Another mystery wagon

[Compound2632]

@LSWRlinesider* recently posted this link to a GWR safety campaign document of 1914, held by the NRM:

https://www.railwaymuseum.org.uk/sites/default/files/2018-04/the-safety-movement-1914-LOW.pdf?

The wagon in the two photos on p. 16 is a bit of a curiosity. A wood-framed 4-plank with 3-plank high side door and wooden brake blocks, quite unlike anything built by the Great Western after the mid-1880s; before that date, opens were successively one, two, and three plank-sided; I'm not aware of any company-built timber-framed 4-plank wagons. My first thought is that it is a hired wagon; there was an article in Pannier a while ago about such things, with photos of similar wagons hired from the Birmingham RC&W Co. The livery is non-standard: 6"-ish G . W and in script, Factory. It would make some sense as a Swindon Carriage & Wagon Works internal user wagon, as the photo is presumably take there - note the shiny claret carriage in the background, fresh out of the paint shop, I presume.

 

[Query previously posted on @Mikkel's blog.]

 

*Forgive him his nom-de-web - as is evident I'm a Midland enthusiast myself but always happy to poke my nose into pre-grouping Great Western affairs!

 

Edited July 12, 2020 by Compound2632
Shorter version of web link inserted

[Mikkel]

I recently ordered this, will look out for interesting wagons in the background.

 

[Collett]

Very interesting, four plank with 3 plank door, ribbed buffers (which seem quite short), single wooden block brake and that rather elegantly curved brake handle.

I would hazard the opinion this wagon is a 'foreigner' from an acquired line such as, possibly, the Lambourn Valley Railway, where the GWR took ownership in 1905.  However, while there are only a handful of pictures of the pre-GWR days in my copy of Robertson & Simmonds' 'The Lambourn Branch' (Wild Swan Publications ISBN 090686724), the opens all appear to have curved raised ends, and while they have what appear to be four plank opens with three plank doors (top picture page 15, unpainted wagons beside the goods shed) these two wagons seem to have hinges that would allow the top plank to open on either side - the GWR 1914 Health & Safety Handbook picture has a solid through plank.  I'm unable to make out any brake lever details in any of the pictures of LVR stock to indicate the LVR's wagon 'style' in that department.

If it is a wagon 'hired in' as suggested, then it seems likely it would be doing more productive work than hanging around the Swindon works, with a rather odd 'Factory' designation, and being used for photo opportunities rather than earning revenue to cover its cost to the Company.  It seems more likely this is an inherited wagon from elsewhere and restricted to Company premises as a non-standard (and not Private Owner) wagon.   

Intriguing.  Let's hope Mikkel has some luck with his pictures of Swindon and the mysterious wagon is spotted (and identified) - I really like that brake handle. 

 

[wagonman]

The axlebox looks like a standard GWR product, the 'Bible' has a photo of a single plank wagon (still in traffic) with the same sort of buffers, and many of the older wooden framed wagons had the curved brake handle, so I would think it is a pukka GWR vehicle though, as it has been relegated to internal use, it may well have been modified in some way that would not have attracted the attention of the official record keepers.

[petethemole]

The revised edition of the 'Bible', under Coal and Mineral Wagons, mentions the wood-framed 8 and 10 ton wagons used by the GWR for South Wales coal in the 1880s. Dimensions are given but no illustration.  The full length top plank suggests a mineral rather than an open wagon, so I suggest it might be one of these, relegated to internal use at Swindon.

[Compound2632]

26 minutes ago, petethemole said:

The revised edition of the 'Bible', under Coal and Mineral Wagons, mentions the wood-framed 8 and 10 ton wagons used by the GWR for South Wales coal in the 1880s. Dimensions are given but no illustration.  The full length top plank suggests a mineral rather than an open wagon, so I suggest it might be one of these, relegated to internal use at Swindon.

 

It does look to me very like a typical mineral wagon of the pre-RCH 1887 spec period, with the refinement of sprung rather than dumb buffers, so that sounds plausible. I hadn't been aware that the GW had such mineral wagons - I had been under the impression that they depended on the coal trade providing their own wagons, though I was aware that later the GW hired mineral wagons from the trade.

 

Is it the 2013 edition to which you refer? I've only had access to the first, two volume, edition and the 1988 third edition - neither at present owing to Covid.

 

The G . W lettering on the bottom right plank still intrigues - if this was still in pre-1904 livery one would expect the full G . W . R lettering in this position. Shame the number isn't visible!

 

 

[57xx]

38 minutes ago, petethemole said:

The revised edition of the 'Bible', under Coal and Mineral Wagons, mentions the wood-framed 8 and 10 ton wagons used by the GWR for South Wales coal in the 1880s. Dimensions are given but no illustration.  The full length top plank suggests a mineral rather than an open wagon, so I suggest it might be one of these, relegated to internal use at Swindon.

 

Looks like a precursor to the N7, photo of which is on the same page as the dimensions table. Probably a pre-Diagram wagon as mentioned. The text says they were converted from regular opens by addition of a full length plank to get the 3' height required.

Edited July 13, 2020 by 57xx

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, 57xx said:

 

Looks like a precursor to the N7, photo of which is on the same page as the dimensions table. Probably a pre-Diagram wagon as mentioned. The text says they were converted from regular opens by addition of a full length plank to get the 3' height required.

 

That would be a wood-framed 3-plank wagon. It's unclear to me when the change to iron frames came in - early 1880s? My notes from Atkins (3rd ed) have the 3-plank wagons built from 1879-1887, first Lot old series 188, last Lot old series 384, preceded by 2-plank wagons of the same depth, 1871-1878.

 

I was under the impression that N-series diagrams were all loco coal?

Edited July 13, 2020 by Compound2632

[57xx]

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I was under the impression that N-series diagrams were all loco coal?

 

Correct.

[wagonman]

The combined volume has a photo of just such a wagon as used in the 1904 painting trials. The brake(s) are on the other side, the buffer housing is plain, not ribbed, and it has a bulb iron under frame rather than wood but it otherwise the same. Caption says diagram N7 which seems to be a catch-all for sundry wooden loco coal wagons as there is also a drawing of a five plank 10 ton version, also N7.

 

Metal under frames seem to have superseded wooden ones around 1885, at first bulb-iron then, from late 1880s, channel section iron (steel from about 1895).

 

The G . W lettering style seems to have been commonly used on 'Factory' and 'Dock Department' wagons though I can't find examples just now.

[57xx]

11 minutes ago, wagonman said:

The combined volume has a photo of just such a wagon as used in the 1904 painting trials. The brake(s) are on the other side, the buffer housing is plain, not ribbed, and it has a bulb iron under frame rather than wood but it otherwise the same. Caption says diagram N7 which seems to be a catch-all for sundry wooden loco coal wagons as there is also a drawing of a five plank 10 ton version, also N7.

 

Metal under frames seem to have superseded wooden ones around 1885, at first bulb-iron then, from late 1880s, channel section iron (steel from about 1895).

 

The G . W lettering style seems to have been commonly used on 'Factory' and 'Dock Department' wagons though I can't find examples just now.

 

The corner plates on the "N7" are also wider than the one in the document above. One other major discrepancy is the text stating the y were built by adding an extra plank to 4 plank wagons. Whilst the GA for the N7 shows a 5 plank wagon (in both earlier and latest editions), the picture of the wagon in the paint trials is a 4 plank wagon (3 plank with 4th full length plank).

[hmrspaul]

This is a strange discussion. The diagram book starts somewhere just after the turn of the century; Atkins et al are pretty skimpy on anything not in the diagram book, like they largely ignore the tens of thousands of wagons acquired at Grouping. Some individuals have investigated the earlier wagons but I'm not aware much has been published, and it is unlikely they were very standardised. Wikipedia tells me the GWR

was founded in 1833, received its enabling Act of Parliament on 31 August 1835 and ran its first trains in 1838. So two generations of wagons before the turn of the century. [wagons usually have a book life of 35 to 40 years]

 

Paul

Edited July 13, 2020 by hmrspaul

[57xx]

33 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

This is a strange discussion.

 

What's strange about it?

We've already concluded:

1) It is most likely a mineral wagon.

2) It is pre-Diagram.

3) It's in internal usage.

3) It is not an N7.

Edited July 13, 2020 by 57xx

[wagonman]

Don't forget that some diagrams were issued retrospectively – V6 Iron Minks for one – and that we have already posited the idea that the N7 diagram covered a variety of wooden loco coal wagons that were rebuilt from older wagons sometime in the 1890s – either that or Atkins et al have made a balls up. As the wagon that started this is in internal use it is rather irrelevant.

[Compound2632]

On 13/07/2020 at 19:38, hmrspaul said:

The diagram book starts somewhere just after the turn of the century; Atkins et al are pretty skimpy on anything not in the diagram book,

 

That's a point that is often obscured in the wagon books, starting with Midland Wagons. I have yet to work out when the Midland's wagon diagram book was first issued; the Midland Railway Study Centre has an undated wagon diagram book and a carriage diagram book dating from 1906 - my suspicion is that that's the date of introduction. 

 

But Atkins (3rd ed.) seems to be pretty comprehensive in its coverage of pre-diagram open wagons, giving lots and numbering right back to 1-plank wagons of 1868-1871. It did, however, turn out to be very incomplete in its coverage of the pre-iron mink wood minks. And when were they first described by the telegraphic code "mink"?

Edited July 18, 2020 by Compound2632
Midland Wagons, not Midland Style.

[Il Grifone]

23 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

This is a strange discussion. The diagram book starts somewhere just after the turn of the century; Atkins et al are pretty skimpy on anything not in the diagram book, like they largely ignore the tens of thousands of wagons acquired at Grouping. Some individuals have investigated the earlier wagons but I'm not aware much has been published, and it is unlikely they were very standardised. Wikipedia tells me the GWR

was founded in 1833, received its enabling Act of Parliament on 31 August 1835 and ran its first trains in 1838. So two generations of wagons before the turn of the century. [wagons usually have a book life of 35 to 40 years]

 

Paul

 

Most of the first generation would have been broad gauge however. There are photos of quantities of these stored at Swindon post 1892, awaiting conversion or more likely scrapping.

Early ideas of standardisation were rather different than today's.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

Most of the first generation would have been broad gauge however.

 

By no means. The Great Western had a significant standard gauge mileage, following the absorption of the West Midland Railway, and that standard gauge mileage served the principal manufacturing districts reached by the company. The carriage & wagon works at Saltney and Worcester presumably turned out significant numbers of wood-framed standard gauge wagons from the 1850s to the 1870s that are largely unrecorded in Atkins. Clearly high time I bought a copy of T. Wood, Saltney Carriage & Wagon Works (GWSG, 2007).

Edited July 14, 2020 by Compound2632

[Il Grifone]

That's true, but not until nearly twenty years later, sufficient time to count as second generation. Any absorbed wagons would have been a mixed collection....

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Il Grifone said:

That's true, but not until nearly twenty years later, sufficient time to count as second generation. Any absorbed wagons would have been a mixed collection....

 

The broad gauge lines have the glamour but I'd be willing to bet that if one could examine the accounts in the years after the amalgamation, it would be the absorbed and amalgamated standard gauge lines that were originating the majority of the freight revenue, both the West Midland, following the abandonment of the broad gauge on the Oxford line, and the Shrewsbury lines. With the Shrewsbury & Chester, the Great Western gained Saltney works in 1854; from that date it was by definition building Great Western wagons, up until at least the 1870s presumably for the whole standard gauge Great Western, so some degree of uniformity would have been inevitable if not essential. 

 

I don't know much about the Worcester works but I would be surprised if after the amalgamation with the WMR, their products were not to the same design as Saltney's, under the eye of the Armstrong brothers.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Compound2632

[tomparryharry]

The wagon in question is most likely an internal user. As such, you wouldn't see it past the works starter signal.  The word 'factory' on photo 16 is a bit of a giveaway. Ex book & internal user wagons would get cobbled together to keep them going until the wagon was unsafe to use, then promptly scrapped. 

[Compound2632]

51 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

The wagon in question is most likely an internal user. As such, you wouldn't see it past the works starter signal.  The word 'factory' on photo 16 is a bit of a giveaway. Ex book & internal user wagons would get cobbled together to keep them going until the wagon was unsafe to use, then promptly scrapped. 

 

Yes, but it is its origins as much as its status at the time of the photograph that interest me.

 

May I ask what your source is for your final sentence? The wagon looks in reasonable condition to me.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Compound2632

[tomparryharry]

40 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, but it is its origins as much as its status at the time of the photograph that interest me.

 

May I ask what your source is for your final sentence? The wagon looks in reasonable condition to me.

 

Going by the legend 'factory' would imply that said wagon is internal user. Our photograph can be misleading, but things like wooden headstocks, when the Western was going over to steel is another factor. As an internal wagon in any industry, local repairs are the norm, and modifications to a wagon for the benefit of the shop floor staff are quite normal. 

 

In all honesty, we could be both equally right, and equally wrong. We cannot tell, for instance, if the wagon is rhomboid by cause of accident, or any other malady. 

 

Cheers,

Ian.

[Compound2632]

How about this one? Hired? Black ironwork (or very faded woodwork)? Non-standard size of GW? (Although I think two-oplank-high lettering was used on three-plank wagons in the 25" GW period.)

 

 

Crop from a photo taken at Acton "after 1904".

Edited July 18, 2020 by Compound2632

[petethemole]

Four* even width planks, full height door with the latches on the top plank, curved ends, internal diagonal strapping, solebar hidden; it is an Open rather than a Mineral.  Later (1911) five-plank wagons hired from GRCW were similar but with flat ends, so this may be an older example.  The 1911 wagons were painted black.

 

*Changed from five after a closer look; one door hinge is visible so that must be on the curb rail.

 

Edited July 18, 2020 by petethemole
second thoughts.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, petethemole said:

Four* even width planks, full height door with the latches on the top plank,

 

I think the door is only 3 planks high, with latches on the line of the hinges on the through top plank (rather than loop and pin fastening to the sides). That speaks mineral rather than merchandise, to me.