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Dud Polarity Switch or user error?


Tomathee
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Hello, I've attempted wiring up both my first point motor and a polarity switch, between the forum and the instructions of the various parts I believe I've installed everything correctly however it isn't working as intended, I've made some attempts at locating the problem and I'm seeking advice on anything else I can try to rule out a faulty part.

 

The issue: When using the point, locos will move over it perfectly in one route (straight ahead in this example), however when the switch is thrown the loco stops on the frog area.

 

Parts: Peco electrofrog point (with the wires cut and other rails soldered as per the instructions, insulated joiners at the frog), Peco side mounted point motor (PL11), Gaugemaster polarity switch (GM500 Universal Relay Switch), standard Expo on-off-on switch, Hornby DC controller (HM2000?) with AC output. I have neither the knowledge of electrical symbols or artistic skill to draw out the wiring, in short: positive (red) from the AC output on the controller goes to the centre connection on the switch, two wires out from the end connectors of the switch to a connector block, from this two wires out of each connector, one to the point motor and one to the polarity switch. The polarity switch has a connection to the frog and one to each of the bus wires. The negative (black) from the polarity switch meets the return from the point motor (green on the peco part) into a connector block, wire out of this back to negative on the controller. The joints are all via connector block, T tap connectors or soldered. The wire is flex for the bus, from bus to polarity switch, and polarity switch to frog wire (1.5mm2, suitable for electric fan ovens), otherwise it is 2 strands of 7x0.2mm soldered at both ends (as suggested in another thread to make use of it in place of buying 16x0.2mm). The cable from controller to switch to point motor/polarity switch is approx 5ft.

 

What I've tried: The point with or without the polarity switch wired in throws back and forwards using the switch and locos run over without derailments. It looks to make good contact between the switch/stock rails, I used a paper to mark the line for siting the motor and so on. Swapping the track feed cables to the polarity switch has the effect of swapping the route that works correctly without stalling (turning left now works, attempting straight ahead stalls). Following this I redid one of the T tap connection on the non-working side to the bus wire to no effect, the other end is soldered to the polarity switch. When a loco attempts to take the non-working route, it doesn't seem to short out the controller (it doesn't need switching off at the wall and the loco resumes once pushed back towards the toe of the point). Prior to installing the motor and switch when I had done the cut/solder on the point rails in preparation, bigger locos would slow down over the frog area but make it across without stalling, presumably due to enough wheels remaining in contact, however smaller locos did not and stalled on the frog. Now, when taking the route which works there is no slow-down on any loco, indicating power is going to the frog, although when attempting the other route larger locos no longer pass after slowing down, merely stop.

 

I could take out the cable from polarity switch to bus wire and replace, but it was new cable and soldered so I doubt will help, I re-did the T tap connector which I would have placed as the weak point to no avail. At present I don't have a multimeter although if that is needed to confirm anything I'll get one in. Apart from that I'm out of ideas, I did wonder if it might be something to do with the connector block from the switch, and cables coming out of it together to the motor and polarity switch, although it's similar to the instruction diagram. Maybe only one should go from switch to motor, and a separate wire from the point motor end to the polarity switch? As you can tell electrics aren't my strong point.

 

Any suggestions welcome, or confirmation that it is a dud will save me time tomorrow retrying connections for the 19th time and banging my head under the board for the 73rd time.

 

Many thanks

Tom

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4 hours ago, Tomathee said:

Hello, I've attempted wiring up both my first point motor and a polarity switch, between the forum and the instructions of the various parts I believe I've installed everything correctly however it isn't working as intended, I've made some attempts at locating the problem and I'm seeking advice on anything else I can try to rule out a faulty part.

 

The issue: When using the point, locos will move over it perfectly in one route (straight ahead in this example), however when the switch is thrown the loco stops on the frog area.

 

Parts: Peco electrofrog point (with the wires cut and other rails soldered as per the instructions, insulated joiners at the frog), Peco side mounted point motor (PL11), Gaugemaster polarity switch (GM500 Universal Relay Switch), standard Expo on-off-on switch, Hornby DC controller (HM2000?) with AC output. I have neither the knowledge of electrical symbols or artistic skill to draw out the wiring, in short: positive (red) from the AC output on the controller goes to the centre connection on the switch, two wires out from the end connectors of the switch to a connector block, from this two wires out of each connector, one to the point motor and one to the polarity switch. The polarity switch has a connection to the frog and one to each of the bus wires. The negative (black) from the polarity switch meets the return from the point motor (green on the peco part) into a connector block, wire out of this back to negative on the controller. The joints are all via connector block, T tap connectors or soldered. The wire is flex for the bus, from bus to polarity switch, and polarity switch to frog wire (1.5mm2, suitable for electric fan ovens), otherwise it is 2 strands of 7x0.2mm soldered at both ends (as suggested in another thread to make use of it in place of buying 16x0.2mm). The cable from controller to switch to point motor/polarity switch is approx 5ft.

 

What I've tried: The point with or without the polarity switch wired in throws back and forwards using the switch and locos run over without derailments. It looks to make good contact between the switch/stock rails, I used a paper to mark the line for siting the motor and so on. Swapping the track feed cables to the polarity switch has the effect of swapping the route that works correctly without stalling (turning left now works, attempting straight ahead stalls). Following this I redid one of the T tap connection on the non-working side to the bus wire to no effect, the other end is soldered to the polarity switch. When a loco attempts to take the non-working route, it doesn't seem to short out the controller (it doesn't need switching off at the wall and the loco resumes once pushed back towards the toe of the point). Prior to installing the motor and switch when I had done the cut/solder on the point rails in preparation, bigger locos would slow down over the frog area but make it across without stalling, presumably due to enough wheels remaining in contact, however smaller locos did not and stalled on the frog. Now, when taking the route which works there is no slow-down on any loco, indicating power is going to the frog, although when attempting the other route larger locos no longer pass after slowing down, merely stop.

 

I could take out the cable from polarity switch to bus wire and replace, but it was new cable and soldered so I doubt will help, I re-did the T tap connector which I would have placed as the weak point to no avail. At present I don't have a multimeter although if that is needed to confirm anything I'll get one in. Apart from that I'm out of ideas, I did wonder if it might be something to do with the connector block from the switch, and cables coming out of it together to the motor and polarity switch, although it's similar to the instruction diagram. Maybe only one should go from switch to motor, and a separate wire from the point motor end to the polarity switch? As you can tell electrics aren't my strong point.

 

Any suggestions welcome, or confirmation that it is a dud will save me time tomorrow retrying connections for the 19th time and banging my head under the board for the 73rd time.

 

Many thanks

Tom

Certainly start by getting a multimeter. It will inform you of the problem rather than guessing. 

A cheap digital one will be fine for this sort of work.

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Can you confirm or otherwise that you are using one switch to operate the point motor and a separate switch to set the frog polarity?

 

I'm not familiar with the Peco point motors but presume they are conventional solenoid style devices which is why you are using the AC supply. You generally need a momentary (passing) contact switch to operate solenoid motors and as your point seems to be responding to the switch's operation I'm assuming that's the type you have.

 

I would have thought that you should keep the frog wiring completely separate from the point operation wiring so I'm a little puzzled when you say "The negative (black) from the polarity switch meets the return from the point motor (green on the Peco part) into a connector block". Frog polarity switches don't need a centre off switch (although they can be used  if you remember that the centre off position (in this case) doesn't connect anything to the frog.

 

Apologies if I've misunderstood any part of your original post, I'm sure someone will correct me.

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From your description & research on Gaugemasters web site

Your point should be wired something like this

Links x-y & x-z are cut & links "L" installed(ignore all other letters on the drawing, they were for a different post & it was to hard to remove them)

 

pointsssss.png.b9721b80c3b8ef35148e92268f708d01.png

Does the relay click when you operate the point?  (may need to disconnect the point motor to hear the relay)

If no then the wiring to the relay needs looking at

If yes then are the connections for track power & frog may be wrong

I've shown the frog connected to connection  4 & the track connections on 5 & 6

Connecting the frog to 1 & the track to 2 & 3 is also OK

 

If the frog polarity is wrong then swap track wires to the relay connections 5 & 6

 

John

 

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Hi all, thanks for the replies. In response to Ray, it was one switch for both motor and polarity switch, as per the image below of the instructions. They also mention only a momentary pulse is needed, which fits the bill for centre off, happy to be corrected. Back to the switch, I followed the diagram below, with the crude hand-drawn diamonds to show where I added connector blocks to split wires off to two things. You made reference to my saying about the negative from the motor and return from the polarity switch meeting up to go back to the controller, which was done to my understanding as placing the connector block at the diamond on the far right. Obviously this is a potential area to look at for causing the problem.

 

Fast forward to this afternoon, I thought again about your point (no pun intended) on separate switches and before going off to shop for a multimeter thought I would see if I could put together enough parts to make a separate switch for the polarity and the motor. So I took the wires that split off from the connector blocks to be left with the AC output from the controller to the switch, to the point motor and back to the AC on the controller. I then did a separate wire to another switch (centre off is all I had), the two outputs from this to A & B on the polarity switch as per the image below and a separate return. Obviously the point motor continued to throw as throughout, but lo and behold with trying both sides of the switch to the polarity switch it seems to work now, confirmed by testing to other route and figuring out the correct pairing of switch throws for both.

 

A couple of things to check out - the polarity switch is wired to the DC output from the controller, I think this is permitted by the instructions, it says AC/DC. Otherwise I'll need to thin down my soldered ends so both will fit in the AC connectors on the back of the controller? As far as keeping them wired separately, is there any way of bringing them back together to function under one switch? The main user will be a five year old, and I was under the impression that the other motors (under the board PL10?) can have the polarity joined together under one switch, just a bit less hassle having to throw two switches. Or is it the case that seeing now that all the parts seem to work is there a still unidentified error I made in putting it all together and I can get it back under one switch? 

 

IMG_20200704_134505341

 

John - thanks, I saw your reply when I came back to post the above. I had carried out the x-y and x-z along with the L links as you suggested. To be honest I can't hear any clicking from the relay, with them under separate switches currently I could test again without the motor and still nothing, either my poor hearing or I need to twist my neck further into the corner of the board. I believe your diagram is how I was setup originally, with the wires from the switch diverging to the motor and polarity, and the (light blue) joining back up from the motor and polarity switch. Does seem a bit strange that it didn't work as I feel I followed your diagram which seems to corroborate the instructions, could become another unsolved mystery. One thing I haven't done that is on your diagram is the extra droppers, I have at the toe end but I didn't put one on the outer rails further along (didn't seem necessary on an un-broken rail, please correct me though), also do z1 and y1 on your diagram represent insulated joiners? If so then I should be fine on where the bus joins up to the rails.

 

Many thanks again. I must say I enjoyed the trial and error and the crudity of my seemingly successful temporary fix, which currently includes wooden pegs holding some of the wires in contact for testing, until confirmed and I can take to the soldering iron.

Tom

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Tom

 

Thanks for posting the drawing. Things are a little clearer now (to me).

 

The drawing shows three terminals (numbered 1, 2 & 3 in the drawing) - two (Nos. 2 & 3) marked stock rails - which are the two outer rails on the point) & one (No. 1) marked frog. That part of the device is designed to switch the frog polarity. There is no connection in the diagram between those three terminals and the (A, B & C) terminals that drive the motor itself.

 

I believe that you have wired the point motor itself satisfactorily as you say it is responding to the operation of the switch. Can you confirm that your frog wiring goes to terminals 1, 2 & 3? It may be necessary to swap the wires to terminals 2 & 3 if the frog isn't powered when you first set it up.

 

It is possible that changing the point by hand also affects the links between terminal 1 and terminals 2 & 3 so don't worry too much if you can't hear a relay work - it may just be an inbuilt switch in the motor rather than a relay.

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Thanks Ray, I think I had been under the impression/misunderstood the instructions that switching between A and B also switched between 1 and 2 or 1 and 3, aka under the same wiring and switch. The frog wiring is as you say and seems to be working when under a separate switch to the point motor. Just curious on whether it’s doable or what I’d need to change to bring it all under one switch and to confirm using DC for the polarity switch isn’t going to burn the house down or anything.

 

Hopefully the next thing on the list (CDU) will be easier.

 

Cheers 

Tom

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8 hours ago, Tomathee said:

One thing I haven't done that is on your diagram is the extra droppers, I have at the toe end but I didn't put one on the outer rails further along (didn't seem necessary on an un-broken rail, please correct me though), also do z1 and y1 on your diagram represent insulated joiners? If so then I should be fine on where the bus joins up to the rails.

Tom 

This drawing was originally made for  DCC so the extra droppers are not necessary

The z1,y1 are Insulated Rail Joiners

 

My railroad is DCC & I use a couple of Automotive bulbs for checking that there is power on the tracks & for frog polarity

With DC just turn the controller to full & you have 12V DC between the rails (don't forget to make sure there are no locos on the track)

 

The following shows 2 lamps connected from rail a - frog & rail b - frog 

Point to straight LH pic & point to curved RH pic

With the lamps connected as below if you change the point & the lamps change then the frog if being switched

If both lamps come on at half brilliance then you have a problem with the frog wiring

 

1306873200_pointlamps.jpg.1ceb472cccb17ff934c006fba7152683.jpg

The point started life as a Peco Electrofrog but I needed to run a 3' gauge line through it, hence the extra frog, both frogs are electrically bonded but isolated from stock & running rails.If you look closely(in the RH pic) you may be able to see the 6 gaps surrounding the frogs

John

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