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DCC Novice - controller advice needed


Ossian
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I'm returning to railway modelling after many years, and looking for advice on DCC.    I am going to work in N-gauge, and go for an early BR period layout.

 

I know that DCC controllers should be compatible with any decoder chips, and plan to (start with) only DCC-fitted locos., however I have two questions

 

1) I have a Hornby 'Select' controller (R8213) which is about 12-14 years old.   Would this be suitable as a short term solution?  - my budget is initially focussed on track and rolling stock.   I would probably have points electrically operated but not DCC at this stage.

2) In the long term (a couple of years), I would like to have some computer control together with a hand controller or two (moving points and signals to DCC operation ideally through a PC).   What controllers would you recommend to give this capability?

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welcome back :)

 

I suggest that you look at DCC Ready locos rather than DCC fitted if possible as many DCC Fitted decoders leave a bit to be desired in terms of performance. They are functional, they work but they can be severely limited in capability.

 

i suggest that you consider looking at a z/Z21 to replace the Select that you have, and if you can stretch to it buy a Wi-Fi MultiMaus to go with it. They are not the cheapest controller about but they are very, very reliable and will provide for all your needs as you progress through your journey. They are especially suited for automation and PC control, with the Z21 offering more flexibility for future integration that the z21.

 

There are cheaper alternatives, however having personally tried several I have always returned to the Z21 for the reliability, quality and performance. If you buy a Z21 then that will be all you will need for a large layout and it provides the connectivity for most peripherals to support automation. 

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Everyone has their own needs and preferences as far as DCC Controllers are concerned and I guess you will need to do some research before settling on what is best for you. It is oft said on this forum that if you can, you should get to a shop that has various controllers you can try before deciding.

 

If you are happy with the Select (which will be fine for the short term) you may like to consider/look at a Hornby Elite and Railmaster The Elite receives some criticism for it's menu driven functions but when coupled with Railmaster software it is extremely competent. I run a layout with about 40 locos and 60 sets of points all controlled with Railmaster and it works very well.

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The challenge with Railmaster is that it isn't actually automation because it doesn't receive any feedback from the track or locos therefore it doesn't know where anything actually is . Being honest It is a functional control panel to enable you to run the trains, but automation it isn't.

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Whatever you choose I suggest you get it from a retailer with good DCC knowledge and customer service - very helpful with both advice and any warranty issues.

I have no personal interest in any such operation but have been very glad of help from my normal supplier!

Chris

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1 hour ago, WIMorrison said:

The challenge with Railmaster is that it isn't actually automation because it doesn't receive any feedback from the track or locos therefore it doesn't know where anything actually is . Being honest It is a functional control panel to enable you to run the trains, but automation it isn't.

 

You are of course quite right that Railmaster is not "automation" but unless I misread the OP he was looking for some "computer control" which Railmaster does.

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If you get your Select updated to latest firmware then it becomes a reasonably capable basic controller albeit still limited to loco addresses 1-59. It will then operate all functions F0-F28 and will be able to change any CVs the decoder supports.

 

Update is by return to Hornby once you have a returns number from HCC. Cost £18 incl VAT and postage one way.

 

The Select however cannot connect to a PC seeing as Hornby canned their Select-a-LInk PC interface cable, so it can only be used with RM as a Walkabout handset to an Elite.. RM of course only works with Hornby controllers until someone cracks the handshake protocol. 

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Just now, WIMorrison said:

Unfortunately with Railmaster the human provides the control, all the computer does is provide an interface for the human to operate the layout.

 

Railmaster does not provide any form of computer control.

 

Railmaster can record and allow a user to modify programs which will follow a sequence of timed events, which could be seen as automatic control of a sort. E.g. running locos for speed and direction, operating functions, operating points and signals and applying conditional events.

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Many thanks for all the replies - I will certainly follow the advice.

 

@JST - I don't see myself sticking with the Select - it is more of "something to get me moving" until I can afford a lot better - perhaps WiFi or with a walk-around controller on a lead.   I am budgeting about 1K for track/fittings (8' x 3' maximum size) and initial rolling stock (perhaps an 0-6-0T and some sort of MT loco, plus a few coaches and wagons.    The plan is to use Peco code 80 - not realistic, I know.

 

@WIMorrison - DCC ready seems a good compromise, and I understand many online retailers will fit a suitable decoder for you (my worry is getting the correct socket, but not being able to find space for the decoder.    I live in NE Scotland, so have no suitable shops I can visit within any reasonable distance.   My local model shop will get me anything I want, but thats not the same as seeing it first.

 

@RAF96 - many thanks.   Do I need the firmware update immediately? (as I said, I see the Select as an interim solution to be followed by eBay as soon as I can replace it

Edited by Ossian
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5 hours ago, Ossian said:

2) In the long term (a couple of years), I would like to have some computer control together with a hand controller or two (moving points and signals to DCC operation ideally through a PC).   What controllers would you recommend to give this capability?

 

An option for you to consider - is the Bachmann Dynamis Ultima. It has in the past had bad press as the walkabout hand held controllers use IR to connect by wireless to the base station. This was liable to interference from traditional incandescent or fluorescent light bulbs. As these have largely been replaced with LED or similar that illuminate on specific frequencies, that problem is largely eliminated. 

 

This is essentially a rebadged ESU Navigator and can be linked to a PC either with their own "rail controller" software - which is fairly limited or "RocRail" (free) which offers a fully featured package that will provide the applications you describe and much more - up to full automation and train control if you want. With a modest add on - it will let you control with tablet or mobile phone via an IP link from a browser.

 

In an ideal world, one of the most important aspects is the ergonomics of the device and how it feels in your hand, do you prefer sliders, buttons, knobs or joysticks for control? I think sticking with your Select until you have the opportunity to handle a range of options would be wise. Model Rail Scotland in your diary for next year perhaps?

 

 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, JimFin said:

 

 

An option for you to consider - is the Bachmann Dynamis Ultima. ….

 

 

 

I'd say avoid.   Its an antique.  ESU dropped it ages ago and introduced other products to replace it.  To use with any form of automation, a feedback system (to detect) trains needs to be added (which doesn't seem to be "obvious" as to how).    There are better options. 

 

I'd not bank on Model Rail Scotland happening in February 2021, its currently in the "not known" if it will be held.  

And, big shows are not a great environment to evaluate systems with retailers.   They may be a good place to ask around layout owners, but even then, I'm not sure you'll get in depth discussions of what will or won't work - particularly with questions around automation, which is a very specialist niche area.   

 

There are folk around in the E (and NE) of Scotland who can help with DCC stuff, but travelling may be necessary. 

 

 

- Nigel  (SE Scotland)

 

 

Edited by Nigelcliffe
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5 hours ago, RAF96 said:

 

Railmaster can record and allow a user to modify programs which will follow a sequence of timed events, which could be seen as automatic control of a sort. E.g. running locos for speed and direction, operating functions, operating points and signals and applying conditional events.

 

And therein lies the issue as the train is not under control. Railmaster will issue the command irrespective where the train is, what state it is in and will operate turnouts and signals whether a train is at the signal and it will even operate points when train is on top of the turnout.

 

That is not control.

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1 hour ago, Nigelcliffe said:

To use with any form of automation, a feedback system (to detect) trains needs to be added (which doesn't seem to be "obvious" as to how).  

 

With RocRail - the Bachmann/ESU command station is simply being used as a middleware box to transfer the data from the laptop to the BUS. RocRail offers full automation supporting all the sensor and detection services / devices required.

 

I do agree that if you want a "comprehensive" DCC command station, Dynamis is not the best out there but if you are using computerised control - then the basic box simply acting as a middleware device between the laptop and the layout serves very well. 

 

Comes down to what you want - a comprehensive DCC controller or computer control. If the later, I see little point in having a very expensive command system.

 

Great that the technology offers such a variety of options for folk.

 

Would be a shame is Model Rail Scotland got canned for next year but difficult to know how best Ossian can get his hands on some options - Aberdeenshire to Inverness is well enough served and the clubs very helpful but once into the far north east - Dingwall etc. more difficult.

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4 hours ago, Ossian said:

@WIMorrison - DCC ready seems a good compromise, and I understand many online retailers will fit a suitable decoder for you (my worry is getting the correct socket, but not being able to find space for the decoder.    I live in NE Scotland, so have no suitable shops I can visit within any reasonable distance.   My local model shop will get me anything I want, but thats not the same as seeing it first.

 

Online retailers will only fit the decoders that they sell, which may not be the best option.

 

For UK outline N Gauge, DCC ready models use two types of DCC decoder socket, the NEM651 6 pin and the Next18 socket. 

To add a decoder you just remove the loco/tender body, remove the "blanking plug", and add the decoder.

 

Apart from the odd model that needs a right angle decoder, there should be no issues finding space for a decoder in a DCC ready model.

 

IMO Zimo make the best decoders and their MX617N (6 pin) and MX618N18 (Next18) decoders cost 20 pounds.

 

Of course, if you are considering DCC Sound then that changes matters.

 

Regards,

 

John P

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2 hours ago, JimFin said:

 

With RocRail - the Bachmann/ESU command station is simply being used as a middleware box to transfer the data from the laptop to the BUS. RocRail offers full automation supporting all the sensor and detection services / devices required.

 

I do agree that if you want a "comprehensive" DCC command station, Dynamis is not the best out there but if you are using computerised control - then the basic box simply acting as a middleware device between the laptop and the layout serves very well. 

 

 

Trouble is, as soon as you need that "sensor" capability (any automation), you need another set of hardware interfaces to the computer.  It soon gets out of hand, and the simplicity of a more capable system to begin with starts to look the better option. 

 

I have no problem with RocRail,  though in the grand scheme of pricing up "automatic running", the cost of software shouldn't be a decisive factor.  Any automation needs a lot of hardware which is where the money usually ends up being spent. 

 

I agree it depends on aims.   

 

 

 

2 hours ago, jpendle said:

 

IMO Zimo make the best decoders and their MX617N (6 pin) and MX618N18 (Next18) decoders cost 20 pounds.

 

 

Not only superb decoders.   But, they support RailCom,  which if considering automation can make things a bit easier as RailCom can identify a loco on the track.   
Many "cheap" decoders won't support RailCom, so may end up being both worse in control, and restricting options on automation.

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

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You might want to consider the SPROG (www.sprog-dcc.co.uk) linked to JMRI (www.jmri.org) and a smartphone. It's an option that requires more technical knowledge, but it's not difficult In my opinion, it's not only cheaper than many of the other options but better.

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1 hour ago, grriff said:

You might want to consider the SPROG (www.sprog-dcc.co.uk) linked to JMRI (www.jmri.org) and a smartphone. It's an option that requires more technical knowledge, but it's not difficult In my opinion, it's not only cheaper than many of the other options but better.

 

Unfortunately, no sensor capability for automated running, without adding an entire separate system for that.    So seems to be a wrong direction for the stated original purposes. 

 

( I have a Sprog, they're superb.   And I use JMRI (I designed a part of it), and use JMRI with smartphones.  ). 

 

- Nigel

 

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I would recommend Lenz - I’ve had Lenz ever since I converted to DCC and in almost 20 years I’ve done pretty much everything with it from pootling around with little shelf layouts to full blown computer control (via RR&Co) of a 30’x12’ eight track exhibition layout utilising phones and tablets as throttles as well as integrating Lenz, Roco & Fleischmann handsets.


The Lenz LR101 feedback detector will tell you what train is where - you can go other routes but Lenz is a superb system

 

They aren’t the newest and shiniest manufacturer on the scene but their kit is bulletproof, reliable and keeps its resale value.

 

I’ve just incorporated MegaPoints servo controller boards onto a Lenz run DCC layout with zero effort and am about to venture into the world of Arduino powered animations for a new exhibition layout which will be run with one of my Lenz Set 100’s - don’t anticipate any difficulties their either.

 

 

 

karl

 

 

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Just to update this thread, I got a loco (a Graham Farish Class B1 - part of the NE Freight set) and separately a Zimo MX617 decoder - cheap as chips and a big thanks to Kevin from Coastal DCC for his advice and excellent service.

I ran the train briefly on the supplied analog controller, then, with heart in mouth, undid the tender and popped in the decoder - about 5 minutes once I worked out the right screws to use.    Out came the Hornby Select and I had everything running on DCC.   Its a bit of overkill for a single oval of track, but I'm happy to be back into running trains.   (Even happier that the sprogs have taken an interest too and dug out various piles of Hornby they had never touched)

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