The Night Mail

[Winslow Boy]

1 hour ago, Stubby47 said:

A technical, house construction-type question, if I may... 

 

What is the name of the strip of extended rendering that runs across a wall to force rain to drip? Often these can be seen on gable ends above windows.

 

For example:

 

Ta 

 

I might be wrong but I always thought it was called the drip line but I would like to have that confirmed.

[Winslow Boy]

1 hour ago, PhilJ W said:

Most can be found here.

 

A long and dis- honourable tradition then.

[iL Dottore]

1 hour ago, Happy Hippo said:

The home of the PPE graduate who is otherwise less unemployable than one with a degree in Media Studies.

I’ve always wondered about what use is a PPE degree beyond getting a toehold on the political gravy train.

 

I suspect that the PPE degree, like a Media Studies degree, is worthless unless you know someone who knows someone (or, more likely, daddy or mummy knows someone who knows someone).

Prof David Starkey (who started out as an impoverished Grammar School boy) greatly discomfited a panel of political and media-luvvie types on an episode of BBC Question Time, by pointing out that all, but all of them came from well off and well connected families with parents/uncles/aunts/etc. already very well established in the media and politics (the exception being himself and Justine Greening - both “poor kids who made good”)

 

You can find the episode on YouTube - worth a watch…

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, iL Dottore said:

I’ve always wondered about what use is a PPE degree beyond getting a toehold on the political gravy train.

 

I'm afraid I have to step up here. I was at Oxford in the era of Cameron, Johnson, et al., fortunately without every crossing paths with any of them, to my knowledge - their type was a very small proportion of undergraduates, I did hear tales of smashed crockery and wanton destruction at The Mitre but that's as far as my awareness went. I was a physicist from a West Midlands comprehensive; a knew a number of PPE-ists from similar backgrounds. The PPE course was the main route to studying philosophy and the only way of study economics at Oxford - but like most Oxford degree courses, it was mostly history really. An academic philosophy qualification, it could be argued, is about as much use as an academic physics qualification, but what I would argue is that the primary skill taught, in the humanities courses at least, was critical reasoning. My PPE-ist friends went on into a variety of training courses following their education, sadly too many into accountancy and law, but in that respect they were no different from people who had followed other courses. The proportion of Oxford undergraduates who go on to do anything interesting or in any way stand out from the crowd is tiny; unfortunately they're the ones you've heard of. 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Compound2632
sp.

[Northmoor]

46 minutes ago, iL Dottore said:

I’ve always wondered about what use is a PPE degree beyond getting a toehold on the political gravy train.

 

I suspect that the PPE degree, like a Media Studies degree, is worthless unless you know someone who knows someone (or, more likely, daddy or mummy knows someone who knows someone).

Prof David Starkey (who started out as an impoverished Grammar School boy) greatly discomfited a panel of political and media-luvvie types on an episode of BBC Question Time, by pointing out that all, but all of them came from well off and well connected families with parents/uncles/aunts/etc. already very well established in the media and politics (the exception being himself and Justine Greening - both “poor kids who made good”)

 

You can find the episode on YouTube - worth a watch…

All completely true (I think it also applies a great deal in the performing arts), although to be fair, they still had to get the qualification.

Hence why when people complain, "It's who you know, not what you know", I tend to respond, "It's who knows what you know".  Unless you're the waster offspring who gets a job in Mummy/Daddy's business regardless of lack of ability, you still have to know your stuff.

The problem, as Dr Starkey stated, is that too many people can't make the connections, the opportunities to meet the right people.  Which is what improving diversity and inclusion is actually all about.

[bbishop]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

I've always thought that PPE students are incorrectly attired at their graduation ceremonies.

 

Surely, an HV jacket and orange hard hat (and nowadays a Covid mask) would be more appropriate. 

 

John

No, not the Covid mask any more, especially in a medical setting.  

Oops, just realised he has a history degree: european history 1789 - 1815 and 1939 - 45?

Bill

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

The problem, as Dr Starkey stated, is that too many people can't make the connections, the opportunities to meet the right people.  Which is what improving diversity and inclusion is actually all about.

 

I can't agree with your first sentence, in so far as it endorses @iL Dottore's first sentence, but wholeheartedly agree with your last.

[rockershovel]

17 hours ago, AndyID said:

 

There was a bus that picked up power at the bus stops and used it to spin up a flywheel which powered it to the next stop. Sweden possibly?

 

Depending on the orientation of the flywheel the bus would either resist changes in direction or changes in attitude.

 

Edit: the Gyrobus. Switzerland.

 

 

Wasn't there an experimental tram of that sort?

[iL Dottore]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm afraid I have to step up here. I was at Oxford in the era of Cameron, Johnson, et al., fortunately without every crossing paths with any of them, to my knowledge - their type was a very small proportion of undergraduates, I did hear tales of smashed crockery and wanton destruction at The Mitre but that's as far as my awareness went. I was a physicist from a West Midlands comprehensive; a knew a number of PPE-ists from similar backgrounds. The PPE course was the main route to studying philosophy and the only way of study economics at Oxford - but like most Oxford degree courses, it was mostly history really. An academic philosophy qualification, it could be argued, is about as much use as an academic physics qualification, but what I would argue is that the primary skill taught, in the humanities courses at least, was critical reasoning. My PPE-ist friends went on into a variety of training courses following their education, sadly too many into accountancy and law, but in that respect they were no different from people who had followed other courses. The proportion of Oxford undergraduates who go on to do anything interesting or in any way stand out from the crowd is tiny; unfortunately they're the ones you've heard of. 

Thank you for this illuminating explanation.

 

What you describe is certainly very different to the public perception of the PPE - such is the damage done by politicians (on both sides of the political fence) to the reputation of this useful degree you have outlined.

 

I certainly agree with Northmoor's refinement of "knowing someone who knows someone"  to "It's who knows what you know" - which neatly returns to Prof Starkey's contention that having relatives (and friends) in the right areas does open doors, closed to those without the "right" familial connections (Starkey also refers to this process as creating media and political dynasties)

Edited November 12, 2021 by iL Dottore
spelling

[PupCam]

2 hours ago, TheQ said:

This just popped up from yesterday,

https://www.mylondon.news/lifestyle/travel/norfolk-village-happisburgh-disappear-sea-22134693.amp

 

Without wanting to appear to disbelieve the very serious problem climate change poses to us all I can't help thinking that in this particular report they've jumped into a first class compartment on the climate change gravy train.  The very first complete sentence claims ......

 

"Sometimes it’s hard to comprehend just how much climate change can affect our lives, especially when it threatens to make some of our tiny islands disappear."

 

As far as I'm aware the Norfolk coast line has been eroding for many centuries, indeed most likely from the very moment this particular configuration of land mass was formed in just the same way as removed material has been re-deposited further down the coast since way before man came along and cocked it all up with his infernal and exfernal combustion engines.   In essence it's got naff all to do with climate change and everything to do with the relentless comings and goings of the tide caused by that friendly lump of rock that likes to orbit Planet Earth.    The Moon's mission is aided and abetted by the combination of the idiosyncrasies of both its and the Earth's orbits.    The change in sea level associated with climate change will not help but it certainly is not the primary cause of the loss of such coastline.     Clearly Greta was far too late in the day to save Dunwich .......

 

Personally I feel the persistent and incorrect or, at the very least, "stretched" attribution of absolutely everything to climate change actually belittles the serious and inescapable truth of the magnitude of the problem but then that seems to be a fundamental flaw with the media in general which seems to bring us nicely round in a loop to the luvvies discussed earlier.

 

Alan

[rockershovel]

 

The PPE / SpAd / favoured son route to Westminster and/or public institutions  developed in the pre-Blair era. Labour sought to exclude the entryism of the Militant era, and the hard-line Old Labour Trades Union placemen. Look at the Labour "class of 97" and the number of new faces it contained (sometimes known as "Blairs babes"). 

 

The Conservatives, at that time very pro-Europe, sought to exclude the possibility of another Mrs Thatcher. They then underwent a catastrophic electoral defeat and a long period of disarray, until David Cameron became leader in 2005. Cameron reformed the Conservatives in an overtly Blairite mould. 

 

So, by the late 2000s both parties had instituted systems by which candidates were closely controlled by Central Office, to the exclusion of the wishes of constituency parties or branches. 

 

The LibDems already had a system of that sort.

Edited November 12, 2021 by rockershovel

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

The PPE / SpAd / favoured son route to Westminster and/or public institutions 

 

Which one could see as the professionalisation of politics. If one is to disapprove of that, one is forced to approve of MPs having other careers which they would have to continue pursuing, given the uncertainty of re-election, or, of course, to be independently wealthy. Before 1911, MPs were unpaid (though much earlier their constituencies had met their expenses); history here.

[Oldddudders]

Unfortunately, earning a high five-figure sum is beyond the realms of likelihood for the vast majority of people. Accordingly, those people expect something decent for that sort of salary. Irrespective of the party, the present debate about standards, and the revelations it is making public, simply adds to cynicism about the probity of the democratic process. That benefits nobody. 

[jamie92208]

48 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Which one could see as the professionalisation of politics. If one is to disapprove of that, one is forced to approve of MPs having other careers which they would have to continue pursuing, given the uncertainty of re-election, or, of course, to be independently wealthy. Before 1911, MPs were unpaid (though much earlier their constituencies had met their expenses); history here.

That broadly confirms me memory of what our very good history teacher told us in 1968 whilst studying for O levels.  He was a character with a very dry sense of humour but gave me a love of history.

 

Jamie

[Happy Hippo]

Having poked the ants nest of degrees, it has been most interesting to see other's views on both that and the route of some into politics.

 

Although we have to be careful not to invoke the usual spats about various political parties that lead to quite a bit of acrimony on less disciplined threads so far we have remained level headed and factual.

 

My comment about the PPE and Media Studies was a bit of a broad brush swipe at the system and I'll wholeheartedly agree that the degree courses are there to stimulate the brain and promote the ability to make balanced analysis and decision. Critical thinking comes to mind.

 

I'll drift back and just remark about the current UK PM.  Those who have read what he what written in the past as a newspaper columnist will appreciate he writes in a clear and concise way.  This is very true, not just of him, but of many graduates.  Certainly, he would do well as a military officer attached to a General's staff where the pen is certainly mightier than the sword.

 

From a military perspective, that sort of person can go far, because military promotion for officers, certainly in the Army, is based on how well you can write, and show that you are capable of balanced planning and the production of clear unambiguous instructions and orders.  Unfortunately once it comes into the battlefield, where two things will happen:

 

1.  The paper plan and orders suddenly have to be applied in a simple and practical manner.

 

2.  The paper plan and orders go out through the window after the first shot is fired.  It then very much becomes a matter of Improvise, Adapt and Overcome.

 

So the academically brilliant staff officer can sometimes turn out to be incapable of practical application, and becomes rather full of bluster.  Do not tell me where we have seen that before!

 

Degrees are also tilted by the universities to cater for a certain post graduate employment.  My daughter went to Durham and studied Archaeology. This was an academic course designed for those to either pursue an academic career in Archaeology or for progression into the museum system.  Had she wanted to become a field archaeologist and go digging up ancient sites in far off exotic places, then she would have been better going to Exeter, where the course was inclined in that direction.

 

As it was, she went off and became a teacher.

 

There are courses that get changed at short notice, and my son who wanted to study Forestry and Arboriculture was promised a very practical course, but which turned out to be anything but.  So he went and got a job working for a tree surgery company where he gained all his qualifications through training and external courses.

 

 Now he found that the very anti-social hours and low pay offered encouraged him to retrain on the engineering side, and he then went to work for the MoD in a job that was subsequently  subject to contractorization. 

 

Ironically, the contractor wanted to change the terms of employment for all the ex MoD staff, so gave them the option to reapply for their current jobs under new working terms and conditions or be made redundant.   My son opted for the redundancy and was asked if he would go back to working at the same tree surgery business he left to train as an engineer.  (He went back under much better T&Cs and with a significant pay rise).

 

The contractor?  Well they are now struggling to fill the glut of vacancies created as most of the ex MoD employees have left to work 'over the road' at another engineering company specialising in AFV build and refurbishment.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Happy Hippo

[rockershovel]

49 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Which one could see as the professionalisation of politics. If one is to disapprove of that, one is forced to approve of MPs having other careers which they would have to continue pursuing, given the uncertainty of re-election, or, of course, to be independently wealthy. Before 1911, MPs were unpaid (though much earlier their constituencies had met their expenses); history here.

Which is all true; but I would refer you to Anthony Wedgwood Benn's "five questions". 

- what power do you have? 

- where did you get it? 

- in whose interests do you exercise it? 

- to whom are you accountable?

- how can we get rid of you?

 

It seems to me that if we could address the above questions satisfactorily, the question of professional politicians would be of little import. 

[rockershovel]

I'm intrigued, if not necessarily convinced by the motion of the present PM as a military staff officer. Leaving aside his somewhat un-military demeanour and grooming, he often strikes me as the embodiment of what my late father used to refer to as "poor staff work", by which he meant lack of attention to necessary detail to the extent that the execution and pursuit of the goal is compromised. 

 

 

[iL Dottore]

18 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

Which is all true; but I would refer you to Anthony Wedgwood Benn's "five questions". 

- what power do you have? 

- where did you get it? 

- in whose interests do you exercise it? 

- to whom are you accountable?

- how can we get rid of you?

 

It seems to me that if we could address the above questions satisfactorily, the question of professional politicians would be of little import. 

I have to say that I vehemently disagreed with much of what Mr Benn advocated,  but this is definitely "on the money" and is applicable to every human endeavour - from the Model Railway Club to Local Government to National Government.

[rockershovel]

1 minute ago, iL Dottore said:

I have to say that I vehemently disagreed with much of what Mr Benn advocated,  ....

So did I; but I always found his observations to be well worth noting. Try reading the wider context of those remarks (they come from his speeches on the subject of the EU, in the particular context of the period from accession to Maastricht) in the knowledge of subsequent events. 

[DenysW]

There are those who believe what they want to believe, irrespective of the truth, and current politics of most stripes has a lot of them. It's not just Trump.

 

This isn't new: I was amused to find in some ca 1870 ICE minutes (by which time we now think they should have leant and moved on) Crampton saying a low centre of gravity was essential for good locomotive design, and Stirling saying single-driven-axis was the best conceivable design for express locomotives.

[Happy Hippo]

15 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

I'm intrigued, if not necessarily convinced by the motion of the present PM as a military staff officer. Leaving aside his somewhat un-military demeanour and grooming, he often strikes me as the embodiment of what my late father used to refer to as "poor staff work", by which he meant lack of attention to necessary detail to the extent that the execution and pursuit of the goal is compromised. 

 

 

Re-watch Blackadder the Forth for observing the excellence of staff officers.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

simply adds to cynicism about the probity of the democratic process. That benefits nobody. 

 

Except those who want to subvert the democratic process for their own ends - usually, to line their own and their friends' pockets, occasionally to further their imperial ambitions. I don't need to mention anyone in particular in the first category but in the second one can include Catherine the Great (Re. Poland), Joseph Stalin (re. Eastern Europe generally), etc...

[TheQ]

2 hours ago, PupCam said:

 

Without wanting to appear to disbelieve the very serious problem climate change poses to us all I can't help thinking that in this particular report they've jumped into a first class compartment on the climate change gravy train.  The very first complete sentence claims ......

 

"Sometimes it’s hard to comprehend just how much climate change can affect our lives, especially when it threatens to make some of our tiny islands disappear."

 

As far as I'm aware the Norfolk coast line has been eroding for many centuries, indeed most likely from the very moment this particular configuration of land mass was formed in just the same way as removed material has been re-deposited further down the coast since way before man came along and cocked it all up with his infernal and exfernal combustion engines.   In essence it's got naff all to do with climate change and everything to do with the relentless comings and goings of the tide caused by that friendly lump of rock that likes to orbit Planet Earth.    The Moon's mission is aided and abetted by the combination of the idiosyncrasies of both its and the Earth's orbits.    The change in sea level associated with climate change will not help but it certainly is not the primary cause of the loss of such coastline.     Clearly Greta was far too late in the day to save Dunwich .......

 

Personally I feel the persistent and incorrect or, at the very least, "stretched" attribution of absolutely everything to climate change actually belittles the serious and inescapable truth of the magnitude of the problem but then that seems to be a fundamental flaw with the media in general which seems to bring us nicely round in a loop to the luvvies discussed earlier.

 

Alan

Entirely correct, the village of Eccles just down the coast from there, petitioned Henry VIII to reduce their taxes as they were being taxed on the Doomsday books , 2000 acres and they only had 200 left..

Since his time the coast has moved in another 200 yards..

[rockershovel]

41 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

Re-watch Blackadder the Forth for observing the excellence of staff officers.

Were I seeking to form a balanced judgement on the excellence or otherwise of the military mind, I wouldn't start by asking Ben Elton, not least because he has zero experience of the subject to draw upon...

[Dave Hunt]

10 minutes ago, TheQ said:

Entirely correct, the village of Eccles just down the coast from there, petitioned Henry VIII to reduce their taxes as they were being taxed on the Doomsday books , 2000 acres and they only had 200 left..

Since his time the coast has moved in another 200 yards..

 

And that's left precious little room for growing Eccles cakes, which is possibly why Jamie finds it difficult to get them in France.

 

Dave (just to lighten the conversation a bit, you understand).