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To Collect or To Run Hornby Models? How Many Stay in Boxes?


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Just now, JSpencer said:

 

For many years, it was the only RTR EMU out there along with a generic Triang thing. Now we have lots of high end super detail EMUs to choose from. I still have the odd dublo and wrenn item floating around but I don't run them anymore. Indeed all my 80s and most of my 90s items don't get a run anymore. They just look so basic next to modern stuff.

I don't think it sold particularly well, so enhancing it's rarity.

IIRC The HD E3000 was also a poor seller as compared to the Triang version with the same (but modified) body. It was quite a bit more expensive.

The chassis was none too clever either with drive only on one axle with traction tyres.

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11 hours ago, PJT said:

 

Good point, especially with models that have become progressively more detailed and intricate in their mechanisms.  Additionally, I often look at 10-20 year old models categorised as 'new' on eBay ('new old stock', actually) and laugh, knowing that a few hours of complete chassis strip-down will probably be required before you can run them because the gears (sometimes) and bearings (often) are siezed with solidified lubricant. 

 

I agree that 10-20 yr-old purchases are commonly tight or semi-seized up, and that lightly used versions of the same thing are often better, especially if photographed well from all sides.  but to me the most annoying is the model advertised as 'never run' or some euphemism implying 'as new' when upon purchase it turns out not to run at all, and in a couple of cases close inspection revealed it was not the model in the ad. 

 

I tried to resolve these cases by contacting the seller, and they deny it and attack me (best form of defence?) for trying to get my money back, which they will do only after receiving the model back.... from New Zealand. I counter with offering to return the faulty item after receiving the cost of postage and refund.

 

So I escalate politely to a dispute, with photos, i both cases Ebay deciding in my favour.  Both these sellers are large and have 100% or very close to 100% good feedback, even though I did sent bad feedback...  perhaps the sale is recorded as 'not completed' or something.   Both continue to trade as trusted sellers. Presumably their error was accidental.

 

One of the sellers has black listed me and the dispute was 6 years ago!  No great loss, if they have something I want buy I have a friend buy it.... 

 

Buying on line has risks but I still enjoy it, and most sellers in my experience are genuine and honest. I avoid ads with very poor photos.

 

For what its worth my two latest s/h purchases are a wartime black LMS Duchess LMS 6241 'bathtub' and a BR Blue 35005 rebuilt Merchant Navy  which I often used to disregard because the prototype only wore blue c2000... same year R2171 was produced by Hornby , and of course good ones used to be cheap, but no longer...    Rarity!  Soon I shall be rich!! :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, robmcg said:


I

 

For what its worth my two latest s/h purchases are a wartime black LMS Duchess LMS 6241 'bathtub' and a BR Blue 35005 rebuilt Merchant Navy  which I often used to disregard because the prototype only wore blue c2000... same year R2171 was produced by Hornby , and of course good ones used to be cheap, but no longer...    Rarity!  Soon I shall be rich!! :)

 


make sure your front bogie isnt corroding on 35005.. ive had two of these models, the front bogie crumbled on both to Mazak.

The giveaway sign is the loco running, but the leading ponies not turning freely.

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13 hours ago, Sarahagain said:

Now I've found the Summer 2020 Bachmann Times, I can say that it follows on from the last wagon...

 

It's a Gloucester 10 Ton 7 plank wagon in grey...

 

Due in late summer, being delayed by Covid-19...

 

IMG_20200707_112350.jpg.9985fa493a73558bc913327a82f22f2d.jpg

 

 

 

Next year it'll be the 12 Ton.

 

They published a photo of them about a year ago. ISTR with a photo of the three real ones.

 

 

 

Jason

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I buy models to use on my layout, and none is in mint condition as all have been altered in some way, if only a light weathering wash to tone them down a bit.  This destroys the resale value but this is of no consequence to me as I will never sell them on anyway.  eBay is far too much effort for what would be a poor return; I’d rather give them to good homes if I don’t want them any more.
 

But that’s only my way of doing things, and I have no wish to denigrate anyone whose enjoyment comes from the ownership of models in pristine condition that have never left the box.  But I have little time for those Ferengi who sell at silly prices on ‘Bay, as their greed drives up overall prices and denies the use (or ownership in a collection for that matter) of the model to those who cannot or are too sensible to pay reasonable market asking prices.  The HD locos mentioned, Southern liveried N2 and E3000 are the sort of thing I mean.

 

I keep the boxes, and the wisdom of this was validated 3 years ago when my landlord decided on a major refurbishment of my flat and everything had to be packed away for a few weeks.  In an ideal world all the stock would live permanently on the layout, and some does, but the bulk lives on shelving above the fiddle yard. Of course I do not have far far more than what is needed to run the timetable, and am not constantly acquiring more, and have no intention for example to buy a Bachmann 94xx when it comes out in November; I am far to sensible for that!

 

Oh, hang on, wait a minute...
 

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I tend to keep them in boxes, purely because with today's level of detail, I can't think of a better way to store them securely. It's a bit of a pain in the backside, given how much more space the packaging takes up than the loco alone. I don't get to run them as much as I'd like, because my layouts are limited to micros at present.

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It always fascinated me that - purely for collectors' value purposes - a Kitmaster kit was worth more if it was still sealed in the original cellophane. It struck me as absurd. If you haven't opened the kit, you don't know if it's complete or even if the box contains kit parts and not just something else that rattles. I recall my Mum once bought a box of Cadbury's chocolates only to find that inside, was a block of wood. It was a box intended for a window display, which had been sold by mistake. So, by the same token, a Hornby loco should have been taken out of its box and run - at least occasionally - otherwise it could simply deteriorate through lack of use. (CJL)

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16 hours ago, robmcg said:

 

I tried to resolve these cases by contacting the seller, and they deny it and attack me (best form of defence?) for trying to get my money back, which they will do only after receiving the model back.... from New Zealand. I counter with offering to return the faulty item after receiving the cost of postage and refund.

 

 

 

Not being funny, but what do you expect? I would never refund an item on ebay until I get the item back, that is just normal business. Ebay puts all the tools to the advantage of the buyer, if I were to refund something and not then get it back, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Would you expect a shop to refund before you returned goods?


Roy 

 

 

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I am a younger member of the last generation that can remember the working steam railway back in the 1960s.  I myself don't 'collect' models but I know many of my age range and older do, making-up a large proportion of the 'collector' market.  Sometimes for the pure pleasure of (non-running) ownership, but sometimes seriously believing they have made an investment for their own or their family's futures.

 

What happens when we all start dying-off in significant numbers?  Long may the day be postponed, but there will be an ever-increasing trend in the next decade or so when all those carefully-preserved boxes start to reappear from their cupboards and lofts and start to flood the market (always assuming, of course, those who inherit even realise that what they've inherited is meant to have a value and know how to set about cashing-in ...).  And not only may supply start to exceed demand and prices consequently fall, but the number of prospective buyers will keep falling too, as those of us with sufficient interest  all eventually succumb to the guy with the big sickle on a stick.

 

Of course, there will always be some level of demand - but I really don't see it making anybody's fortune in ten years' time or more.  Take 'em out of the boxes and have a play, while you can still get some satisfaction from it, is my suggestion!

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Some of the rolling stock that I have has never, or hardly, come out of the box. But that's not by design. I buy it to play with, but circumstances have restricted that of late.

 

The plan is that it will all get used in the longer-term, I just buy stuff that fits my designs as it becomes available.

 

I use the boxes for storage until a build a better solution. For me, adding the additional detailing parts, the boxes aren't really ideal.

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1 hour ago, Willie Whizz said:

I am a younger member of the last generation that can remember the working steam railway back in the 1960s.  I myself don't 'collect' models but I know many of my age range and older do, making-up a large proportion of the 'collector' market.  Sometimes for the pure pleasure of (non-running) ownership, but sometimes seriously believing they have made an investment for their own or their family's futures.

 

What happens when we all start dying-off in significant numbers?  Long may the day be postponed, but there will be an ever-increasing trend in the next decade or so when all those carefully-preserved boxes start to reappear from their cupboards and lofts and start to flood the market (always assuming, of course, those who inherit even realise that what they've inherited is meant to have a value and know how to set about cashing-in ...).  And not only may supply start to exceed demand and prices consequently fall, but the number of prospective buyers will keep falling too, as those of us with sufficient interest  all eventually succumb to the guy with the big sickle on a stick.

 

Of course, there will always be some level of demand - but I really don't see it making anybody's fortune in ten years' time or more.  Take 'em out of the boxes and have a play, while you can still get some satisfaction from it, is my suggestion!

 

Good points, and think most here will agree with you. 

 

I think however there will always be a market for well-preserved examples of some of the models which have in many cases been stored away,

 

I doubt there will be a general experience of profit from sales, in fact very, very few will 'make money' in inflation adjusted terms, and it takes energy and some skill to create a nice ad on an auction site.  I presume some people already buy job lots for low prices as a result of winding up of estates and businesses, and sell either to current retailers or on such a Ebay. Good on them. It can be hard work, box-opening, assessing, testing, re-boxing, photos, ad-writing, all without damaging the product and sending it to a buyer undamaged.

 

I nevertheless experience pleasure from owning a very fine model which is in good order, depending on my whim of the week. Oddly, I find the whole process of buying via an auction site or shop rather fun, especially if the web-seller has a pleasant and seamless 'page' and the purchase trouble-free. Lately as some may have seen I have enjoyed 20-year-old Hornby Merchant Navy models, and would rather pay £120 to a seller with integrity and reputation than some person with a couple of poor phone-pics trying to make a quick quid at £80, bit broken perhaps...

 

Hornby Dublo and Wrenn have had some enthusiastic collectors, I see no reason why rare mint Hornby models shouldn't retain some value, just try to obtain a mint Hornby Clan these days!

 

On top of everything else, these current generation Hornby models are brilliant examples of low-volume manufacture and production,  TRULY brilliant.  Just try to make, assemble and paint something like a Britannia yourself!  

 

Then there is the 'collector urge', as in stamp or coin collecting. I think I own most of the post 2000 Hornby Merchant Navy models produced, and two of some, one weathered, one pristine.    I don't know how widespread this is but suspect it's common.

 

Cheers

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11 hours ago, dibber25 said:

It always fascinated me that - purely for collectors' value purposes - a Kitmaster kit was worth more if it was still sealed in the original cellophane. It struck me as absurd. If you haven't opened the kit, you don't know if it's complete or even if the box contains kit parts and not just something else that rattles. I recall my Mum once bought a box of Cadbury's chocolates only to find that inside, was a block of wood. It was a box intended for a window display, which had been sold by mistake. So, by the same token, a Hornby loco should have been taken out of its box and run - at least occasionally - otherwise it could simply deteriorate through lack of use. (CJL)

 

Schrödinger's Kit.

 

:superstition:     

 

Someone had to say it.  :prankster:

 

 

 

Jason

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As I am between layouts,  any items I have have had at the most a gentle test run to confirm operation.  I do not purchase to collect but as one previous poster stated,  to "future proof" myself.  How many times have we kicked ourselves for not buying a specific model only to have a manufacturer no longer reissue that model?  How many times has a retailer offered a firesale loco only to later increase the price to full retail when stock levels drop?  Many opportunities were missed because of a reluctance to make an immediate purchase thinking that I would buy it later.

 

While not in the potential "collecting" category,  a case in point is the recent Hattons bundle pack on the Golden Valley Hobbies "ICI" Janus pack with matching open wagons.  I purchased two packs as it was more cost effective to get additional wagons and thinking once they arrive then I may consider additional packs.  Well,  the items arrived and well exceeded expectations.  Alas, the "more than 10 instock" quickly evaporated and the sale pack vanished from stock.  A missed opportunity for more.

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12 hours ago, dibber25 said:

It always fascinated me that - purely for collectors' value purposes - a Kitmaster kit was worth more if it was still sealed in the original cellophane. It struck me as absurd. If you haven't opened the kit, you don't know if it's complete or even if the box contains kit parts and not just something else that rattles. I recall my Mum once bought a box of Cadbury's chocolates only to find that inside, was a block of wood. It was a box intended for a window display, which had been sold by mistake. So, by the same token, a Hornby loco should have been taken out of its box and run - at least occasionally - otherwise it could simply deteriorate through lack of use. (CJL)

Good point, Chris, but there is a sort of point to the idea of having a sealed unopened kit, certainly if you are buying one on 'Bay; it enables a reasonable assumption to be made that all the bits are still attached to the sprues and that nobody has attempted to build it and made a mess of it.  It is of course quite common as well, as there are a lot of kits that never get built as we have seen.  I suppose I am unusual in that I have no backlog of kits, and buy them one at a time, and don't buy another one until I've finished the one in hand.

 

This discipline may or may not be 'informed' by once having to build 40 Airfix 16t minerals for a club layout.  I did this by production lining the process, completing each instruction stage on all 40 at a session because I thought that it would be quicker that way.  Maybe it was, but it didn't feel like it; never again!  Modelling is supposed to be fun, and the lesson learned was to be careful what you volunteer to do after a couple of beers...

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Depends on what the price was though. Look at the prices some of the Airfix kits go for in the plastic bags for example. I've seen some go for three figures.

 

It's not the kit they want, it's the whole package. Prime example here, if it was in better condition you could double the price. Bit of wear on the header though.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/153866039908?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=153866039908&targetid=909953938039&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9046551&poi=&campaignid=10199630344&mkgroupid=103308032113&rlsatarget=pla-909953938039&abcId=1145985&merchantid=7390174&gclid=EAIaIQobChMImKTBxv2-6gIVSYBQBh2tiQKVEAQYBSABEgKR9vD_BwE

 

 

How much for a new Dapol one? About £8.

 

 

 

Jason

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13 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

Not being funny, but what do you expect? I would never refund an item on ebay until I get the item back, that is just normal business. Ebay puts all the tools to the advantage of the buyer, if I were to refund something and not then get it back, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Would you expect a shop to refund before you returned goods?


Roy 

 

 

 

Yes, sorry, I agree, I wouldn't expect a shop to refund without return of goods,  and I didn't explain myself well.  When I receive any item new or s/h from the UK and find it faulty beyond my ability to repair I inform the seller and if they are happy to refund my purchase price plus fair postage I send it back and have always received my refund plus postage. A lot of time wasted by both seller and buyer.

 

But in one case the item was damaged and faulty by very poor negligent packaging, that is, an unboxed  super-detail Hornby engine loose in a large cardboard box with one small sheet of bubble wrap,  and was in bits, the  very large prominent seller tried to blame the courier, saying it wasn't their fault. I was prepared to return it with considerable expense in the hope of a refund but they wouldn't agree that their packaging was at fault, in spite of my photos of the box, their labels etc., and the damaged engine, I asked Ebay for an opinion, being in NZ, and I forget the details now, six years on, but got a refund, and Ebay then said I need not return the damaged engine,  which was clearly nearly worthless after postage.

 

In a second case with a dead engine sold as 'excellent condition' the seller denied that it was his fault and when I pointed out that the model received was not the one in his photos he simply denied it and called into question my honesty.  I remained polite, but he did not. I started a dispute and Ebay somehow got him to refund the purchase price, and again the engine was almost valuless after postage and they said I did not need to return it.

 

I have had hundreds of perfectly good transactions, even when new models are seriously faulty, which isn't very often,  I rarely return them but try to fix them, the postage from NZ is quite expensive, customs declarations and packaging is problematic for me, (wheelchair etc, access to Post Office) , and the whole thing is an expensive waste of time for everyone.

 

.  

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17 hours ago, Willie Whizz said:

...I know many of my age range and older do, making-up a large proportion of the 'collector' market.  Sometimes for the pure pleasure of (non-running) ownership, but sometimes seriously believing they have made an investment for their own or their family's futures.

 

What happens when we all start dying-off in significant numbers?  Long may the day be postponed, but there will be an ever-increasing trend in the next decade or so when all those carefully-preserved boxes start to reappear from their cupboards and lofts and start to flood the market (always assuming, of course, those who inherit even realise that what they've inherited is meant to have a value and know how to set about cashing-in ...).  And not only may supply start to exceed demand and prices consequently fall, but the number of prospective buyers will keep falling too, as those of us with sufficient interest  all eventually succumb to the guy with the big sickle on a stick.

Oh, I am banking on this, as my penchant for operation means models wear out. My family's longevity is such that I have a decent hope of being among the last of the 'saw the final decade of BR steam' cohort standing/walking-framing/wheelchairing; and thus present to hoover up the best of this good stuff, which will hopefully become plentifully available at low, low prices.

 

Actually already happening. I have waited years for the H-D 8F to come down to a realistic price, and landed an excellent one earlier this year for £40. Investments? I don't think so...

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10 hours ago, Lantavian said:

Does the National Railway Museum have a national model railway collection? Perhaps it should

 

 

Or maybe one of the royals? After all, the Queen has a stamp collection (albeit one owned by the Crown rather than her personally) so why shouldn't one or more of her children have had a trainset for Christmas or birthday in the 1950s/60s and expanded it with presents from Aunty Margaret and Granny Liz each year? 

 

Maybe it has been handed down to William and Kate, for their youngsters. 

 

Although, with the royals' ready access to the real thing - maybe models were not necessary?

 

EDITED: to add that Charles does seem to have shown an interest....

 

https://tinyurl.com/y87gczq9

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10 hours ago, Lantavian said:

Does the National Railway Museum have a national model railway collection? Perhaps it should

 

Nice idea, but I feel the trouble is the NRM's more set up for, and more used to dealing with and handling, stuff that's made from big nuts and bolts rather than delicate models.  My impression was, when they became custodians of Heckmondwike many years ago, they really didn't know what to do with it or how to take care of it.  I don't think it was their fault at all; they just weren't the right custodians for something that would always deteriorate (and was already starting to deteriorate when they got it) without the right kind of care being lavished on it constantly - as we all know with our own railways.  Looking after a large collection of delicate models (as opposed to the comparatively few models they do actually have on display)  isn't quite as extreme a case as Heckmondwike, but I think the principle's much the same.

 

I think AIMREC at Ashford (see other bits of RMweb) might be a better suggestion for a National Model Railway Collection, but only in the very long term - they've got their hands full trying to sort out permanent premises in which to set up their museum of model railway excellence and I'd imagine that'll take all their energies for many years to come.

 

Pete T.

 

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It is a long time ago that I have been to the NRM, but the railway museums in the Netherlands, Germany and France had better not tried to include model railway items. While the real trains and other stuff are presented very well, the model railway stuff is in a sorry state. 

 

Regards

Fred

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On 08/07/2020 at 11:31, adb968008 said:


make sure your front bogie isnt corroding on 35005.. ive had two of these models, the front bogie crumbled on both to Mazak.

The giveaway sign is the loco running, but the leading ponies not turning freely.

 

Thank you adb968008, I must be very lucky, I have not experienced any mazak rot in hundreds of engines bought and sold, but that said, I only have a very small test track and slightly larger diorama. 

 

Not only that but I get the feeling that Merchant Navy front bogies are quite plentiful so finding a good one may not be too hard? I just discovered a complete MN chassis in my spares department, I had forgotten about it, so having bought a 35028 R2169 body the other day from Peters Spares for 30 quid feel quite chuffed.  The chassis is pre-plug post-sprung rear axle so I'm assuming the body will fit. I'm also presuming 35028 only ever had a late crest long wheel base tender.

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13 minutes ago, robmcg said:

 

I just discovered a complete MN chassis in my spares department, I had forgotten about it, so having bought a 35028 R2169 body the other day from Peters Spares for 30 quid feel quite chuffed.  The chassis is pre-plug post-sprung rear axle so I'm assuming the body will fit. I'm also presuming 35028 only ever had a late crest long wheel base tender.

Dont assume that... theres two different body/chassis fits, and 35028 has been modelled with both of them. One has greater space opened out under the body to allow dcc chips with sound to be accommodated, the 2000 was DCC compatible. The DCC ready (Chip on chassis version) doesn't fit under the earlier body-of very similar appearance.

(i found out the hard way).

 

since then, the chip has been moved to the tender, and the chassis/coupling modified, this year they are releasing 35028 again and so I assume that will make it 3 chassis variants of 2 different bodies of 35028  out there.

Edited by adb968008
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Here below is a poor quickly-taken photo of the discovered chassis...   I'm so dumb I cannot say if that is DCC fitted, or ready, or not DCC-ready,  any idea. Runs perfectly on DC. Solid rear driver mount.

 

Img_4898a_r1800.jpg.b0978771e93a2b1f6d21c266209df8be.jpg

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2 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

DCC ready. The 8 pin socket is under the orange blob (capacitor).

 

Ah!  I'm presuming therefore that the Peters Spares' body for 35028 won't fit over it, and I shall move on to 'plan b', which has yet to be formulated. (Presuming that their spare bodies are from early version 35028s which weren't DCC-ready?)

 

Thanks very much. 

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