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The EWS livery, Success of failure


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Do freight customers care the tiniest bit about the colour of locos? I strongly suspect that they don’t when evaluating bids.

 

Is a recognisable brand image important? Yes, probably even in the niche world of rail freight.

 

Does smart-looking machinery help staff pride in the job and hence quality of service? Yes.

 

Did the EWS livery hit the spot on the latter two points? I think so.

 

And the sector liveries? Yes, probably they did too.

 

In short, nothing to choose between the two, except on basis of personal taste, and I liked the EWS one on that basis.

 

Now, who bears responsibility for the various Colas accidents with a paint brush?

 

PS: I’d be fairly hacked-off if I’d spent ages designing a neat set of liveries with logos and plaques, then some yank came over here and slapped his paint all over my work. Might that explain the sentiments?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Nearholmer
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As someone who thinks that the Roundel freight liveries were the best ever seen on main line locos in this country (especially the depot plaques idea - I've still got my 'Tinsley' mug) I can't agree that the EWS livery as a failure. I don't like it, but that's my personal view as someone who thinks deisels just look wrong in maroon (I don't like West Coast's livery either) but that doesn't make it a failure.

 

1. Applying a US livery - it was a US company, why would they not ? It's basically a stripe, hardly a US phenomenon

2. Embracing an inappropriate name - possibly, but there have been odder - all of the contracting companies in many sectors for a start (Colas, Serco, QinetiQ, Group 4 etc). At least you knew it was a railway company and it went to England, Scotland and Wales, surely it would have been more inappropriate to call it "Wisconsin" on it's UK locos.

3. Inviting enthusiasts to design the company signature/brand; - stakeholder engagement. Doesn't always work (Boaty McBoatface) but you don't have to use any of the suggestions if they're crap.

4. Not having clear design criteria - surely (1) is the answer to that - "Here's the Wisconsin livery, do that".

5. Not researching customer views. - Only valid if you've only got one customer or assets dedicated to one customer surely ? (WY Metro DMUs for example). I doubt the road haulage sector asks its customers if it's ok to paint the lorries a different colour unless they're in the customer's livery to start with.

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4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

PS: I’d be fairly hacked-off if I’d spent ages designing a neat set of liveries with logos and plaques, then some Yank came over here and slapped his paint all over my work. Might that explain the sentiments?

I wanted to mark your post as 'funny' - but that only applied to this bit; the rest is a 'like', but I bet there's a lot of truth in this bit!!
The EWS Maroon does look to me to be slightly brighter than the Wisconsin/Soo Maroon - I don't think they used exactly the same shade over here.

Or is that just me??

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1381334

 

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I was never that excited by EWS colours, but it worked because it:

1. Was easily identifiable as EWS to staff, customers and enthusiasts, and

2. Provided protection against the locomotives rusting away into powder.

 

I'm not sure what else a paint job is supposed to achieve. Everything else you could say about it is subjective.

 

Might be different in the passenger sector where people make choices on more emotional levels, but I doubt the G&W colours have cost Freightliner a single customer, and nor will DB Red have won them any custom, given that the decisions are made on business criteria (admittedly by humans).

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3 hours ago, Zomboid said:

 nor will DB Red have won them any custom, given that the decisions are made on business criteria (admittedly by humans).

Exactly. If you get awarded contracts on the grounds that you have splendid red engines your customer is not going to be in business long. It might be different if your fleet had a reputation for looking decrepit with half the undercoat and rusty bare metal showing. 

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We're all subject to subconscious perceptions so it's possible that the general impression given by a given livery could subtly influence even those aiming to make entirely objective choices. It's not always obvious what can give us what impressions about the people and organisations we deal with, yet they influence us (does that company's image make them look serious, cheap and nasty, inflexible, reliable etc.?) Easy to underestimate the impact of that I think.

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I always have thought that what they are trying to project is the key and image is everything.  From annoying paint schemes to TV adverts which irritate us (Go Compare is one example).  Even though we might be sick of seeing them, they stay in the back of the mind and when we need to do something, they come back from our subconscious.  
 

I remember when the Class 66’s first arrived, all sparkly and new, I was standing at a station and several people commented that how good they looked against the tired 37’s, 47, 56’s etc.

Edited by jools1959
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9 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

The EWS Maroon does look to me to be slightly brighter than the Wisconsin/Soo Maroon - I don't think they used exactly the same shade over here.

Or is that just me??

Not just you! The 66s are a different colour to the UK repaints. Presumably the stuff in the EMD factory is the standard Wisconsin Central stuff, but in the UK it's the nearest match a supplier could make. 2 paints can be exactly the same spec but there will be slight variations on shade from the two manufacturers.

 

Jo

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1 hour ago, Steadfast said:

Not just you! The 66s are a different colour to the UK repaints. Presumably the stuff in the EMD factory is the standard Wisconsin Central stuff, but in the UK it's the nearest match a supplier could make. 2 paints can be exactly the same spec but there will be slight variations on shade from the two manufacturers.

 

Jo


My father was spraying a car black and he accidentally ran out of paint, as the store was closed he had to wait until the morning.  Got a exactly same paint and batch number, it all went well until it dried and to his horror, you could make out the shade difference between the two.  Goes to show that even the same paint, batch number etc can be different.

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23 hours ago, YesTor said:

Okay, the symbols may not have necessarily been immediately obvious to the travelling public, but once you realize what they represent it's pretty obvious? 

 

Coal? Perhaps.

 

The others?  Random colours and shapes with no meaning.

 

Which is why anytime I see them I need to look them up.

 

23 hours ago, YesTor said:

And the whole concept of depot plaques, with their localised symbols, as has been well-documented, gave reason for depots to take pride in their machines

 

Depot plaques - great idea, but not really part of the livery as such.

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On 10/07/2020 at 00:47, mdvle said:

Coal? Perhaps.

 

The others?  Random colours and shapes with no meaning.

 

Depot plaques - great idea, but not really part of the livery as such.

 

An interesting viewpoint.  Still, my recollection of the story is that Roundel were asked to come up with a cohesive image for the BR Railfreight sector.  The depot plaques were all designed at the same time specifically to be applied to the triple-grey liveried locos.  To my eye these tie-in amazingly well with the bodyside symbols and in particular the aforementioned Coal sector logo.  To be fair, if that isn't "part of the livery", then I'm not sure what is?  It's all part-and-parcel of a consistent brand image:

 

60093 Jack Stirk Saltley Depot. 20-03-1993

  


Branding/graphic design in general is particularly intriguing; and with respect to the symbols, to me the Coal, Petroleum and Construction sectors are pretty self-explanatory - chunks of coal, the wavy lines representing liquid, the cubes represent building blocks.  I'd agree that perhaps the Distribution and General Railfreight are perhaps less immediately obvious, but if we think about it there are lots of iconic logos and branding out there that do not necessarily convey their obvious intention at first glance - think of the ICI logo, Blue Circle Cement, the Olympic flag, Nike, Bird's Eye, Coca-Cola, Cadbury's - in fact there are likely more slightly obtuse-looking logos flying around than self-explanatory ones, yet all of the above are/were highly successful brands/corporate images in their own right.  Whilst I'd agree that an immediately obvious logo is likely preferable for many a designer, it is not always essential in order to create what might in time prove to be regarded as a 'successful', or indeed seductive brand. 

 

To bring this back on topic, and looking at the EWS branding, I do actually feel that the main logo is a great design, but in it's raw form does it really convey anything at all about railways, and to a layman what does "EWS" on it's own mean?  Egg White & Sausages, perhaps?  Without casting a glance at "English, Welsh & Scottish Railway" on the cabside of any loco, well, it arguably means very little.  But when all is said and done the triple 'Beastie' logo is pretty iconic, or highly memorable at the very least and a superb piece of design:

 

EWS logo.

 

EWS

 

ews logo

 


An interesting subject...

 

Best

Al

Edited by YesTor
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20 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:
On 08/07/2020 at 08:11, Kylestrome said:

although, if a logo needs explanation it has totally failed IMO

Absolutely. Nail + head = hit!!

 

One half of me agrees, however the less reactionary side of me feels that sometimes something a little more abstract can have equal, and in many cases an even more powerful impact.  Have a think about all of the following logos, again all immensely successful brands in their own right, but if being totally honest none of the logos convey immediately what the organisation is necessarily selling/promoting:

 

  • British Telecom
  • Royal Mail
  • Nike
  • Amazon
  • FedEx
  • Coca-Cola
  • Pepsi
  • Kellogg's
  • Heinz
  • Dulux
  • ICI
  • Cadbury's
  • The Olympic flag
  • The Labour Party logo


...and I'm sure there are many, many more.  In short, is it necessarily a case of 'slap-bang, in ya face' always being best? 
 

 

10 hours ago, Reorte said:

We're all subject to subconscious perceptions so it's possible that the general impression given by a given livery could subtly influence even those aiming to make entirely objective choices. It's not always obvious what can give us what impressions about the people and organisations we deal with, yet they influence us (does that company's image make them look serious, cheap and nasty, inflexible, reliable etc.?) Easy to underestimate the impact of that I think.

 

Exactly, the subtle, abstract, obtuse can very often have a far more insidious and longer-lasting effect on our psyche.  Whether any of this is appropriate to Railfreight logos past and present is anyone's guess, but it's highly intriguing nonetheless!  :)

 

Al

Edited by YesTor
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In a rail context, there's not much out there more powerful and long lived than the Union Pacific yellow scheme. And that is essentially yellow paint with the name in a specific sans serif font. It's managed to last since the UP were introducing diesels until now without looking dated, which is getting on for 90 years. There may have been minor tweaks over the decades, but it's fundamentally the same as it was.

 

Another example is of course the BR arrows of indecision. Its use has changed a bit since privatisation, but I can't imagine it ever falling out of use as the symbol of the UK rail industry.

 

Car companies generally seem to achieve the same - BMW, Mercedes Benz, Ford, Citroen and many others could be said to have iconic logos.

 

A lot of the long lived schemes that @YesTor mentioned have managed to last without going out of fashion (not sure about BT though, they've had several logos since the 80s). Had EWS lasted then I don't see why their corporate image of the "3 Beasties" logo, maroon and yellow would have dated or needed significant changes to continue to present a smart image to the world as we enter the 2020s. Maybe a tweak here or there, but the basics of the scheme are sound enough.

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Success, I'd say.  Due mainly to the glacial pace of repainting its assets, DB has singularly failed to stamp its brand on the ex-EWS fleet, 66s especially.  To the extent that I just had to remind myself that EWS no longer exists!

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4 hours ago, YesTor said:

and to a layman what does "EWS" on it's own mean?

To a layman what would most of the Railway 'initials' mean? The famous ones like GWR & LNER might be recognised, but little else?

Even as a railway enthusiast myself, when it comes to most of the Pre-Grouping Companies I don't have a clue about a lot of them, partly of course due to the fact most of them are nearly 100 years out of date; but then as I don't follow the modern scene that much even some of today's companies would be a mystery to me, & I couldn't say if they have a logo, or what it is.

 

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I wouldn't label the EWS livery as a failure.

They did adapt it a bit to suit different loco designs. I do have a criticism, though: it seems to me that there was a bit too much maroon, particularly on upper surfaces (roofs and hood tops) where dirt is known to accumulate and washing plants don't reach. My thoughts would have been to add grey or black roofs/top surfaces, although that would have complicated the painting process a little. Have a look at the unique EWS liveried class 31 and 33 locos, then picture them with (maybe) a dark grey roof treatment.

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15 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Exactly. If you get awarded contracts on the grounds that you have splendid red engines your customer is not going to be in business long. It might be different if your fleet had a reputation for looking decrepit with half the undercoat and rusty bare metal showing. 

The numbers will always be the important part, but branding gets your firm a chance to present its' numbers.

 

Granted, if I've got two hundred thousand tonnes of coal to move from Gascoigne Wood to Didcot, I'm never really going to look anywhere other then the railway and due diligence means that I'll send out the RFQ to all the usual candidates. For that kind of work, it really doesn't matter what colour the trains are painted, as long as they pick up and drop off the load at the appointed times.

 

On the other hand, if I've got ten containers of widgets to be moved from Motherwell to Birmingham, my normal instinct might very well be to use a road haulier. If EWS (or whoever) can get me to notice them, I can request a brochure. If I like what I see in the brochure, I can invite them to submit a bid. And if it turns out to be a competitive tender, the branding helps create an image - a bold and dynamic brand will be treated very differently to a conservative, safe brand.

 

Of course, an American department store owner did once say 'Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted; the trouble is, I don't know which half'.

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5 hours ago, YesTor said:

One half of me agrees, however the less reactionary side of me feels that sometimes something a little more abstract can have equal, and in many cases an even more powerful impact.  Have a think about all of the following logos, again all immensely successful brands in their own right, but if being totally honest none of the logos convey immediately what the organisation is necessarily selling/promoting:

 

  • British Telecom
  • Royal Mail
  • Nike
  • Amazon
  • FedEx
  • Coca-Cola
  • Pepsi
  • Kellogg's
  • Heinz
  • Dulux
  • ICI
  • Cadbury's
  • The Olympic flag
  • The Labour Party logo


...and I'm sure there are many, many more.  In short, is it necessarily a case of 'slap-bang, in ya face' always being best?

 

My original statement ("if a logo needs explanation it has totally failed IMO") was rather 'black & white' and you are quite right that there are many well known corporate identities whose origins are not so obvious, and may have been lost in the mists of time.

 

One thing I would point out, however, is that your list includes examples of logomarks, logotypes and mixtures thereof. To understand the differences, if you're interested, here is a very good webpage that explains them better than I could:

https://en.99designs.de/blog/logo-branding/logotype-vs-logomark-vs-logo/

 

David

Edited by Kylestrome
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Logos don't have to mean anything to be successful.

 

Taking the car examples I cited, Ford is a logotype of course, BMW's white & blue quadrants I think might once have meant something to do with propellors, but any meaning Mercedes Benz's 3 pointed star or Citroen's chevrons might have had is sufficiently out of public consciousness as to be meaningless.

 

And if course the BR arrows of indecision doesn't convey any obvious meaning, but everyone knows what it signifies.

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22 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Logos don't have to mean anything to be successful.

 

Taking the car examples I cited, Ford is a logotype of course, BMW's white & blue quadrants I think might once have meant something to do with propellors, but any meaning Mercedes Benz's 3 pointed star or Citroen's chevrons might have had is sufficiently out of public consciousness as to be meaningless.

 

And if course the BR arrows of indecision doesn't convey any obvious meaning, but everyone knows what it signifies.

 

You are indeed correct on BMW's logo (impression of propeller blades) as they were noted 

for their aero engines.

I have no knowledge of the 3 pointed star, but Citroen's chevrons represent the gear teeth!

Straight cut gears are efficient, but noisy; whereas bevel cut gears are quiet, but  because of

angle of the gears, loses efficiency due to the sideways force.

Chevron cut gears are both quiet, and efficient (the angular gear cut counters itself), but are

not cheap or easy to manufacturer.

 

The double arrows are meant to indicate both directions of travel on the tracks, possibly to

suggest getting you there, and back! It is a common theme/style of logo across Europe, and 

beyond, including Amtrak.

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I sometimes have to remind myself that Wisconsin Central only owned and ran EWS for a short period of 5 years, from the mid 90's to 2001.

That's 19 years ago and quite a few locos are still carrying the remnants of that initial livery.

 

Subsequently, Canadian National owned EWS for 6 years, before the DB take over in 2007.

 

 

.

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This is an interesting thread, opening out discussion into logos (logomarks and logotypes).  As a teacher, one of the standby "reward" activities has always been 'whose logo?' either with whole images or parts thereof.  The whole idea of branding becomes far more apparent when dealing with younger adults/children - brand recognition is frighteningly vast, even at young ages!

 

Even more enlightening are lessons designed to have children come up with their own logo designs: trying to create something that is recognisable, memorable and also represents what it is about is harder than you think!  Many years ago, I had a small music typesetting business "Tempus Fugit" ... I chose the latin name "time flies" because music is about sound organised over time, I was doing computerised music typesetting which had time over hand production, and lastly time flies because such work is usually to a tight deadline. The logo, designed for me by a retired graphics design lecturer, was of a sundial with a stylised "tf" as the central upright and the shadow thrown being a treble clef.  At the time, I was pretty pleased with myself and thought it was all the dogs danglers...

 

Of course, it wasn't! The logo was pretty but overcomplicated, and the name simply didn't convey what I was doing!  All round failure!  For my original company name - Advanced Music Processing Services ... AMPS - I designed my own logo: simple italicised block capitals AMPS superimposed over five parallel lines (representing a music stave) which morphed into an arrow head pointing to the right.  In simple block colour (red - energy, fire, action).  Problem was, another company in the music industry (appropriately selling guitar amps!) already had the AMPS brand!  

 

I admire those logos that have meaning behind them - the arrows of indecision, the olympic rings; getting kids to think about the meaning behind logos is also an eye opener!  Personally I think the Audi four interlinked circles (to represent four wheel drive) is sublime.

 

Steve S

 

PS

To keep this railway orientated, I think the railfreight livery on the Class 60 logo is also sublime; likewise the BR livery applied to the HST class, both original and Executive/Swallow: the trailing line of yellow from the nose always makes me think of speed, the after-image burnt upon the eye of a bright colour or light passing by at speed.  I think Virgin et al missed the point when their HSTs lost that aspect of the livery design.

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