Another last great project ....

[Chimer]

Having been making a few suggestions regarding other people’s plans recently, one of which was taken up in its entirety (and I do hope @halsey will forgive me if it doesn’t work out the way I hoped), I thought I might offer a possible contender for my last great project to your tender mercies.  The inspiration came from two recent discussions regarding fiddle yards – one which simply put storage loops behind a wall, which you could see over when you needed too, but blocked the view of them otherwise, and the other which introduced the idea of a scenic cassette, which looks OK when not being used for fiddling.

 

So I thought I might combine the two – have the storage loops in occasional sight but out of reach for fiddling purposes, plus a scenic cassette to enable fiddling and loco exchange when necessary.  Basically, standard rakes of coaches would live in the loops, with access to up and down lines, but could be brought round to the cassette area to change or reverse the loco, or add a couple of coaches (RB and FO, say) to strengthen the rake.  Or a complete shortish train could be dropped in for a brief appearance … the trick being the fiddling could be done without the stock appearing in the main scenic area.  Here’s the result …..

 

 

Otherwise, the thing is my usual concoction of a junction station on a secondary main line with a small goods yard served by trip freights from the inner circuit only, plus a daily trip freight up the branch.  Maybe some industries up the branchline requiring specialist trains (e.g. cement presflos) for freight variety.  Branch passenger trains can terminate and run round (not easily) or go on.  Main line trains in either direction can terminate and reverse (probably rarely).  And I can shunt the yard while trains trundle unattended round the two main lines.

 

For what it’s worth, the time is early 60s and the region London Midland, so I’m on an embankment somewhere, trainspotting aged about 13.  The line might be Blackburn-Hellifield, but with rather more traffic than was actually the case at the time.

 

The green line is the line of the backscene.  The idea is that any hidden points can be reached in emergency by reaching over (and before you all shout at me, the storage loops are accessible from outside the layout).  The grey is a road, at track datum plus 3 to 4 inches everywhere except where it drops down into the goods yard.  The station building is above the platforms.  Other brown rectangles are ideas at view-blocking buildings, and the unconnected tracks bottom right are in a tree-lined cutting, an attempt to fool a viewer into thinking the route doesn’t turn left 90 degrees under the bridge.

 

Basically, the bottom of the layout is for watching the trains go by, with the cassette track masquerading as a lie-by siding or something similar when fiddling is not required.  And the top is for “proper operation”, to a timetabled sequence of services.  Comments welcome .....

Edited July 7, 2020 by Chimer

[DCB]

Looks good. Watch the clearance between walls/ back-scenes and tracks.  Not enough visible railway for my taste. I would put sidings at the short ends of the operating well maybe, and squeeze a bit more visible track at the station and  scenic cassette sections,  but its certainly a good plan which can be worked in a railway like manner.

[Harlequin]

I think the goods yard could be tweaked to make the sidings longer and the splays more deliberate. I suggest running the headshunt parallel to the main lines right up to the bridge/tunnel to make things look more "linear" ("organised"?). The goods shed needs some road beyond it so that you don't have to shunt the whole siding when you've emptied a van - just push it through.

 

You don't want to see the junctions with the fiddle yard but they take up a lot of length which increases the amount of hidden running. It's a conundrum.

 

Is there any value in having the FY loops at the bottom with just the plain track in front? That would make the baseboards more symmetrical, at least...

 

I love the visual trick in the bottom right corner!

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Harlequin

[Joseph_Pestell]

I like the general concept.

 

I would want to bring the right hand end more into view with a double junction taking trains off the continuous run into the hidden sidings. That might need some handbuilt track with a curved diamond.

 

I think that the top platform might be better as a bay. That would allow longer loops in the hidden sidings.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Joseph_Pestell

[Zomboid]

I like the general concept, though I'm not really sure what the scenic cassette achieves in this design. It's genesis was in a scheme to avoid having any non-scenic part to a layout, and in this case you've got plenty of hidden, non-scenic infrastructure.

[Chimer]

 

Thanks folks, all input is much appreciated ...

 

10 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

Looks good. Watch the clearance between walls/ back-scenes and tracks.  Not enough visible railway for my taste. I would put sidings at the short ends of the operating well maybe, and squeeze a bit more visible track at the station and  scenic cassette sections,  but its certainly a good plan which can be worked in a railway like manner.

 

Thanks, I can see the bottom storage loop is too close to the backscene .  I am aiming for two distinctly different scenic areas, not linked by railway.

 

2 hours ago, Harlequin said:

I think the goods yard could be tweaked to make the sidings longer and the splays more deliberate. I suggest running the headshunt parallel to the main lines right up to the bridge/tunnel to make things look more "linear" ("organised"?). The goods shed needs some road beyond it so that you don't have to shunt the whole siding when you've emptied a van - just push it through.

 

You don't want to see the junctions with the fiddle yard but they take up a lot of length which increases the amount of hidden running. It's a conundrum.

 

Is there any value in having the FY loops at the bottom with just the plain track in front? That would make the baseboards more symmetrical, at least...

 

I love the visual trick in the bottom right corner!

 

 

Goods yard tweaks, absolutely, thanks, especially the headshunt .  Why didn't I do that? 

 

Loops at the bottom?  Can't remember if I tried that ...... might give it a go, especially as access is currently by ducking under the station board.

 

Whether I could actually make the cutting trick work visually I don't know - I was wondering about a sliver of mirror at the end.  I'm trying something similar with the placing of the buildings opposite the station forecourt.

 

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

I like the general concept.

 

I would want to bring the right hand end more into view with a double junction taking trains off the continuous run into the hidden sidings. That might need some handbuilt track with a curved diamond.

 

I think that the top platform might be better as a bay. That would allow longer loops in the hidden sidings.

 

As Phil has realised, I definitely don't want to see the junctions, although I know a double junction looks good - and anyway handbuilt track is way beyond me and my ten thumbs .  The top platform is actually the start of the branchline ......

 

56 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

I like the general concept, though I'm not really sure what the scenic cassette achieves in this design. It's genesis was in a scheme to avoid having any non-scenic part to a layout, and in this case you've got plenty of hidden, non-scenic infrastructure.

 

The cassette enables me to fiddle without reaching over the backscene to the storage loops, or ducking under to get at the loops from the outside.  Scenic so it's not an eyesore when I'm trainspotting on that side of the layout.

 

Ta muchly, everyone.  No show-stoppers yet, anyway (except planning permission) ..... 

 

Chris

[pirouets]

As someone who is putting a fiddle yard behind a back scene a couple of questions

 

- have you thought about using set track points off scene as you can open up longer storage lines? Obviously that means code 100 for the fiddle yard.

- will you be having multiple trains on a single road? If so how do you get visibility so you can stop things in time.

- could you flip the design so the station is opposite the fiddle yard so it narrows the board with the fiddle yard? 

 

Glad to see you spotted using the space at the sides of the layout for short storage sidings. I realised that after i had laid everything so i have not been quite as efficent in use of space.

[Chimer]

3 hours ago, pirouets said:

As someone who is putting a fiddle yard behind a back scene a couple of questions

 

- have you thought about using set track points off scene as you can open up longer storage lines? Obviously that means code 100 for the fiddle yard.

- will you be having multiple trains on a single road? If so how do you get visibility so you can stop things in time.

- could you flip the design so the station is opposite the fiddle yard so it narrows the board with the fiddle yard? 

 

Glad to see you spotted using the space at the sides of the layout for short storage sidings. I realised that after i had laid everything so i have not been quite as efficent in use of space.

 

Thanks for asking ....

 

No, although it will all be Code 100 and the hidden curves will mostly be set-track (R3 and R4), I wouldn't use set-track points - they turn too sharply (<18" radius) and diverge too much (22.5 degrees v 12 for Streamline).  And I'm happy with the length of the loops anyway (as much as you can ever be happy with the length of anything in this game).

 

Not planning for multiple trains in a single loop, and the idea is that I can see over the backscene when I need to, which will usually be when I'm parking something.  But you've made me realise I'm going to have to make sure I can clearly see the nearest loop line, so I may come back to my original thought of no backscene there, just a 4"-ish high railway boundary wall.  So special thanks for that thought.

 

Flipping was something @Harlequin suggested.  But it makes it impossible to get from the storage loops to the scenic cassette for fiddling purposes without running through the station, unless I run a single hidden line round behind the station.  I might just try that, to see how much it impacts on other things I like.  10 mins later - not really a goer!!

 

The 4 spurs into the corners were a bit of an afterthought.  The ones at the top might be fanned for loco storage, the ones at the bottom look DMU-length at first glance ...

[Harlequin]

You know, it strikes me that all of these ideas are fighting each other and potentially compromising the end result!

 

If you had access to your fiddle yard you wouldn't need your scenic fiddle cassette. And there would be no problem with trains appearing on stage before you're ready. And there wouldn't be any difficulties seeing what you're doing over a wall. (If you can see over the wall, then is it really doing anything useful?)

If the main lines ran through the FY you wouldn't need the tricky junctions. Then there would be much less need for hidden running.

 

Wouldn't it be simpler, and better all round, to just do the conventional thing and have a double track loop that is 3/4 scenic and 1/4 FY loops that are open to the operating well? (The only thing you need to hide then is the branch line exit.) That would use the valuable space more efficiently.

 

You might think of that solution as boring and commonplace but I would say it's elegant and classical. Then the focus would be more on the model itself.

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Harlequin

[Zomboid]

Having the two scenes does allow a wider scope for different things to be modelled than the traditional arrangement. The plain line section could be 5 miles away in a completely different setting to the station in its urban location.

 

It's very easy to stick to the conventional template, but I'd pursue the different approach just to ask questions of it.

[Harlequin]

3 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Having the two scenes does allow a wider scope for different things to be modelled than the traditional arrangement. The plain line section could be 5 miles away in a completely different setting to the station in its urban location.

You can still do that with the conventional template, of course. Just insert a scenic break of the size, form and position you want - you're not forced into a particular size, form or position by a complex track plan.

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, Chimer said:

 

Thanks for asking ....

 

No, although it will all be Code 100 and the hidden curves will mostly be set-track (R3 and R4), I wouldn't use set-track points - they turn too sharply (<18" radius) and diverge too much (22.5 degrees v 12 for Streamline).  And I'm happy with the length of the loops anyway (as much as you can ever be happy with the length of anything in this game).

 

Not planning for multiple trains in a single loop, and the idea is that I can see over the backscene when I need to, which will usually be when I'm parking something.  But you've made me realise I'm going to have to make sure I can clearly see the nearest loop line, so I may come back to my original thought of no backscene there, just a 4"-ish high railway boundary wall.  So special thanks for that thought.

 

Flipping was something @Harlequin suggested.  But it makes it impossible to get from the storage loops to the scenic cassette for fiddling purposes without running through the station, unless I run a single hidden line round behind the station.  I might just try that, to see how much it impacts on other things I like.  10 mins later - not really a goer!!

 

The 4 spurs into the corners were a bit of an afterthought.  The ones at the top might be fanned for loco storage, the ones at the bottom look DMU-length at first glance ...

 

CCTV cameras are cheap as chips these days.

[Chimer]

Well, it's nice to generate a debate .....

I've done lots of more conventional plans, this was indeed an attempt to do something different, sparked by a couple of ideas that have come up recently.  I didn't know if it would work, and am quite pleased with the way it came out.  It ticks my "musts" and a lot of the "druthers".  My manual dexterity is pants, always was, ain't going to change, so I really do struggle getting bogies properly on the rails, even using Code 100.  I therefore lean strongly towards the use of cassettes in some form, as what I have in mind is going to include quite a bit of remarshalling passenger rakes (the 8 car rake just has to be the 5 car rake with temporary additions). 

 

The "scenic cassette" idea means I don't have to write off one long side of the layout to a fiddle yard, as that "rural" side should still look presentable when I'm trainspotting in between fiddles.  And I do like the idea of two apparently unconnected railway areas, rural and urban.

 

Whatever, like all its predecessors it'll probably never get built, but it was fun in the planning.

[Chimer]

52 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

CCTV cameras are cheap as chips these days.

 

Mmm ... think that's a new trick this old dog may have to pass on.  I'm trying to nerve myself up to think DCC (but please don't anyone bother trying to convince me, there are already more than enough threads on that issue elsewhere ).

[Joseph_Pestell]

25 minutes ago, Chimer said:

 

Mmm ... think that's a new trick this old dog may have to pass on.  I'm trying to nerve myself up to think DCC (but please don't anyone bother trying to convince me, there are already more than enough threads on that issue elsewhere ).

 

Seriously, they don't even need to be wired in. Great way of seeing what is happening in the hidden sidings with a small screen next to your control panel.

 

I think that the one I have cost about £120 from Screwfix and includes 4 cameras as well as the monitor.

[Harlequin]

39 minutes ago, Chimer said:

Whatever, like all its predecessors it'll probably never get built, but it was fun in the planning.

Don't stop now!

 

[Harlequin]

Brainwave!

 

A folded figure of eight arrangement would give you increased running length, the ability to have a scenic run in front of (or behind) the fiddle yard and would allow the main circuits to pass through the fiddle yard without those 'orrible junctions.

 

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

14 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Brainwave!

 

A folded figure of eight arrangement would give you increased running length, the ability to have a scenic run in front of (or behind) the fiddle yard and would allow the main circuits to pass through the fiddle yard without those 'orrible junctions.

 

 

YES!

[Chimer]

10 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Brainwave!

 

A folded figure of eight arrangement would give you increased running length, the ability to have a scenic run in front of (or behind) the fiddle yard and would allow the main circuits to pass through the fiddle yard without those 'orrible junctions.

 

 

 

Mmmm .... gradients .... .  But worth a look, undoubtedly.  Might take a while, though.

[Harlequin]

In very rough terms, maybe something like this:

 

I reckon the steepest gradient would be about 1 in 50.

 

 

[Chimer]

A month later ....... 

 

What Phil's idea wouldn't have done was provide me with somewhere I could easily fiddle about with, especially, coach formations, which was the idea behind the "scenic cassette".  But I was reminded of something I'd played around with before, when I wasn't frightened by gradients .....

 

This is the upper level, at +4".  At the top, a very similar station to the last iteration, and at the bottom, a fairly implausible junction arrangement where a double track mainline runs parallel to a single track with the ability to cross from one to the other.  The single track then descends, out of sight, from both ends of the embankment (as you may remember, I can get at the top of the layout from the outside in case of trouble).  The colour changes after every inch of descent .... There should be a link at this level from the branch platform road to the point on the single track line just inside the tunnel bottom right, but a crucial bit of track seems to have gone missing!

 

 

And here's the lower level, with the main fiddle yard in full view in front of the main line embankment, a couple of extra loops for particularly long rakes hiding under the goods yard, and (obviously) the same multi-coloured tracks climbing to the upper level.

 

 

I think this arrangement of the climbs, out of the line of sight, may be what was referred to as an "external helix" in Phil's helix thread.  I first saw it suggested in the Modeller two or three years ago.  The grades here come in at 1.4% (around 1 in 70).

 

The brown lines on the top pic are part of a first attempt to make the scenery work, using mostly roads (at a height of +7") to disappear the main lines before the bends get too tight to be seen.  I stopped work on this when the pessimistic part of me decided I could never cope with the woodwork (someone like  @gordon s could knock it up in a morning) but then thought I might put it out to see what anyone thinks of the general idea.

 

All yours ...

 

Chris

Edited August 7, 2020 by Chimer

[Harlequin]

Hi Chris,

 

This is very clever!

 

If you could ease the curves on the top level roundy-round circuits you'd get more visible running. Maybe then hide some or all of the implausible junction instead. Or at least obscure it from normal viewpoints.

 

If you move the position where the green descending line on the left crosses the low level line until a bit further around then you'd have a few more inches of width available for the top level circuits.

 

 

Edited August 10, 2020 by Harlequin

[Zomboid]

The bottom scene, if made to look like a 4 track line (the outer two can revert to single in the tunnels) could look like a pair of fast - slow/ slow - fast junctions. Which is hardly an improbable arrangement.

 

It's also reminiscent of that idiotic set of hidden junctions from the Minories thread.

[Zomboid]

I'm sure you didn't need me to draw a diagram, but this seems like an entirely plausible arrangement for that area.

 

Vertical lines are the scenic breaks. Obviously.

[Chimer]

Now why the Bjorn Bjorg didn't I think of that?