Large DCC layout powering

[reddragon]

I have a large layout which I am converting from DC to DCC. I am building 5 separate loops of track about 50m long, plus sidings & depots.

 

So far, I have one pair of tracks connected to a single Hornby Elite, covering about half the loop, 2x 25m sections and plan to add a power & signal booster for the other half, 2x 25m sections to complete 2 of the loops. For the other 3 sections, which are electrically isolated from the first 2, should I use a separate Elite or add several cheaper Select controllers, with signal & power boosters? I also intend to use Railmaster to control points / signals etc.

 

So far I have converted 6 locos, so no power issue yet, but as I gradually convert the railway it will become an issue!

 

Am I on the right path or are there better options?

Should I consider trying a different system on other tracks or  just stick to my choice? 

[WIMorrison]

I would dare to suggest that a more modern system than those offered by Hornby would be more suitable for a large layout, especially as you hint at automation which Railmaster doesn't really provide.

 

A bit more information on the number of locos, complexity of layout, number of operators, types of throttles, expansibility, etc might enable more informed responses - currently you could get answers supporting every DCC system that is available on the market place.

 

The advice I would give is to avoid Bachmann and Hornby for decoders and controllers if you want good control and reliability.

[Dagworth]

You only need a single master station whatever the size of layout. So one Elite and boosters if needed (although, as above, I'd really look at a "better" DCC system from one of the companies that specialise in DCC equipment) 

 

Andi

 

 

[reddragon]

I have around 60 locos. half of which I need to replace as they cannot be converted or are not worth it. I will probably stay below 100 locos.

 

I am getting gaugemaster decoders, as they seem to be quite good although I have 4 Hornby ones that work.

 

I have kept the layout fairly simple as in separated sections, but complex track layouts within a section.

 

3 operators, controlling 2 locos at any one time and I do not want automation.

[reddragon]

46 minutes ago, Dagworth said:

You only need a single master station whatever the size of layout. So one Elite and boosters if needed (although, as above, I'd really look at a "better" DCC system from one of the companies that specialise in DCC equipment) 

 

Andi

 

 

 

Everyone seems to claim that their system is 'better', but most look to me anyway to be quite dated. There is probably a need for something more modern across the board on DCC control in my opinion.

[WIMorrison]

There are lots of good DCC systems around that are modern and very far from outdated, unlike the Hornby or Gaugemaster offerings. 

 

Personally I wouldn't fit anything from Guagemaster onto my layout - their DCC system is a rebadged system that was out of date when it was first rebadged then sold by them and I most definitely would not use any of their rebadged decoders in any of my locos as I want good, reliable control.

 

Stick to the original equipment manufacturers for both your controller and the decoders not rebadged, you will get much better products and generally for cheaper as there isn't a a rebadging premium built into the price.

[Oldddudders]

28 minutes ago, reddragon said:

 

Everyone seems to claim that their system is 'better', but most look to me anyway to be quite dated. There is probably a need for something more modern across the board on DCC control in my opinion.

Could you specify what seems dated about present systems? Is it the operator interface, the base unit/console or some other feature? My observation is that there is a very wide range of products in terms of appearance - but DCC is what it is, so they must all conform to the NMRA basic requirements. 

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 hours ago, reddragon said:

...So far, I have one pair of tracks connected to a single Hornby Elite, covering about half the loop, 2x 25m sections and plan to add a power & signal booster for the other half, 2x 25m sections to complete 2 of the loops. 
 

For the other 3 sections, which are electrically isolated from the first 2, should I use a separate Elite or add several cheaper Select controllers, with signal & power boosters? I also intend to use Railmaster to control points / signals etc........

 

DCC operates as a “system”.

The system oversees the operation of the whole layout.

The key component part of the DCC system is the Command Station, or brains of the system.

There can only be one Command Station.

Track Power is provided by what is known as a Power Station, otherwise referred to as a Booster.

The Command Station feeds DCC commands to the Power Station, which in simple terms, amplifies the low power DCC signal to track power levels.

 

Every DCC system has at least one Power Station, or Booster.

Your Hornby Elite packages the command station and booster altogether inside it’s console style housing.

The magic is, that additional boosters can be added, to provide more and evenly distributed power and DCC signals to different sections of the layout.

 

From your description, what you need is a system architecture that uses a single command station and a number of boosters (an unspecified number at this stage), each feeding their own sections of the layout.
Depending on which DCC system you end up using, there may, or may not, be an initial booster combined with the command station in the same physical housing. Additional boosters can then be added, as required and as the particular make and model of DCC system allows.

 

You could use RailMaster to control the points, even if you choose to buy a different DCC system and keep the Elite just for point and accessory control.

You could also have similar “glass screen”  control of points and routes using another DCC system linked to a different computer control software package.

There’s also the option of a “hardware” control panel, using physical buttons or switches on a mimic panel, to control points and routes via DCC.

This could operate along with and as part of the DCC system, or as a separate, standalone DCC operation.

 

So going back to your question, no you shouldn’t consider multiple DCC systems, as in additional Elites and Selects.

The exception being, that Selects can be used as additional throttles with the primary Elite control system.

 

I won’t suggest buying any particular alternative DCC system, but I agree with previous comments, that the Elite is really not best suited to the size and scale of the layout and operation you have described.

 

 

 

.

 

Edited July 10, 2020 by Ron Ron Ron

[Andymsa]

Hi,

 

I have something similar to what your building but as others have said I would stay away from the Gaugemaster stuff for the size of layout your planning. There is so much to this topic there is no one right direction you can take. If you want to discuss further your welcome to PM me

 

 

[Donw]

Hi

It is necesary to keep separate DCCs apart trains cannot simply cross from one into another, it is also unecessary so using a single command station is the way forward.  The best system achitecture for a big layout is command station feeding boosters with the booster output split into Districts with District Cut outs so that a problem doesn't shut the whole system down.  The system is modular you can buy or make one command station which may have a small booster built in. This will get things running. Then add a second bigger booster and so on .  Each booster will control an area of track from its own track bus. All booster should be connected so they are in phase. This is so where the booster sections meet a loo crossing  will bidge rails at the same polarity.

You may also have another bus for handsets this is totally separate from the track bus and only one is needed for the whole layout.

Don

[WIMorrison]

You can combine multiple DCC systems on one layout by using a sniffer bus, but that means your command station has to support a sniffer bus which Hornby, Bachmann and Gaugemaster (among many) do not.

[melmerby]

As others have said.

Look around for DCC systems.

IMHO Don't consider Hornby, Bachmann MRC/Gaugemaster and such and go for someone that specialises in systems.

IMHO the European brands seem to be more at the cutting edge than the North American ones.

Decoders: stick to Zimo or Lenz, don't bother with the Hornby, Bachmann, Gaugemaster, Lais or anything like that.

[Nigelcliffe]

Just to add to the thread.   The layout described (5 loops) is not "large" on the grand scheme of things.  

 

The layout needs one command station, and perhaps a second booster (though I'd start without, just wire it so the booster can be added).   It does need district cut-outs to limit problems to sub-sections of the layout.  

 

And I concur with the comments about not having Hornby, Bachmann or Gaugemaster near the top of my list of brands to buy DCC elements from. 

 

 

 

[JimFin]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

Decoders: stick to Zimo or Lenz, don't bother with the Hornby, Bachmann, Gaugemaster, Lais or anything like that.

I thought the current Bachmann decoders were made by Zimo and the older ones by ESU?

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

...IMHO Don't consider Hornby, Bachmann MRC/Gaugemaster and such and go for someone that specialises in systems.....

 

While I agree with the sentiment, you have made a wildly inaccurate statement there.

Although I certainly wouldn't recommend it in this case, note that Bachmann's Dynamis Ultima system is made by ESU, who most definitely specialise in DCC systems.

Similarly, MRC have a long history of specialising in DCC systems, going back some 20 years. 

 

It might have been more accurate to have phrased your words in a similar fashion to Nigel's post.

 

1 hour ago, Nigelcliffe said:

...... I concur with the comments about not having Hornby, Bachmann or Gaugemaster near the top of my list of brands to buy DCC elements from. 

 

.

[WIMorrison]

Some are made by Zimo, but they are not updateable easily as they don't all identify as Zimo plus Zimo wont provide any warranty or support - also buying Zimo branded decoders is often cheaper than the Bachmann rebadged versions 

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

......Decoders: stick to Zimo or Lenz, don't bother with the Hornby, Bachmann, Gaugemaster, Lais or anything like that.

 

Bachmann's decoders are identical, straight re-branded decoders from Zimo and ESU.

They have previously sourced their earlier decoders from Lenz, ESU and Soundtraxx.

You've basically said don't use Zimo, but use Zimo instead ?????

 

 

.

Edited July 11, 2020 by Ron Ron Ron

[melmerby]

1 minute ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Bachmann's decoders are identical, straight re-branded decoders from Zimo and ESU.

They have previously sourced their earlier decoders from Lenz, ESU and Soundtraxx.

You've basically said don't use Zimo, but use Zimo instead ?????

 

 

.

C'mon you're splitting hairs, same with the DCC systems.

You only get a very limited range of Bachmann branded decoders, whereas you can usually get decoders that are suitable for anything and everything from the manufacturers themselves.

 

BTW I didn't know they were now using Zimo as they don't seem to be able to choose a brand and stick to it!

Should've spotted the Bachmann Next 18 decoder was a MX618N18

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

C'mon you're splitting hairs, same with the DCC systems.....

 

I don't think I'm splitting hairs.

Please don't take offence, it isn't intended and I don't mean to sound stroppy or argumentative either, but it does concern me that far too often people post inaccurate sweeping judgements on here.

 

For example, the occasionally repeated maxim, not to buy DCC systems made by (or for)  "model" or "toy" train manufacturers.

That would clearly suggest that people should not buy a DCC system from Lenz, ESU or Roco, who all produce RTR models and in the case of Roco, who also produce children's toy trains alongside their more "adult orientated" product lines.

 

Incidentally, Roco have a range of DCC decoders...all produced by Zimo. Previously they bought their decoders from Lenz.

 

 

.

Edited July 11, 2020 by Ron Ron Ron

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Seventy decoders on power, and typically eight running at any time, and my original purchase of a 72W output system has no trouble. All the locos have modern can motors drawing circa 250mA when working hard. (No sound decoders, smoke generators, Christmas tree worthy arrays of lights, so it is just the motors and decoders.) Provided the bus wires are decent copper section, the power loss around the layout is minimal: I haven't tested that further than 30m mind, using ancient 15A rated twin and earth that was in the barn and 'available' for repurposing.

[Donw]

Do calm down a bit. Most of the comments have been made in good faith. If certain manufacturers buy in their stuff and have in the past changed supplier, it is not unreasonable to be concened that they may change again making additions to the system difficult. Hence I would not advise buying a bought in re-badged system. Buy fom the originals make sense to me.

Don

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, Donw said:

Do calm down a bit....

 

Guilty as charged M'lud. 

 

1 hour ago, Donw said:

.....If certain manufacturers buy in their stuff and have in the past changed supplier, it is not unreasonable to be concened that they may change again making additions to the system difficult. Hence I would not advise buying a bought in re-badged system. Buy fom the originals make sense to me.

 

I'd say both yes and no to that Don.

Where do you draw the line?

Don't buy Hornby's Humbrol paints, because they're bought-in products made by other UK paint manufacturers?

Don't buy Peco's Smartswitch or Smart Frog, because they're rebranded ANE products?

Don't buy a Skoda because it's a rebodied and rebranded VW?

Don't buy another different model of VW, because it's made by Skoda and is just rebadged as a VW?

I'm sure you catch my drift....?

 

 

.

[melmerby]

I think the problem with "re-badged" is that what you buy an item under a certain stock number may not be the same as when one was previously purchased.

Haven't Bachmann been guilty if that?

 

If so you buy a decoder and it works just fine in your loco with little adjustment needed, you buy another loco the same and another decoder with the same part number but it is a different decoder entirely, which needs more tweaking to match the performance with the previous one.

It's all extra hassle.

 

The VW "badging" isn't quite the same thing as they are all cars made by a VW owned plant to a VW design but built in different countries with different absorbed maker's branding.

 

[Donw]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Guilty as charged M'lud. 

 

 

I'd say both yes and no to that Don.

Where do you draw the line?

Don't buy Hornby's Humbrol paints, because they're bought-in products made by other UK paint manufacturers?

Don't buy Peco's Smartswitch or Smart Frog, because they're rebranded ANE products?

Don't buy a Skoda because it's a rebodied and rebranded VW?

Don't buy another different model of VW, because it's made by Skoda and is just rebadged as a VW?

I'm sure you catch my drift....?

 

 

.

 

One thing is most of those you mention are self contained  a car doesn't need to connect to other cars.  With DCC you may well want to add another handset or an extra booster.   Besides you never know if they have built the re-badged items down to a lower price skipping on quality somewhere. I dont believe in running down items you haven't tried personally but I would be wary  of many of the above.

 

Don 

[reddragon]

As expected, 101 opinions!

 

I get it that I need 1 master, and some power boosters & slave units.

 

I will stick with the Hornby Elite until I outgrow it.

 

If I was to choose a DCC master system, which ones do you consider 'Good', 'great value', 'avoid' and the same for chips (including sub groups of) so that I can make an informed choice.

 

Also, is there a good book to read & learn how to do this?

 

thanks