Another mystery wagon

[The Stationmaster]

On 16/07/2020 at 10:15, tomparryharry said:

 

Going by the legend 'factory' would imply that said wagon is internal user. Our photograph can be misleading, but things like wooden headstocks, when the Western was going over to steel is another factor. As an internal wagon in any industry, local repairs are the norm, and modifications to a wagon for the benefit of the shop floor staff are quite normal. 

 

In all honesty, we could be both equally right, and equally wrong. We cannot tell, for instance, if the wagon is rhomboid by cause of accident, or any other malady. 

 

Cheers,

Ian.

Definitely a departmental user with that legend 'Factory' but that then leaves a whole host of question marks about what it was used for as it could be anything from materials to spares to scrap to whatever.   And of course another question mark is which 'Factory - swindon, Wolverhampton, Newton Abbot, Old Oak Common - the list of potential locations is considerable.

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Definitely a departmental user 

 

Ah, but what was it before retirement? What are its origins? 

 

5 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

And of course another question mark is which 'Factory - swindon, Wolverhampton, Newton Abbot, Old Oak Common - the list of potential locations is considerable.

 

Presumably the one most convenient for the official photographer to take his staged shots for the safety booklet. Also, I think it has to be one that had a carriage paint shop.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Ah, but what was it before retirement? What are its origins? 

 

 

Presumably the one most convenient for the official photographer to take his staged shots for the safety booklet. Also, I think it has to be one that had a carriage paint shop.

Why do you think it has been retired?   There is nothing to indicate that in the photo - the wagon looks in reasonable 'everyday use' condition.  Don't forget that plenty of wagons were built new for departmental use.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Why do you think it has been retired?   There is nothing to indicate that in the photo - the wagon looks in reasonable 'everyday use' condition.  Don't forget that plenty of wagons were built new for departmental use.

 

My presumption is that it's an wagon built for traffic but being of a superannuated design is now working out its declining years in internal user use. That doesn't mean it's not in good condition, just no longer meeting current traffic requirements - probably only a 7 or 8 ton capacity wagon. Is there any evidence for timber-framed wagons built new for such purpose? The GW departmental wagons that I'm aware of built for non-revenue traffic tend to be of relatively advanced design, notably the iron loco coal wagons.

[tomparryharry]

A reasonable thought is that the vehicle is used to carry salt. Salt has a multitude of uses in industry, not least keeping ice from walking surfaces. 

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

A reasonable thought is that the vehicle is used to carry salt. Salt has a multitude of uses in industry, not least keeping ice from walking surfaces. 

 

I've not come across company-owned wagons specifically designed for salt traffic. Such vehicles, opens, covered wagons, and wagons with the characteristic gable roof, tended to be PO wagons - Salt Union etc. - that way the salt companies could be confident that their consignments weren't going to be contaminated by anything else that had been in the wagon. But true, I believe such wagons were timber-framed, an iron or steel-framed wagon being at risk of corrosion.

[Nick Holliday]

14 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I've not come across company-owned wagons specifically designed for salt traffic. Such vehicles, opens, covered wagons, and wagons with the characteristic gable roof, tended to be PO wagons - Salt Union etc. - that way the salt companies could be confident that their consignments weren't going to be contaminated by anything else that had been in the wagon. But true, I believe such wagons were timber-framed, an iron or steel-framed wagon being at risk of corrosion.

The NER built some 280 or so Salt Wagons in 1909, Dia. C11.  There was a kit (or kits) from David Geen and 51L, although both seem to be unobtainable at the moment.

[Compound2632]

I've just bought T. Wood, Saltney Carriage and Wagon Works (GWSG / The Wider View, 2007). In the listing of wagons built at Saltney, there is old series Lot 66, 200 9 ton wagons 15'6" x 7'6" x 3'0" deep,  Nos. 20501-20700, completed June 1872. These are described variously as Open Goods (Loco), Loco Coal, or Open Goods. Comparing the wagon on p. 16 of the safety booklet with photos of 2-plank wagons built to nearby lots, it's apparent that it shares all the same details below curb rail level.

 

Therefore I think our Factory wagon is one of these, or if not from this particular lot, from a contemporary Worcester or Swindon-built lot, if there were any. 

Edited July 23, 2020 by Compound2632
curb not cant

[4069]

Cant rail? On an open wagon?

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, 4069 said:

Cant rail? On an open wagon?

 

Thank you for spotting that slip. I meant everything below curb or side rail, if course - solebars, headstocks (and hence presumably the middle bearers etc.) along with running and buffing gear and brakes. Corrected in post!

[wagonman]

On 18/07/2020 at 09:53, Compound2632 said:

How about this one? Hired? Black ironwork (or very faded woodwork)? Non-standard size of GW? (Although I think two-oplank-high lettering was used on three-plank wagons in the 25" GW period.)

 

 

Crop from a photo taken at Acton "after 1904".

 

Hired from Birmingham wagon co in c.1903. There is an article in Pannier 39 about these hirings (there were quite a lot in the early 1900s).

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, wagonman said:

 

Hired from Birmingham wagon co in c.1903. There is an article in Pannier 39 about these hirings (there were quite a lot in the early 1900s).

 

I've got that issue of Pannier (somewhere). It had a photo of a dumb-buffered 4-plank wagon on hire from Birmingham, that informed my attempt at a Huntley & Palmers Birmingham wagon.

 

Just to add to the mystery, the above-mentioned Saltney book has a page of crops from a photo taken at Swindon C&W sidings, 30 April 1908. This has another non-standard 4-plank wagon partly in view, with an X on its 3-plank high door, denoting an Engineering Dept. wagon (according to the caption) and with the word Loco in script on the top plank - so either a (former) loco coal wagon or assigned to the loco dept. It's been renumbered 65. It differs from the wagon in the safety booklet: that has planks of equal width; here the top plank is considerably wider, making the wagon several inches deeper than an adjacent standard 4-plank wagon (2'4"). The pattern of bolts on the corner plate is also different. The underframe is hidden by a great pile of castings but the headstock appears to be iron or steel channel of the same profile as on a standard 4-plank wagon and the buffer guide is of the standard pattern. Not having Atkins to hand, I don't know what it says about early loco coal wagons but if N7 is supposed to be a catch-all diagram for them, I suppose this is likely to be representative? @57xx mentioned such wagons being converted from standard 3-plank wagons by the addition of an extra plank to give 3'0" depth; I believe the 3-plank wagons had the same 1'10" depth as the later batches of 2-plank wagons that immediately preceded them, if so, the top plank should be 14" or twice the width of the other plank, which, I think, matches the photo.

 

I'd never realised Great Western wagons could be so interesting!

 

 

[Western Star]

36 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I'd never realised Great Western wagons could be so interesting!

Now that is an interesting comment from one  who spends an awful lot of time writing about the MR "great wagon build saga" - worth reading as well.

 

Do you get sound effects for the round of applause?

 

regards, Graham

 

 

Edited July 24, 2020 by Western Star

[wagonman]

The white 'X' on a wagon denoted that it was not allowed to be used on the main line – ie internal user. Many of the Docks Department wagons, among others, carried the mark.

 

 

[wagonman]

The information about hired wagons in Pannier 39 is mostly an expanded version of the list Len Tavender published in Coal Trade Wagons.

[Mikkel]

On 12/07/2020 at 19:54, Mikkel said:

I recently ordered this, will look out for interesting wagons in the background.

 

 

I have now been through this. Nothing particular of note for this discussion, except that it does confirm one thought I had: At no point in the discussion and  official listings of 30+ Swindon shops is the term"factory" used. 

 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

At no point in the discussion and  official listings of 30+ Swindon shops is the term"factory" used. 

 

 

Yet Wood, in the Saltney book, refers to an evidently extant list of "factory" wagons - apparently wagons in departmental use. Maybe @Chrisbr can comment on that? Plus of course more than one instance of a wagon lettered "Factory" in script.

[Chrisbr]

@Compound2632 I only have a small selection of the wagon stock books and not the ones relating to these builds, so can't comment about the "Factory" marking on any of these wagons. Certainly there are comments made about the signage added to wagons later in life, typically "Not for common user" or "Return to ...." as well as some more interesting examples I've come across,  but I have not noted "... Factory" so far.

I may well do a trawl over the next few days to see what I find.