Private owner wagons

[Caley 439]

I've picked up a few Dapol private owner wagons recently (pleasantly surprised to see that they're still produced in the UK), having chosen them because of their particular liveries.

 

My question is, did many of these liveries actually exist - even if portrayed here on the wrong type of wagon?   I'm not too fussed personally, but it's a curiosity. From what I've seen the "Fife Coal Co. "wagon is a prototypical livery (not sure if on a 7 plank wagon though), and the intriguing green "Devlin's" one must have some prototypical basis as Harburn Hobbies have a limited edition of it from Bachmann as well. 

 

Interested to hear peoples thoughts on this.

[Marshall5]

One of the very early (1950's) Peco 'Wonderful Wagons' was produced in the dark green Devlin's livery.  Weren't they trawler owners?

Ray.

[Caley 439]

 Yes Devlin's were trawler owners, the coal being transported in these wagons for their fleet of trawlers. 

 

Have come across these images on the HMRS site, which actually shows what some of the Dapol wagons were based on - close being the same number of planks, but having differences such as curved top plank on the ends and in the case of the William McLaren one dumb buffers!

 

 

https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/david-cook-dundee-10t-4-plank-no-10-op-r3l-regd-1901-age-neg-39021.html

https://www.Dapol.co.uk/shop/oo-gauge/wagons-OO-Gauge/4-plank-wagons/4F-040-027-OO-Gauge-4-Plank-Wagon-David-Cook-12

 

https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/william-mclaren-dundee-8t-4-plank-no-32-op-1897-f3r-dumb-buffers-disc-wheels-curved-fifth-plank-on-ends.html

https://www.Dapol.co.uk/shop/oo-gauge/wagons-OO-Gauge/4-plank-wagons/4F-040-025-OO-Gauge-4-Plank-Wagon-W-McLaren-27

 

 

https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/ballantyne-d-peebles-8t-5-plank-no-1-op-1898-f3r-open-spoke-wheels-wooden-solebars-side-doors.html

https://www.Dapol.co.uk/shop/oo-gauge/wagons-OO-Gauge/5-plank-wagons?product_id=2565

 

 

I guess it's just the same as before with manufacturers putting liveries on wagons which are seen as being 'close enough', though was a bit surprised to see the small "empty to" plate on the McLaren wagon, which looks like it might say "empty to Springbank Colliery" as on the model. 

[chriswrightmk]

Wagon Yard have started producing private owner open wagons in N and OO using Dapol wagons. Have taken on some suggestions from customers for liveries and numbers. The first 12 in N are out and brilliant. An interesting development.

They have a website showing a range of wagons commissioned by them and others.

[Les1952]

There used to be a database of Dapol's private owner limited editions.  However it didn't survive the death of the guy who created it.

 

From personal experience Dapol would do a 7-plank wagon  commission in multiples of 100 (plus or minus a few).  They start with a few more (110 comes to mind but I'm not absolutely sure), and any rejects were docked from the total.  As a result you could end up with anywhere from mid nineties to 105 or so in the batch.  We investigated a commemorative wagon for the late Gwyn Humphreys before going on to establish the award at Warley. 

 

Maybe a little lacking in detail by 2020 standards, but put them in a train and they are bomb proof.  What sets off from the fiddle yard is guaranteed to return to it providing the operator hasn't rammed the train into something else or changed a point under it...

 

Les

 

[Caley 439]

On 17/07/2020 at 23:35, Les1952 said:

There used to be a database of Dapol's private owner limited editions.  However it didn't survive the death of the guy who created it.

 

From personal experience Dapol would do a 7-plank wagon  commission in multiples of 100 (plus or minus a few).  They start with a few more (110 comes to mind but I'm not absolutely sure), and any rejects were docked from the total.  As a result you could end up with anywhere from mid nineties to 105 or so in the batch.  We investigated a commemorative wagon for the late Gwyn Humphreys before going on to establish the award at Warley. 

 

Maybe a little lacking in detail by 2020 standards, but put them in a train and they are bomb proof.  What sets off from the fiddle yard is guaranteed to return to it providing the operator hasn't rammed the train into something else or changed a point under it...

 

Les

 

 

Pity about the database, it would be interesting to have a browse of.

 

While packing some wagons away I came across an older Dapol wagon commission by the Bo'ness & Kinneil  Railway - this is a 7 plank wagon (as per one in their museum), but compared to their newer wagons the brake gear is chunkier as the underframe & brake detail is a one-piece molding whereas more recent models have the brake lever added as a separate piece.  

 

Not yet had a chance to run the newer Dapol wagons, though the older ones (from about 10 years ago and before) were very reliable.  A bit concerned when I saw Sam's Trains (no I'm not a follower, though it is handy seeing items if they've already been tried and tested) review of some Dapol wagons (egg vans) which kept derailing however, the wheel profile is shallower than those on Hornby & Oxford Rail stock but with a bit of added weight think they'll be ok. 

[jonnyuk]

i've found with some of the Dapol wagon they derail but sticking weight in them improves the ride quality no end

[ikcdab]

On 04/07/2020 at 23:07, Caley 439 said:

I've picked up a few Dapol private owner wagons recently (pleasantly surprised to see that they're still produced in the UK), having chosen them because of their particular liveries.

 

My question is, did many of these liveries actually exist - even if portrayed here on the wrong type of wagon?   I'm not too fussed personally, but it's a curiosity. From what I've seen the "Fife Coal Co. "wagon is a prototypical livery (not sure if on a 7 plank wagon though), and the intriguing green "Devlin's" one must have some prototypical basis as Harburn Hobbies have a limited edition of it from Bachmann as well. 

 

Interested to hear peoples thoughts on this.

Many of the liveries are authentic, especially the private commissions. The problem is that they are stuck on generic wagon bodies that are not authentic. 

 

[No Decorum]

11 hours ago, ikcdab said:

Many of the liveries are authentic, especially the private commissions. The problem is that they are stuck on generic wagon bodies that are not authentic. 

 

I have said more than once (sorry) that the field is wide open for one or more authentic pre-grouping wagons. Relatively cheap to tool, they would go on and on being produced for years, generating profit for whichever manufacturer does it.

[hmrspaul]

3 hours ago, No Decorum said:

I have said more than once (sorry) that the field is wide open for one or more authentic pre-grouping wagons. Relatively cheap to tool, they would go on and on being produced for years, generating profit for whichever manufacturer does it.

.... And go on and on that they are not suitable for X , Y, Z etc etc. These wagons were built to standards but these standards permitted considerable detail differences. The five huge tomes of RCH drawings that used to be held at BP HQ Hemel Hempsted showed how much variance there could be. Very little has been published of these, the best source is https://hmrs.org.uk/private-owner-wagons-from-the-ince-waggon-ironworks-co-150218.html

 

As to the liveries produced by RTR companies. Ignoring most are on the wrong base wagon, there are few which are "made up". Turton in his long series of books frequently suggests when models have reproduced the finish. What are made up are the many private commissions and also most of the vans - because PO finished standard vans were very rare - there were a good selection of different Salt vans but they were usually rather different to the company vans of the time. Most of the false van finishes have been discussed on RMweb, some quite recently.

 

Paul

[ikcdab]

I often look at Wessex wagons. http://www.wessexwagons.co.uk/

Although they use standard base vehicles, they do detail which of their liveries are authentic and which are variations or just made up.

Edited July 21, 2020 by ikcdab

[Caley 439]

On 21/07/2020 at 08:52, No Decorum said:

I have said more than once (sorry) that the field is wide open for one or more authentic pre-grouping wagons. Relatively cheap to tool, they would go on and on being produced for years, generating profit for whichever manufacturer does it.

 As an example, Oxford Rail have done a pre-grouping wagon (their NB Jubilee mineral wagon) , though this has had a few liveries put on it which are somewhat questionable (but nice nonetheless)

 

20 hours ago, ikcdab said:

I often look at Wessex wagons. http://www.wessexwagons.co.uk/

Although they use standard base vehicles, they do detail which of their liveries are authentic and which are variations or just made up.

  Had a look through there and I like how they give a bit of information about the prototype wagons and the companies that used them - more of this sort of thing would be interesting 

 

On 20/07/2020 at 20:59, ikcdab said:

Many of the liveries are authentic, especially the private commissions. The problem is that they are stuck on generic wagon bodies that are not authentic. 

 

   I guess that it's always going to be a compromise of some sorts.  The Fife Coal Co.   wagon   https://www.harburnhobbies.co.uk/acatalog/Dapol-4F-071-139-2898.html#SID=209  appears to be prototypical  with regards to livery, whereas I'm not so sure about the Wemyss (were they grey?) or the Newbattle (only seen pictures of the black example at one of the coal mining museums, though Oxford Rail have done one of the Jubilee wagons in this livery as well) wagons 

[trainfan101]

Hi there.

I noticed the comment about the demise of a database of Dapol wagons. Over the years that I've been collecting, I've put together an Excel database of  OO models from most manufacturers covering locos, coaches and wagons.  It currently runs to over 28,000 entries, with the Dapol wagons being nearly 4600 items as of yesterday.

I'm sure the attached pdf will be of interest to the forum.  There will be errors and typos, and undoubtedly a few omissions, so any corrections will be gratefully received.  

Dapol wagon list.pdf

[Teedoubleudee]

On 30/07/2020 at 00:36, trainfan101 said:

Hi there.

I noticed the comment about the demise of a database of Dapol wagons. Over the years that I've been collecting, I've put together an Excel database of  OO models from most manufacturers covering locos, coaches and wagons.  It currently runs to over 28,000 entries, with the Dapol wagons being nearly 4600 items as of yesterday.

I'm sure the attached pdf will be of interest to the forum.  There will be errors and typos, and undoubtedly a few omissions, so any corrections will be gratefully received.  

Dapol wagon list.pdf 525.16 kB · 1,564 downloads

This link gives an error. Does anyone have a copy thay can share please?