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Sound on analog track


GreenDiesel
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I currently use an analog 1x8' layout. I'm not interested in switching to DCC, mainly because of the cost of chipping several locos and also because my DC track work is working well for me. However, I do love the sound of modern sound-equipped locos. Does anyone know if any controllers are in the works that might allow a sound-equipped loco to run on DC track?  I find it frustrating that sound and DCC seem to go hand in hand.  I'm hoping for the day when they won't, i.e. when analog controllers can be used for sound locos. Thanks in advance, Rob

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As far as I know most DCC sound locos will work & make sound when running on a DC track .Hornby TTS is an exception

.

the throttle has to be advanced to about 5V before the DCC decoder gets enough power to activate the sound & start moving

 

BLI (broadwaylimited models) had a sound system with diesel or steam sounds that worked in time with the speed of the loco

While the loco was moving switching the forward/reverse switch would sound the bell or horn

if I remember correctly switch the for/rev sw rapidly from for to rev (or Rev to For if you are going in reverse) & the bell would ring

switch the for/rev sw rapidly again & the bell would stop ringing

switch the for/rev sw to reverse & the horn would sound

switch the For/Rev sw back to forward & the horn stops

Oh have I got the horn & bell back to front. Not sure it matters but you get the idea

I seem to recall BLI also made a box with function buttons on it, this box went between the DC controller & the track

 

For best results when running DCC loco on DC the controller should have a smooth out put from 0V to 12V

Resistance (Triang/Hornby H&M etc) controllers work but only just sometimes

PWM controllers can scramble the CV settings in decoders

Hope this helps

John

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9 hours ago, John ks said:

As far as I know most DCC sound locos will work & make sound when running on a DC track .Hornby TTS is an exception

.

the throttle has to be advanced to about 5V before the DCC decoder gets enough power to activate the sound & start moving

 

BLI (broadwaylimited models) had a sound system with diesel or steam sounds that worked in time with the speed of the loco

While the loco was moving switching the forward/reverse switch would sound the bell or horn

if I remember correctly switch the for/rev sw rapidly from for to rev (or Rev to For if you are going in reverse) & the bell would ring

switch the for/rev sw rapidly again & the bell would stop ringing

switch the for/rev sw to reverse & the horn would sound

switch the For/Rev sw back to forward & the horn stops

Oh have I got the horn & bell back to front. Not sure it matters but you get the idea

I seem to recall BLI also made a box with function buttons on it, this box went between the DC controller & the track

 

For best results when running DCC loco on DC the controller should have a smooth out put from 0V to 12V

Resistance (Triang/Hornby H&M etc) controllers work but only just sometimes

PWM controllers can scramble the CV settings in decoders

Hope this helps

John

Thanks! ... so which are the best British outline locos (that aren't TTS) that you'd recommend? Also, are not BLI locos American?  

 

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The biggest difference when running a loco with DCC Sound on analogue DC is that on DC the sound stops when the loco stops because the only way to stop the loco is to turn off the power using the throttle knob. No power to the decoder = no sound from the decoder. That doesn't happen on DCC because the entire layout is powered all the time and each loco stops when the controller tells it to, but the loco then plays the sound of the loco idling until you turn off the sound for that loco with your DCC controller. 

 

I don't know if there is any system that keeps the sound going when the loco is off power. It would need an external power source (battery in the loco?) and a switch to turn that on and off otherwise the sound would keep playing when you took the loco off the track. 

 

I like your avatar. Have you seen the Royal Hudson at the West Coast Railway Heritage Park at Squamish BC or the 4-4-0 #374 in the Roundhouse Community Centre in Vancouver? Lovely locos.

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32 minutes ago, GoingUnderground said:

The biggest difference when running a loco with DCC Sound on analogue DC is that on DC the sound stops when the loco stops because the only way to stop the loco is to turn off the power using the throttle knob. No power to the decoder = no sound from the decoder. That doesn't happen on DCC because the entire layout is powered all the time and each loco stops when the controller tells it to, but the loco then plays the sound of the loco idling until you turn off the sound for that loco with your DCC controller. 

 

I don't know if there is any system that keeps the sound going when the loco is off power. It would need an external power source (battery in the loco?) and a switch to turn that on and off otherwise the sound would keep playing when you took the loco off the track. 

 

I like your avatar. Have you seen the Royal Hudson at the West Coast Railway Heritage Park at Squamish BC or the 4-4-0 #374 in the Roundhouse Community Centre in Vancouver? Lovely locos.

Thanks! In my view, at least some sound is better than none, although I'm bound to become dissatisfied with that and will probably prompt me to switch to DCC later. 

 

My avatar is about 10 years too old, as I visited Exporail near Montreal in 2010 and saw Dominion of Canada then. I now have more current pics of me standing in front of DoC which is now nicely painted in LNER blue (thanks to its return to the UK a few years ago). I was last in Montreal in Oct. 2018 and had a great visit there.  The Exporail museum also has Waddon there as  well, a nice LBSC Terrier. :-)

 

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5 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

The biggest difference when running a loco with DCC Sound on analogue DC is that on DC the sound stops when the loco stops because the only way to stop the loco is to turn off the power using the throttle knob. No power to the decoder = no sound from the decoder. That doesn't happen on DCC because the entire layout is powered all the time and each loco stops when the controller tells it to, but the loco then plays the sound of the loco idling until you turn off the sound for that loco with your DCC controller. 

 

I don't know if there is any system that keeps the sound going when the loco is off power. It would need an external power source (battery in the loco?) and a switch to turn that on and off otherwise the sound would keep playing when you took the loco off the track. 

 

 

 

No, Keith, that's just not correct.

 

It's perfectly possible to bring a DCC sound model which is operating on analogue to a stand whilst the sounds and lights remain active for as long as you wish. No external power is required, it's a normal feature of quality sound decoders. I've written about this before on RMweb and in Hornby Magazine.

 

This is certainly true of ZIMO sound decoders and I'm pretty sure Loksound would be similar.

 

Uniquely, (I believe), ZIMO sound decoders will also operate with Stay Alive capacitors when on DC, which can provide back-up power if your track is dirty or not prefectly laid.

 

With a normal DC controller, you will get all the sounds except those which require the pressing of a button, for the simple reason that there are no such buttons to press on analogue controllers, normally. So you could expect to hear, randomly generated sounds like injectors and blowers for steam and compressors, exhausters, fans, rail clack plus other automatic sounds like brake squeal and wagon 'snatching' sounds.

 

In addition to the main engine sounds, which will vary with road speed, the start-up sequences of diesel engines plus transitions through the power bands. Engine shut-down sounds can be played if the decoder is also equipped with a suitably sized Stay Alive capacitor. (ZIMO)

 

There is a hybrid DC/DCC system available which, although of limited capability, is able to send messages over DC for things like sounding the horn or whistle blowing.

 

Someone else will be able to identify this controller.

 

Bear in mind that these DCC on DC solutions will still require  a DC sound decoder, which the original post said is what he was trying to avoid due to the expense.

 

There are a couple of sound solutions for DC users which does not use a DCC decoder and are therefore much less expensive.

 

MyLocoSounds, here: http://www.mylocosound.com/

 

And UK based Train Tech http://www.train-tech.com/index.php/sound

 

I mention them as DCC decoder-free solutions. I don't endorse either of them so the OP will need to undertake his own assessment of quality and suitability.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

Edited by pauliebanger
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On 05/07/2020 at 04:05, GreenDiesel said:

.......Does anyone know if any controllers are in the works that might allow a sound-equipped loco to run on DC track?  .......


There have been some devices and controllers produced, that claim to give sound from sound decoder equipped locos, on DC.

The reality is that these solutions actually work with a limited form of DCC.

 

Model Rectifer Corp. ( MRC), who make Gaugemaster’s re-badged DCC systems, produced a device they called “Black Box”, which was aimed at DC users who wished to get sound out of DCC sound equipped locos, but also wished to remain with  DC for their non-DCC locos.

This device has been discontinued, but the “Black Box” element has been incorporated into a dual mode, hybrid DC/ DCC controller, called Tech 6.

Gaugemaster sell the Tech 6 under their own brand name as the DCC75

 

The Tech 6 is a DC controller that can be switched over to operate DCC decoder fitted locos, both sound and non-sound.

The problem with this, is that when switched to DCC mode, DC output is disabled and the Tech 6 becomes a DCC controller, albeit a very limited one.

This means that all analogue, non-decoder fitted locos must be removed from the layout before switching into this mode, otherwise their motors will be damaged. There’s a strong warning in the instructions, to this effect.

 

If you already have a decent DC controller, then it makes more sense to keep that for analogue control and buy a budget DCC system for sound, rather than something like the Tech 6, which is just another DC controller, with a very limited DCC capability.

 

Ron

 

 

.

 

 

Edited by Ron Ron Ron
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Not convenient at all Paul.


Also, I’ve just read a comment that says that on switching power on, the Tech 6 defaults to DCC operation.

I don’t know if this is true or not.

If so, either it’s track output must be isolated from the track until the correct mode (DC or DCC) has been selected, or all analogue locos must be off the tracks at switch on.

 

For example, at the end of a running session, operating with DC, the Tech 6 is switched off and the locos are left on the layout.

When you next go to the layout to run trains (on DC), on switching on power to the Tech 6, it starts in DCC mode and fries the motors of the locos left on the layout.

 

.

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15 minutes ago, GreenDiesel said:

Thanks for this feedback. Still seems a little confusing. I do have an old but very good controller. So I suppose my best option, as suggested, is to get a budget DCC system that would work with it. 

 

Lets clear the confusion. The day you asked for is here already. DC controllers can run DCC sound decoders, though there are some physical limitations. (lack of buttons)

 

If you already have a DC controller, you will be able to run DCC decoder equipped sound models using that.

 

You'll get far more sounds than many people will tell you, and you can, if you wish, have them standing still with lights and sound still operational.

 

All the limitations that exist with DC operations remain*, most obvious is you can control only one model at a time, isolation sections will be required if you wish to have more than one loco on the layout and so on. But you are obviously happy with situation or you would have converted to DCC a long time ago.

 

*If you use ZIMO sound decoders you can also add Stay Alive capacitors, not normally available with analogue control,so this would be a bonus. (In my opinion).

 

Sound decoders which will operate on DC are not cheap, so I would suggest you try a model with DCC sound on your layout as it stands currently. If you find that sound fitted is to your liking, but you would prefer to have access to the other features DCC users take for granted, then by all means get yourself a DCC controller, but,  preferably don't go for a cheap, low featured controller as you will soon find how frustrating it is to have DCC but can't read CVs, access function keys above 9, can't programme CVs or any of the other shortcomings these so called entry level controllers don't advertise before you buy them.

 

Here's short video showing a DCC equipped model operating on DC analogue. What more do you need?

 

You can ignore the Stay Alive part if you wish, just listen to the engine start up, idling whilst standing and engine shut down.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

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Surely the sound will only last as long as the stay alive has charge sufficient to drive the sound component of the decoder? Once stay alive is discharged then sound will stop - unless they have worked out how to feed a DC loco with power when the throttle is at zero - a battery perhaps? But then they wouldn't need the stay alive ...

Edited by WIMorrison
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2 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

Surely the sound will only last as long as the stay alive has charge sufficient to drive the sound component of the decoder? Once stay alive is discharged then sound will stop - unless they have worked out how to feed a DC loco with power when the throttle is at zero - a battery perhaps? But then they wouldn't need the stay alive ...

 

You are forgetting something. A DCC loco on DC will not start moving until the voltage has been wound up slightly. At low voltages, sound & lights can be on but the loco will stay there until you increase the voltage.

 

DCC sound on DC has limitations though. For a steam modeller, DCC gives you the chance to add things like flange squeal, injectors, blowers & whistles just when you want. Alternative whistles are also a common offering.

The extra control is useful for D&E too: Compressors & blowers but probably more usefully, the ability to leave locos parked with spirax valves clacking away.

 

I find it a bit strange for someone to expect DCC functionality to be available without DCC. It is the extra functionality of DCC which has allowed sound to become usable.

All the solutions so far have incurred the most expensive outlay: decoders for locos. A Powercab will cost less than 2 decoders & give you access to all functions (ignoring TTS because it will not provide sound on DC).

 

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I hadn’t considered that the DCC fitted loco will sit still until the logic voltage has been reached which will be around 5v and this sound may glee available but with a few volts round on the track some locos are going to start moving and creeping along.

 

in essence you are correct, if you want sound then jump into DCC and get all the benefits (awaits the reactions saying there are no benefits ;) )

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5 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

You are forgetting something. A DCC loco on DC will not start moving until the voltage has been wound up slightly. At low voltages, sound & lights can be on but the loco will stay there until you increase the voltage.

 

DCC sound on DC has limitations though. For a steam modeller, DCC gives you the chance to add things like flange squeal, injectors, blowers & whistles just when you want. Alternative whistles are also a common offering.

The extra control is useful for D&E too: Compressors & blowers but probably more usefully, the ability to leave locos parked with spirax valves clacking away.

 

I find it a bit strange for someone to expect DCC functionality to be available without DCC. It is the extra functionality of DCC which has allowed sound to become usable.

All the solutions so far have incurred the most expensive outlay: decoders for locos. A Powercab will cost less than 2 decoders & give you access to all functions (ignoring TTS because it will not provide sound on DC).

 

 

Yes, Pete, that's exactly how a loco can sit but still have lights and sound working. 

 

But surely, if one has a PowerCab, TTS comes back into play because they do work (steamers - after a fashion, diesels a lot better) on DCC.

 

 

3 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

I hadn’t considered that the DCC fitted loco will sit still until the logic voltage has been reached which will be around 5v and this sound may glee available but with a few volts round on the track some locos are going to start moving and creeping along.

 

in essence you are correct, if you want sound then jump into DCC and get all the benefits (awaits the reactions saying there are no benefits ;) )

Iain,

 

It's not the logic voltage that's important (to get sounds and lights the decoder must have already 'woken up') but the motor voltage which is somewhat higher, around 7v for a ZIMO.

 

Another thing which is useful to know is that whilst it might need 3 V for lighting and 5v for sound to start, both will remain active at much lower volts when the DC control knob is turned down.

 

The other thing you haven't considered is that on DC, locos not in operation must be on isolated sections (or fed from a different controller). The creeping of other locos you suggest will therefore not happen.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

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  • 2 weeks later...

Sadly no club access for me to film this, but I can confirm everything Paul says, I took a Zimo equipped class 26 to my club. By trial and error I found the "sweet spot" on the DC controller which would bring the loco to a stand but leave it ticking over, also by tweeking the volts up and down quickly the engine revs would change before any change in speed. If there's away of getting the horn to sound thats a new one on me for DC several non DCC modellers seemed to be quite impressed although they did question how a 26 had got to Dewsbury!

Edited by w124bob
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