Cattle transported in ordinary vans?

[Tim Lewis]

Here's something that's been puzzling me....

 

A few months ago, this consignment note was for sale on e-bay.  I didn't buy it but a friend of mine sent me a picture of it as he knew I was interested in Coldstream.

As you can see, it details a consignment of 3 cattle wagons to be sent from Coldstream to Bradford on 11 March 1949.  The first (196357) is an LNER Diagram 122 and the third (302589) is probably an LMS diagram 1840 (possibly 1661).  It is the middle one that is of interest.  My first reaction was "Oh, excellent, that proves the use of ex-NER cattle wagons at Coldstream in my period of interest", but then I thought "wait a minute, the NER didn't have any 'Large' cattle wagons" (they were all medium).  A bit of trawling through the relevant volume of Tatlow shows that the wagon listed (106836) was actually a Diagram G2 ordinary covered van.  Now, I thought it was against the rules to transport cattle in anything other than a cattle wagon, so what's going on?

 

I would be very interested to hear people's thoughts on this.

 

Cheers for now.

 

[The Stationmaster]

Poor writing on somebody's part?  Yes, it happened especially if things were written in a hurry.

[caradoc]

IIRC cattle wagons had movable internal barriers so that no matter how many beasts were actually in the vehicle, they would be forced together to avoid any falling and being injured ?

 

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, caradoc said:

IIRC cattle wagons had movable internal barriers so that no matter how many beasts were actually in the vehicle, they would be forced together to avoid any falling and being injured ?

 

 

I understood the moveable partition to be purely a tariff matter - the consigner would request and pay for a small (13'6"), medium (15'6"), or large (18'0") cattle wagon (possibly short, medium, or long), the key dimension being the internal length available for the livestock. In the 19th century, cattle wagons were built to these various lengths, so the right type had to be supplied. Eventually some clever person (at Swindon, possibly) realised that it would be more efficient to have just one size of wagon, with the moveable partition to adjust the size. 

 

I'm with @The Stationmaster in voting for clerical error. Are there any ex-LNER large cattle wagons with numbers differing from 106836 by just one digit? Or two digits transposed?

[The Johnster]

AFAIK cattle (and sheep and pigs) went in cattle wagons which had drainage in the floors to deal with the effluent, though I once came across a rake of 3 freshly painted GUVs at Shrewsbury in 1969 with live pigs, something worth staying upwind of.  There were rule about cattle and what they could ride in, along with rest, feeding, mucking out, and vets.  Horses and prize cattle went in horseboxes and beetles with accommodation and toilet for the grooms or stockmen; I am not sure how the sort of working horses that did not have grooms were transported by rail, if at all, but I would imagine it would be in a cattle wagon, as would goats.  Dogs went in passenger guards' vans, chained to the wall or cage, and it was common in the 70s to have greyhounds sent in this way.  I always found these to be very placid and friendly creatures, especially if you re-assured them with a custard cream.  Day old chicks in cardboard cartons were common as well, popular with small children, chicks going cheep...  

 

I had a parrot in a cage once in a passenger brake van, with a cloth over it to make it sleep, and live snakes on another occasion; small dogs and cats in carriers occasionally as well.  I also had a coffin, whose occupant did not seem to wish to engage in conversation, but was on his way to London Gatwick for a flight to Greece for burial.  

 

Large salmons in sacks packed with ice were a feature of Hereford, heading for London for the posh restaurants and worth a bit, but these were not livestock.  Sometimes they were bigger than me!  My all-time favourite was a little girl whose mother had told her that her ant farm had to go in the van, and I had to promise to take best care of it; she was happy when I sat it on my desk!  A close second was an elderly Chinese lady from the New Territories on her way to live with her family in Treforest, who I accompanied from Cardiff on a 116.  She could not speak English and had a large luggage label type card tied around her neck that someone had written out for her; the entire itinerary from her village into Hong Kong, out to Kai Tak, flight to Heathrow, bus connection to Reading, 'will be met by family at Treforest' (there is a sizeable Chinese community here).  She was delightful, grinning toothlessly and happily at everyone and smoking a clay pipe.  I was a pipe smoker myself in those days, and gave her a fill of 3 Nuns, as well as some of my chocolate.  No. 1 son (I presumed) tipped me a tenner at Treforest, and a tenner was still worth about £7 in those days, which was probably unfair on all the other transport functionaries who had no doubt helped her nearly half way around the world, but I was there and they weren't...

 

We've gone OT from cattle to livestock and stuff that might raise eyebrows in passenger brake vans (there was this girl coming back from Bristol one night..), so apologies for the ranting memories of an old, old, codger...

[Harry Welch]

On 03/07/2020 at 20:21, Compound2632 said:

 

I understood the moveable partition to be purely a tariff matter - the consigner would request and pay for a small (13'6"), medium (15'6"), or large (18'0") cattle wagon (possibly short, medium, or long), the key dimension being the internal length available for the livestock. In the 19th century, cattle wagons were built to these various lengths, so the right type had to be supplied. Eventually some clever person (at Swindon, possibly) realised that it would be more efficient to have just one size of wagon, with the moveable partition to adjust the size. 

 

I'm with @The Stationmaster in voting for clerical error. Are there any ex-LNER large cattle wagons with numbers differing from 106836 by just one digit? Or two digits transposed?

I would have thought that the size of the partitioned portion of the wagon needed was dependant on how tightly the animals could be packed in, as Cardoc suggests up thread. Having spoken to an old railwayman many years ago who had some dealings with cattle traffic pre war, if the cows went down on the floor they would be trampled by the others hence the need to keep them standing and, just as importantly not moving about on a moving train. There were a couple of 'drovers' who travelled with the train who inspected the wagons for just such occurrences' at water stops or loco changes. Apparently they used long pointed sticks to prod the cows that had got down on the floor!

If the livestock was the responsibility of the railway co.'s (which I assume it was and not 'owners risk') then it was in their interest to pack them in. Charging by the number of beasts alone makes no sense. I assume therefore that the incentive to farmers was to charge for the space taken up, and farmers being how they were/are would pay for as little space as possible.

[IWCR]

I have seen an instruction re carrying cattle in an ordinary van with sliding doors. (on a minor railway)

This states a brick is to be placed in the door opening to provide ventilation and the door tied shut against it.

 

Pete