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Large DCC layout powering


reddragon
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9 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

Just to add to the thread.   The layout described (5 loops) is not "large" on the grand scheme of things.  

 

The layout needs one command station, and perhaps a second booster (though I'd start without, just wire it so the booster can be added).   It does need district cut-outs to limit problems to sub-sections of the layout.  

 

And I concur with the comments about not having Hornby, Bachmann or Gaugemaster near the top of my list of brands to buy DCC elements from. 

 

 

 

 

The 5 loops have around 50m of track each, plus sidings and sub branches. I will operate up to 10 trains at once, MUs might include more than one power car. No idea what counts as Large?

 

I have around 130m of track down so far and I'm not half way around yet!

 

Maybe I'll only need 1 booster 

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20 minutes ago, reddragon said:

...I get it that I need 1 master, and some power boosters & slave units.

 

.....If I was to choose a DCC master system,

 

To avoid confusion and misunderstandings, it might be useful to learn a little of the terminology.

It's not jargon, in the negative sense, but if you read up on the subject and grasp the simple basic principles, you might see why using correct terminology not only helps in conversation and reading on the subject, but also helps to reinforce your own understanding.

 

Anyway, that's my theory and I'm sticking to it. :jester:

 

There is really no such thing as a "Master", or "Slave units".

Best not to use that sort of language anyway, as you might find yourself getting into hot water and "getting your collar felt", the way things are going.

What you need is a DCC system, with its central component part, the Command Station.

All DCC systems come with a Command Station and most have a Booster built-in. The system won't work without them and both are inside your Elite.

You already have this and a replacement DCC system will have them too.

Additional Boosters can be added if they are needed.

 

How you interface with the system (control or drive the trains) is through a cab or throttle (what in DC terms we normally call a controller), which can be built-in to a console type system, like your Elite (which has two); or through handsets (tethered or wireless).

Normally, addition throttles can be added to a system, so that multiple users can operate on the layout at the same time.

The Elite is at a bit of a loss here, because the additional throttles are usually Hornby Selects, which when connected up to an Elite for this purpose, would have their Command Station and Booster functions disabled, so you would just be using the throttle interface. Not ideal as they are too cumbersome to carry around.

 

Use your Elite and as your experience and knowledge grows, have a look at what alternative systems can do and how they can be expanded and arranged to best suit the particular layout and how it's going to be operated.

 

As far as books go, unfortunately a lot of the good books on the subject have been out of print for ages.

Here are a few that are worth hunting down.

Your local library may be able to source these from their central county or district wide catalogue.

 

 

 

51DpvYCP1TL._SX385_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg   5179T6rNwFL._SX375_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

 

51VjiiVT8WL.jpg   51LKwqN8SpL._SX365_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

 

 

 

.

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1 hour ago, reddragon said:

 

The 5 loops have around 50m of track each, plus sidings and sub branches. I will operate up to 10 trains at once, MUs might include more than one power car. No idea what counts as Large?

 

I have around 130m of track down so far and I'm not half way around yet!

 

Maybe I'll only need 1 booster 

 

Trouble with "large" or "small" is someone will come along with something much more extreme.   Your layout is big, but does not sound massively complex.  So, the power requirements are not huge.    Design the wiring so you can slot in more boosters if they are shown to be needed, but only buy when you clearly need them. 

 

"large" in my mind are the multi-operator basement layouts common in the US. 

 

 

1 hour ago, reddragon said:

As expected, 101 opinions!

 

I get it that I need 1 master, and some power boosters & slave units.

 

I will stick with the Hornby Elite until I outgrow it.

 

If I was to choose a DCC master system, which ones do you consider 'Good', 'great value', 'avoid' and the same for chips (including sub groups of) so that I can make an informed choice.

 

 

Ron has covered terminology and books.    There really isn't an up-to-date book which covers newer systems such as Roco's Z21 or Digikeijs,  or the emergence of smartphones as throttles on an lot of maker's systems.  

 

For decoders, stick with Zimo, ESU and maybe Lenz and you have high quality stuff.   All three have standard decoders in the approx. £20 range and give outstanding control..  

 

Control system makers is a complicated issue ( though my avoid would include Hornby and Bachmann because their systems are somewhat dated and have issues which are difficult to resolve).   A lot of it comes down to preferred user interface to control them, and the features you might want now or in the future.    

 

 

- Nigel

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15 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

To avoid confusion and misunderstandings, it might be useful to learn a little of the terminology.

It's not jargon, in the negative sense, but if you read up on the subject and grasp the simple basic principles, you might see why using correct terminology not only helps in conversation and reading on the subject, but also helps to reinforce your own understanding.

 

Anyway, that's my theory and I'm sticking to it. :jester:

 

There is really no such thing as a "Master", or "Slave units".

Best not to use that sort of language anyway, as you might find yourself getting into hot water and "getting your collar felt", the way things are going.

What you need is a DCC system, with its central component part, the Command Station.

All DCC systems come with a Command Station and most have a Booster built-in. The system won't work without them and both are inside your Elite.

You already have this and a replacement DCC system will have them too.

Additional Boosters can be added if they are needed.

 

How you interface with the system (control or drive the trains) is through a cab or throttle (what in DC terms we normally call a controller), which can be built-in to a console type system, like your Elite (which has two); or through handsets (tethered or wireless).

Normally, addition throttles can be added to a system, so that multiple users can operate on the layout at the same time.

The Elite is at a bit of a loss here, because the additional throttles are usually Hornby Selects, which when connected up to an Elite for this purpose, would have their Command Station and Booster functions disabled, so you would just be using the throttle interface. Not ideal as they are too cumbersome to carry around.

 

Use your Elite and as your experience and knowledge grows, have a look at what alternative systems can do and how they can be expanded and arranged to best suit the particular layout and how it's going to be operated.

 

As far as books go, unfortunately a lot of the good books on the subject have been out of print for ages.

Here are a few that are worth hunting down.

Your local library may be able to source these from their central county or district wide catalogue.

 

 

 

51DpvYCP1TL._SX385_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg   5179T6rNwFL._SX375_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

 

51VjiiVT8WL.jpg   51LKwqN8SpL._SX365_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

 

 

 

.

 

£361.27 on Amazon!

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I note you intend to stick with your Elite. For my part I have an Elite which controls the trains via Railmaster . Railmaster has the ability to run two controllers so I have an eLink powered by an Elite 4amp power pack as the second controller which runs all the accessory decoders. So basically I have 4 amps running trains and 4 amps running accessories. My layout is smaller than yours (about 150 yards of track and 60 pairs of points) and it all works swimmingly well! I have about 40 locos on the track at any one time about 10 of which are sound fitted.  As you have a large layout there is a way of making Railmaster of more use. My railway loft is 30 ft long so I use a wireless mouse and 3 monitor screens so I can run the entire layout "cordlessly" from multi locations.

You pays yer money...........

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One factor to take into account is whether you will have a number of operators or be mostly running it on your own. If you are going to be running it mostly on your own you may find using JMRI on a PC makes a better controller than some of the commercial systems. JMI is free to download maybe worth a look. You can add extra handsets using mobile phones over wifi. If on the other hand there will be three or four people running trains you cannot all be clustered round the PC. You need a system for the JMRI to connect to  to produce the output to the track.

Don

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On 12/07/2020 at 21:12, Donw said:

You can add extra handsets using mobile phones over wifi. If on the other hand there will be three or four people running trains you cannot all be clustered round the PC.

If each of those people bring a smartphone with them then they each have their own throttle in their hand already.

 

Andi

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23 minutes ago, Dagworth said:

If each of those people bring a smartphone with them then they each have their own throttle in their hand already.

 

Andi

 

Then their wife phones, followed by their daughter wanting to be picked up etc.  No switch the phones off during a running session. I have an old phone with the simm removed which I use with a bluetooth link to a DCC system prefer a proper control though with a knob.

 

Don

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8 minutes ago, Donw said:

 

Then their wife phones, followed by their daughter wanting to be picked up etc.  No switch the phones off during a running session. I have an old phone with the simm removed which I use with a bluetooth link to a DCC system prefer a proper control though with a knob.

 

 

 

Isn't that taking it a little seriously?

I can understand a phone being a distraction at something like a snooker tournament where noise can affect concentration, but for a running session? It is not like anyone will get fined for a late running service.

If you have enough extras operators to justify using phones as handsets, then you should also have someone able to cut power to prevent a collision.

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43 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

If you have enough extras operators to justify using phones as handsets, then you should also have someone able to cut power to prevent a collision.

The app I use on my phone with my Digikeijs allows any phone to cut track power.

 

Andi

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6 minutes ago, Andymsa said:

How about something quaint, a proper handset for controlling those trains. Leave phones for phone calls ect.

 

Phones are ideal for guest operators.

It seems a waste to have 3 or 4 handsets if there is only likely to be more operators there on a very rare occasion.

Phones provide a familiarity too. As an NCE user, I may be unfamiliar with a Digikeijs, Digitrax or Lenz handset but the Engine Driver app looks the same regardless of which system it is used with.

 

There was already a PC in my layout room. It is there to play music & display photos which I can use for reference when making buildings. It is connected to my home network & like most houses, I have wifi.

All I had to do to use JMRI is find a USB-serial cable & I have found it very useful for backing up decoder settings & adjusting CVs.

WiThrottle (phone throttle server) is an included part if JMRI so I did not go out of my way to install it, but it is available.

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2 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

....There was already a PC in my layout room. ......

....All I had to do to use JMRI is find a USB-serial cable & I have found it very useful for backing up decoder settings & adjusting CVs.

WiThrottle (phone throttle server) is an included part if JMRI so I did not go out of my way to install it, but it is available.

 

For those with a DCC system that has built-in capability, or the availability of add-on modules, you can have direct communication with a mobile device (phone etc,) and therefore no need at all for a PC or Mac running JMRI.

Engine Driver, WiTrottle etc, can be installed on the phone, which talks directly to the DCC system directly, or through the add-on module.

e.g. Prodigy WiFi module.

 

 

.

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14 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

For those with a DCC system that has built-in capability, or the availability of add-on modules, you can have direct communication with a mobile device (phone etc,) and therefore no need at all for a PC or Mac running JMRI.

Engine Driver, WiTrottle etc, can be installed on the phone, which talks directly to the DCC system directly, or through the add-on module.

e.g. Prodigy WiFi module.

 

 

.

 

This true. However, I have Railmaster on my phone but due to the restriction of screen size I don't use it much as I can only have one throttle visible at any one time and the track plan is a bit small for feasible points changing. This is why I use pc monitors and a wireless mouse. I can access the full sized track plan and have 4 throttles visible at the same time. I tend only to use the iPhone for trains going up the branch line off the main layout.

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34 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

For those with a DCC system that has built-in capability, or the availability of add-on modules, you can have direct communication with a mobile device (phone etc,) and therefore no need at all for a PC or Mac running JMRI.

Engine Driver, WiTrottle etc, can be installed on the phone, which talks directly to the DCC system directly, or through the add-on module.

e.g. Prodigy WiFi module.

 

 

.

 

Only if the phone or device supports the protocol that is used by the command station on its network interface.

 

No point in trying to connect to a command station that uses Loconet Service/TCPIP/(any other variant), XpressNet or Z21 protocol if the phone or device doesn't support that same protocol standard.

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Well a lot depends on how you work and the type of layout. But I wasn't being that serious. Mind you I wouldn't feel comfortable if I had been invited to operate a layout then had my phone going off in the middle. It would seem rude but that is probably because I am old and feel different about phones to you youngsters. 

Don

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Donw said:

......Mind you I wouldn't feel comfortable if I had been invited to operate a layout then had my phone going off in the middle.

It would seem rude but that is probably because I am old and feel different about phones to you youngsters. 

 

If you don't want the phone to ring, just select silent ringer mode, or select the do not disturb function, or put the phone into airplane mode with the WiFi switched on.

It's not really that difficult Don.

 

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39 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

If you don't want the phone to ring, just select silent ringer mode, or select the do not disturb function, or put the phone into airplane mode with the WiFi switched on.

It's not really that difficult Don.

 

.

 

No it isn't so why do you get plays, concerts, meetings, family dinners all interrupted by phones going off. 

Enough on that now.

 

Don

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7 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

 

Only if the phone or device supports the protocol that is used by the command station on its network interface.

 

No point in trying to connect to a command station that uses Loconet Service/TCPIP/(any other variant), XpressNet or Z21 protocol if the phone or device doesn't support that same protocol standard.

 

Not at all Iain.

It's almost plug and play with any Android or iOS device that has the appropriate app downloaded.

Engine Driver or WiThrottle respectively, for DCC systems that have built-in capability or added WiFi modules (e.g. Digitrax LNWI, MRC Prodigy WiFi etc,), or apps specific to other DCC systems connected to a local network, or stand-alone network (e.g. ECoS Cab, TouchCab, RailDrive for ECoS, TouchCab for Lenz etc,).

 

 

.

 

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9 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

One word. Muppets

Not 'arf. Before every performance starts, a recorded announcement asks people to switch off their phone or put it on silent. During one performance last year a phone rang and the owner, instead of quickly turning it off, answered it and said "Hello - I'm in the theatre!" She must have thought it was no different from watching a sort of live video. Hell for those on stage. 

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30 minutes ago, reddragon said:

Thanks everyone, I have chosen to switch to the Roco Z21 set up.

 

Good choice.

A flexible system with the ability to use tethered or WiFi MultiMaus handsets, plus smartphones and tablets, to drive your trains.

There's also a good range of matching Roco boosters.

 

.

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5 hours ago, reddragon said:

Thanks everyone, I have chosen to switch to the Roco Z21 set up.


Good choice that will support any needs going forward - even the z21 is capable but it’s bigger brother, the Z21 is even more capable :)

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