The Night Mail

[Happy Hippo]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

 

I do feel sorry for the poor women - clearly the victims of incompetence and/or supply chain failures in the service procurement and quartermaster's departments.

 

 

That's logistic support from our allies.

 

You'll note that the RAOC/RLC ensured that Waynetta was properly clothed. (Thank goodness)

[J. S. Bach]

2 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 ...snip... Don't forget also that the French were still active on the American mainland at the time, and the colonial administration also wished to exclude them from influence in their newly-independent polity

The Spanish also.

[rockershovel]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

More or less the position of the Nabobs of the EIC.

True, and if Westminster had been prepared to recognise that, then America would probably have remained British; Canada and the US might have been one country 

[rockershovel]

6 minutes ago, J. S. Bach said:

The Spanish also.

True, but on the other side of the continent and with no meaningful interaction with the Thirteen Colonies.

[PhilJ W]

Seeing as we're into flags a couple of quiz questions for the Brits about Old Glory.

1) How many red stripes are there on Old Glory and how many stars and what do those numbers represent. 

2) Which US state has the Union Flag incorporated in its state flag.

3) Which US state held a plebiscite as to whether they joined the US or Canada.

4) Which American state was recognized as an independent state by Britain before it joined the US.

Edited October 9, 2021 by PhilJ W

[J. S. Bach]

1 hour ago, rockershovel said:

True, but on the other side of the continent and with no meaningful interaction with the Thirteen Colonies.

They were active in Florida, also. A visit to St Augustine will show quite a bit of that heritage.

 

EDIT: And in Pensacola. The state capital (Tallahassee) was supposedly located by having a rider go east from Pensacola and a rider go west from St Augustine; where they met was approximately halfway between the two places so that was the capital's location.  I find that difficult to believe; if there were no real trails, how could they have met?

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by J. S. Bach

[PhilJ W]

3 minutes ago, J. S. Bach said:

They were active in Florida, also. A visit to St Augustine will show quite a bit of that heritage.

The French also colonised along the Mississippi.

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, J. S. Bach said:

They were active in Florida, also. A visit to St Augustine will show quite a bit of that heritage.

 

EDIT: And in Pensacola. The state capital (Tallahassee) was supposedly located by having a rider go east from Pensacola and a rider go west from St Augustine; where they met was approximately halfway between the two places so that was the capital's location.  I find that difficult to believe; if there were no real trails, how could they have met?

 

I had not realised the Spanish were at least, notionally active there as late as the early 1800s. The aspect of it being ceded to Britain in the 1760s, relinquished to Spain in the 1780s (which you might feel, the British had no right to do, although it's not generally understood today that the military defeat by the upstart colonists only really defined that the Thirteen Colonies were no longer subject to the Crown) and finally sold to the Americans - really points out how little influence any Europeans had there. 

Edited October 9, 2021 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

2 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

Seeing as we're into flags a couple of quiz questions for the Brits about Old Glory.

1) How many red stripes are there on Old Glory and how many stars and what do those numbers represent. 

2) Which US state has the Union Flag incorporated in its state flag.

3) Which US state held a plebiscite as to whether they joined the US or Canada.

4) Which American state was recognized as an independent state by Britain before it joined the US.

Without checking, I do know that the stripes represent the original Thirteen Colonies and the stars, the current States - so there were formerly 48 stars now 50. I also know that Newfoundland voted to be part of Canada in the 1940s, and that Alaska only became a state in the 1950s

Edited October 9, 2021 by rockershovel

[AndyID]

4 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

Without checking, I do know that the stripes represent the original Thirteen Colonies and the stars, the current States - so there were formerly 48 stars now 50

So far there have been 27 different versions. If Puerto Rico and Washington DC get statehood there will be more.

 

I have a US flag but I don't put it up much these days. Unfortunately it has been co-opted by certain political extremists and it has become a symbol of division rather than unity.

[Happy Hippo]

This ought to be labelled under the 'Don't Assume' file.

 

A long time ago, we had a short discussion about the Penrhos Branch of the Barry Railway and in particular the operation of the Dolomite works at Taffs Well.

 

Those who have nothing better to do can find it here:

 

 

The reason I have returned to this is my assumption, which turned out to be incorrect, was about the track layout.

 

I had assumed that the track diagram would have followed  normal railway practice of the time in having  a trailing crossover off the down (to Barry) line which connected with a single slip to form a crossover to the up line and create trailing access into the dolomite works.  There would also be a trap point protecting the exit from the works.  

 

The photos that were produced for the thread did show shunting, but the point work was obscured by a loco and wagons.

 

This afternoon I saw a picture of the an excursion travelling towards Barry and the entry into the Dolomite works is visible.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/51519430004/

 

Shock Horror!  not a trailing crossover incorporating a single slip, but a trailing crossover (not in view) and a facing point to access the works siding(s).  The facing point lock cover being clearly visible.

 

Although not an impossibility, this track arrangement is unusual.

 

Although the line was freight only, so theoretically the FPL would not be required, as the line saw excursion traffic at weekends and bank holidays, the point would either need to be fitted with an FPL or it would have needed to be clamped.  In order for this to happen a signalman would need to be present. Since the box was only opened as required in order to access the siding(s). Opening it at weekends and bank holidays just for excursion traffic was not going to please the accountants!

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, J. S. Bach said:

The Spanish also.

 

To say nothing of the various native American peoples.

 

3 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

4) Which American state was recognized as an independent state by Britain before it joined the US.

 

Texas, I believe. There was even talk of it annexing itself to the British Empire.

 

The motivations behind the Declaration of Independence are very muddied. There was concern that the British government was going to more vigorously restrain the colonialists' westward expansion and abolish slavery - the preservation of those freedoms was what some of the most prominent signatories were fighting for. But out of such murky motives arose one of the finest statements of human liberties in a civil society. It's just taken a while (we're not there yet) to establish that these are universal liberties, not just the liberties of propertied white males!

[simontaylor484]

Hawaii is the state with the Union Flag in the State flag

[Winslow Boy]

29 minutes ago, simontaylor484 said:

Hawaii is the state with the Union Flag in the State flag

 

I seem to recall that Hawaii was a soveign state with its own 'monarch' and that the USA annexed it but I might be wrong.

[pH]

4 minutes ago, Winslow Boy said:

 

I seem to recall that Hawaii was a soveign state with its own 'monarch' and that the USA annexed it but I might be wrong.

The Hawaiian monarchy was overthrown in 1893. There was a short lived Republic of Hawaii before annexation by the USA in 1898. Which means “Hawaii” is also an answer to PhilJW’s question:

 

4) Which American state was recognized as an independent state by Britain before it joined the US.

 

Hawaii was under British protection, if not actual control, for a time in 1794 and again in 1843:

 

http://www.aloha.net/~mahalo/british.html

 

The “annexation” of Hawaii by the USA is still a very contentious subject amongst some Hawaiians. We did a tourist bus tour of Honolulu and the surrounding area with a Hawaiian driver. He was very knowledgeable, and his whole commentary was cynical about the actions of the Americans around the annexation and the supposed benefits of it to Hawaii. But the delivery was so subtle that a lot of it seemed to go over the heads of the mainland Americans on the bus; not those from other countries, though.

[PhilJ W]

4 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

Seeing as we're into flags a couple of quiz questions for the Brits about Old Glory.

1) How many red stripes are there on Old Glory and how many stars and what do those numbers represent. 

2) Which US state has the Union Flag incorporated in its state flag.

3) Which US state held a plebiscite as to whether they joined the US or Canada.

4) Which American state was recognized as an independent state by Britain before it joined the US.

 

2 hours ago, rockershovel said:

Without checking, I do know that the stripes represent the original Thirteen Colonies and the stars, the current States - so there were formerly 48 stars now 50. I also know that Newfoundland voted to be part of Canada in the 1940s, and that Alaska only became a state in the 1950s

Correct about the flag but it wasn't Newfoundland. A clue is in the question, which US state had a plebiscite as to whether they would join the US or Canada.

52 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Texas, I believe. There was even talk of it annexing itself to the British Empire.

 

The motivations behind the Declaration of Independence are very muddied. There was concern that the British government was going to more vigorously restrain the colonialists' westward expansion and abolish slavery - the preservation of those freedoms was what some of the most prominent signatories were fighting for. But out of such murky motives arose one of the finest statements of human liberties in a civil society. It's just taken a while (we're not there yet) to establish that these are universal liberties, not just the liberties of propertied white males!

Correct as well, from 1842 to 1845.

39 minutes ago, simontaylor484 said:

Hawaii is the state with the Union Flag in the State flag

Correct.

Only question 3 to answer.

[Happy Hippo]

4 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

Only question 3 to answer.

That would be an ecumenical matter!

 

(Looks like I'm going to be Father Jack looking after the Folies!) 

[pH]

22 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

Only question 3 to answer.

Apparently, at various times Vermont, Maine and Minnesota have all discussed the possibility of joining Canada. But I can’t find any mention of it having been voted on.

[jamie92208]

I would guess at Washington State.  Just out of interest, when we visited American Samoa our taxi dri er talked at length about the possibility of goi g for statehood. The process of goi g from Territory to State is one of the few bits of legislation that predates the Ametican Constitution  IIRC. One of the qualifications is a population of more than 50,000, which is why Wyoming and Alaska were late entrants.  Acvording to our 8nformant there are good arguments  both for and against Statehood.

 

Jamie

[PhilJ W]

You guessed right Jamie, its Washington state. The border along the 49th parallel only extended to the Rockies. West of that the territory was disputed and was only settled by the Oregon treaty of 1846. 

[pH]

5 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

You guessed right Jamie, its Washington state. The border along the 49th parallel only extended to the Rockies. West of that the territory was disputed and was only settled by the Oregon treaty of 1846. 

When was that plebiscite? Washington state did not exist as a state until 1889.

[PhilJ W]

28 minutes ago, pH said:

When was that plebiscite? Washington state did not exist as a state until 1889.

I assume it was before 1846 when it was Washington territory. The Hudson Bay Company had a strong presence in the area and there was a lot of Canadians and Brits present. I was told this by an American schoolteacher who is herself a native of Oregon. I understand that the ownership some of the islands in Vancouver Sound wasn't settled until the 1890's.

[rockershovel]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

To say nothing of the various native American peoples.

 

 

Texas, I believe. There was even talk of it annexing itself to the British Empire.

 

The motivations behind the Declaration of Independence are very muddied. There was concern that the British government was going to more vigorously restrain the colonialists' westward expansion and abolish slavery - the preservation of those freedoms was what some of the most prominent signatories were fighting for. But out of such murky motives arose one of the finest statements of human liberties in a civil society. It's just taken a while (we're not there yet) to establish that these are universal liberties, not just the liberties of propertied white males!

Indeed. Britain had already begun the movement towards abolitionism which would characterised the nineteenth century. Although further expansion of slavery was curtailed in nineteenth-century America, the Civil War was not begun to abolish slavery and Lincoln quite specifically stated this - it was fought initially to preserve the Union. Britain also fought and defeated the French to retain control of Canada, and in that fraught period between the Seven Years War and the American Revolution, a connection between Royalist France and the increasingly fractious colonial parties was regarded as highly undesirable - America beyond the Appalachians was envisaged as an extension of Canadian style administration. 

[pH]

11 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

… the Civil War was not begun to abolish slavery and Lincoln quite specifically stated this - it was fought initially to preserve the Union.

Well, yes, but …

 

The initial aim of the war was not to preserve the union, but to re-form the union. Seven states had already seceded before the first shots were fired at Fort Sumter. (Pedantic, I know, but that is the timeline.) 

 

However, what had caused those states to secede from the union in the first place? The fear that restriction of expansion, possibly leading to abolition, of slavery would devastate the economy of the Southern states. So, not the moral aspects of slavery, but the financial aspects.

[AndyID]

I advocate caution. If there's one thing we are good at it's revising history    Some of the stuff taught in schools here is absolutely diabolical. Mind you, some of the stuff taught in UK schools is a bit dodgy too.

 

Which reminds me of a story, or two (Oh no! 'ere 'e goes again )  :

 

When teaching the events that led up to WW2 the head teacher of our History Department, one Jimmy Dinning, was fond of mentioning "the German ambassador in London" except that to our ears it sounded a lot more like

 

"the German bar-steward in London" 

(or something quite similar).

 

I had a math teacher affectionately known to the pupils as "Cooface", an unfortunate nickname but quite apt, although she was actually a very good teacher. He real name was Miss Maclean and of course our class wag didn't take long to point out that the miscellaneous math examples at the back of the book we were using should really be referred to as MissMacleaneous examples