the GWR signalled the much rationalised track plan,  the loops being bi directional. The TVR had the loop as more of a siding although it was properly signalled off the line from Waterhall, the northbound exit from the loop was controlled by a disc.

 

This meant that northbound trains could not be routed through the loop as was possible in later years after the GWR rationalised the track and signalling.

 

Trains travelling south from the loop to either Waterhall or Llantrisant were signalled off the loop with full sized signals, and northbound trains from Llantrisant were also able to route through either the loop or the main (but would terminate).  Southbound from Tonteg, the loop could only be accessed by a ground disc as the bracket signal controlled the main and the line through to Llantrisant Common.

 

There is a large preponderance of disc signals to duplicate shunting moves that could possibly have been covered by the main signals.  Was this a TVR idiosyncrasy or were they really necessary?

 

That aside, imagine what fun could be had with 1894 track plan if one had the space.

 

I presume the lack of exit signalling northbound from the loop, and the absence of any through routing from Tonteg, through the loop and on to Llantrisant was due to the operational practice mentioned earlier of  trains from Waterhall being propelled as far as CBJ and thence returning to Waterhall.

 

I find these aspects of railway operation fascinating and it takes up far too much of my time which would probably be better spent making things rather than researching another interesting (to me), facet of the way railways used to be worked.

 

If I was not so committed to the Aberflyarff project, this one could tempt me.

 

 

 

I too, am well tempted by Common Branch junction. I lived about a mile from said place. To protect traffic whilst shunting, a signalman would protect the move by not allowing adjoining signal boxes to withdraw the token. So, Llantwit Fardre would 'ask on' to Common Branch Junction. CBJ would answer. LF then describes the train. CBJ won't answer. After all, he's got a shunting move going on. When the line is 'clear', only then can CBJ accept the train. 

 

For economy sake, trap points in very close proximity to each other, were sometimes signalled by one signal only. One example that springs to mind is at Maesmawr, where the trading estate traffic crossed over Power Station Hill (A473) into a small set of run -round loops. These loops were protected onto Maesmawrs' Down loop by the three traps, all on one signal. The SRS drawing should example this. 

 

Trains from CBJ - Waterhall were normally hauled, whereas Waterhall traffic for CBJ were normally propelled. The run-round loop at Waterhall facilitated this.  In later days, Traffic from Llantrisant-Cwm was always hauled both ways, but traffic to-from Creigau was hauled to CBJ, run-round, haul to Creigau. The quarry was on a trailing junction. Detach guards van, draw forward, reverse  points, and propel empties into quarry.  Draw out loaded, and propel back to guards van, and make up train. Detach locomotive back to the quarry via the headshunt. Withdraw empties, and propel back to loading line.  The locomotive then re-joins the train, and propels full train back to CBJ. 

 

On arrival, the complete train is now the right way to haul back to Llantrisant.   

 

I think I can remember that right......

Ian.

[Happy Hippo]

34 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

 

 

I too, am well tempted by Common Branch junction. I lived about a mile from said place. To protect traffic whilst shunting, a signalman would protect the move by not allowing adjoining signal boxes to withdraw the token. So, Llantwit Fardre would 'ask on' to Common Branch Junction. CBJ would answer. LF then describes the train. CBJ won't answer. After all, he's got a shunting move going on. When the line is 'clear', only then can CBJ accept the train. 

 

For economy sake, trap points in very close proximity to each other, were sometimes signalled by one signal only. One example that springs to mind is at Maesmawr, where the trading estate traffic crossed over Power Station Hill (A473) into a small set of run -round loops. These loops were protected onto Maesmawrs' Down loop by the three traps, all on one signal. The SRS drawing should example this. 

 

Trains from CBJ - Waterhall were normally hauled, whereas Waterhall traffic for CBJ were normally propelled. The run-round loop at Waterhall facilitated this.  In later days, Traffic from Llantrisant-Cwm was always hauled both ways, but traffic to-from Creigau was hauled to CBJ, run-round, haul to Creigau. The quarry was on a trailing junction. Detach guards van, draw forward, reverse  points, and propel empties into quarry.  Draw out loaded, and propel back to guards van, and make up train. Detach locomotive back to the quarry via the headshunt. Withdraw empties, and propel back to loading line.  The locomotive then re-joins the train, and propels full train back to CBJ. 

 

On arrival, the complete train is now the right way to haul back to Llantrisant.   

 

I think I can remember that right......

Ian.

Thanks for the insight.

 

The point I was trying to make about the traps and disc was  that in the earliest of the diagrams, the exit/entry road is covered by a single trap and disc signal.  The later diagram shows three traps, which did seem a little extravagant.  As with Maesmawr, I'd assume that the traps were individually worked with the disc interlocked so it could be pulled off whenever on of the traps was closed.  It does beg the question about what would happen, however improbable, if two trains were both waiting to exit the sidings and the disc is pulled off.

 

Garnant appears to have both it's sidings off the main with individual trap protection controlled by a single ringed home (goods) signal.  The private siding alongside them, I suspect, would have been under thedirect control of whoever was in charge of shunting it.

 

With all these operating matters, I'm sure there was a perfectly sound reason for any changes to signalling and track arrangements within the CBJ shed area.

 

According to a couple of pictures in the Chapman book on the post 1964 Creigau operations, trains were often topped and tailed with a brake van at each end. 

 

I presume it was quicker to do it that way rather than transfer the van to the tail of the train at CBJ prior to the run down to Creigau.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2020 by Happy Hippo

[tomparryharry]

18 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

Thanks for the insight.

 

The point I was trying to make about the traps and disc was  that in the earliest of the diagrams, the exit/entry road is covered by a single trap and disc signal.  The later diagram shows three traps, which did seem a little extravagant.  As with Maesmawr, I'd assume that the traps were individually worked with the disc interlocked so it could be pulled off whenever on of the traps was closed.  It does beg the question about what would happen, however improbable, if two trains were both waiting to exit the sidings and the disc is pulled off.

 

Garnant appears to have both it's sidings off the main with individual trap protection controlled by a single ringed home (goods) signal.  The private siding alongside them, I suspect, would have been under thedirect control of whoever was in charge of shunting it.

 

With all these operating matters, I'm sure there was a perfectly sound reason for any changes to signalling and track arrangements within the CBJ shed area.

 

According to a couple of pictures in the Chapman book on the post 1964 Creigau operations, trains were often topped and tailed with a brake van at each end. 

 

I presume it was quicker to do it that way rather than transfer the van to the tail of the train at CBJ prior to the run down to Creigau.

 

 

 

Yes, quite right. There were indeed 2 brakevans at times.  With regard to trap points, there is a gradient down to CBJ from Treferig Junction.  I'd surmise that the traps for the loco & carriage sheds at CBJ are there to protect the Common Junction-Treferig 'main' line. 

[Happy Hippo]

I am currently doing a Muttley impression.

 

Warren Shepard seems to have found a suitable prototype for me:

 

 

[Happy Hippo]

So has Julian at Taff Vale Models:

 

[Happy Hippo]

As a change to railways and general chit chat, I thought I'd drop in another general query:  This time, it's all about coincidence.

 

Our first  granddaughter and Nyda share a birthday.

 

Athough she was also born on the anniversary of my mother's mother's death.

 

Our second granddaughter was born on the anniversary of my mother's father's death.

 

Only a coincidence, but strange nevertheless.

 

Of course my mother, bless her, is reading all sorts of mystical and fantastic theories into this. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

40 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

As a change to railways and general chit chat, I thought I'd drop in another general query:  This time, it's all about coincidence.

 

Our first  granddaughter and Nyda share a birthday.

 

Athough she was also born on the anniversary of my mother's mother's death.

 

Our second granddaughter was born on the anniversary of my mother's father's death.

 

Only a coincidence, but strange nevertheless.

 

Of course my mother, bless her, is reading all sorts of mystical and fantastic theories into this. 

 

A close friend of mine shares a birthday with her mother. It's a 1 in 365 chance.

 

My parents had a car registration which had the same number as mine, a 1:1000 chance.

 

Nothing strange about either. Has to happen every so often. If there are a million births per annum, nearly 3000 will be on the day of the mother's birthday.

[Dave Hunt]

49 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

As a change to railways and general chit chat, I thought I'd drop in another general query:  This time, it's all about coincidence.....

...... Only a coincidence, but strange nevertheless.

 

Of course my mother, bless her, is reading all sorts of mystical and fantastic theories into this. 

 

Yes, such things do appear strange but the trouble with these 'spooky' coincidences is that when you look at the odds of such things happening they're actually not that great. Reading mystical meanings into them is a bit like adding up the letters in a name and 'proving' numerically that he or she is related to Genghis Khan or something. 

 

The practical benefit is that you only have one date to remember for two birthdays. Of course, should you forget you are doubly in the cr*p.  

 

Dave

[Stubby47]

Despite not being a Liverpool FC fan, one of their players I admired growing up was Jan Molby.

 

Turns out we were born on the very same day.

[jamie92208]

Both my mum and my mother in law died on the same date, though four years apart. Nevervwere Shakespea words "beware thevIdes of March" more true. However to commemmorate that we now go out every year on the 15th of March, have a good meal and raise a glass to absent friends. No longer a sad day.

 

Jamie

[tomparryharry]

I share the same birthday with George Harrison. Due to an oversight, I arrived without the talent, looks or money.

 

.... Sighs.....

[Dave Hunt]

Good grief, I went to the same school as George Harrison and now tomparry harry, who shared a birthday with Harrison, and I are posting on the same RNWeb forum!!!! This surely proves that the earth is being manipulated by beings from another dimension.

 

Dave