RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted July 24, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 24, 2020 The far and away biggest problem with resurrecting one of the Welsh locomotives, is its historical provenance. The only true 'Welsh' locomotive is Taff Vale Railway no 28, which is currently being restored by the team over at the Gwili Railway. In the locomotives' working life, it had 4 different owners. Being:- Taff Vale, Great Western, Longmoor Military Railway (Woolmer Instructional Railway) and National Coal Board. In those ownership's, it has had a rebuild or two, and as such, has altered the locomotive somewhat. Changes back & forth for driving side, Auto fitted both on & off, water tank removed. Even the cab, although Taff by origin, is most definitely not the original. Wrong buffers, changed headstocks; the list is extensive. If a manufacturer went near the original, the pitfalls are possibly extensive, and somewhat off-putting. In this sorry scenario, what chance for any other models from the Principality? Yes, The Western did indeed rebuild a lot of locomotives. Absorbing locomotives with still half of the book value, it makes good sense to rebuild said assets for another 20-odd years. The newest locomotives, such as the Rhymney A's, got a rebuild as part of the continuing asset value. On the other hand, the Taff Vale K class was mostly at the end of its book value, and as such, was disposed very quickly indeed. Had the grouping not taken place, the Taff would have replaced its older stock, as part of its accountancy process. The Barry Railway was about to introduce the class M, a prairie tank not dissimilar to a Western Prairie. When lockdown is fully removed, I intend to return to West Wales, and do an inspection of Taff Vale 28. This is more industrial archaeology than restoration, and I wish the team doing the hard work every success. Nothing worth doing in Welsh RTR? I wholeheartedly disagree. If you can get over the lack of 1:1 scanning facilities and intensive research, then the game is very much 'on'. Cheers, Ian. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted July 24, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 24, 2020 (edited) On 14/07/2020 at 17:20, BMS said: It is about time someone produced a ready to run Welsh company engine; preferably Taff Vale 0-6-2T M or M1 or N or O(1-4) or even A- TVR or Kitson built - scope for other Welsh and non-Welsh versions of the M/M1 Taff Vale O4 please. An unsung locomotive IMHO. Whilst the A's normally worked passenger stock, the O4's plugged away, turn & turn about with the 56xx's. Edited July 25, 2020 by tomparryharry Added text clarity Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted July 24, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 24, 2020 On 12/07/2020 at 14:54, DavidCBroad said: No way. We have to leave something for modellers to create from old Flying Scotsmans, Romford wheels and bits of brass . Mind you if it had realistic haulage power, like 100 wagons I might be tempted. I'd rather have an LNWR 19" goods or a Caley 903 "Cardean" 100 wagon train, David? No problem! Put a 28xx on the front.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2750Papyrus Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 3 hours ago, tomparryharry said: 100 wagon train, David? No problem! Put a 28xx on the front.... I've never seen a picture of a B17 Sandringham on such a train, but if you say so...…... 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Eastern Lady Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 P1’s only a class of two were indeed very handsome and superbly capable locomotives especially with the boosters, even if they were troublesome, Shame they got rebuilt I for one wouldn’t mind if Hornby decided to make it , as it would make a great addition to anyone’s LNER fleet However for me I would much prefer additions to the ex GER locomotives of an E4 , F5 and F6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonnyRailMan Posted July 26, 2020 Author Share Posted July 26, 2020 12 hours ago, Great Eastern Lady said: P1’s only a class of two were indeed very handsome and superbly capable locomotives especially with the boosters, even if they were troublesome, Shame they got rebuilt . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 14 hours ago, Great Eastern Lady said: ...Shame they got rebuilt... They didn't. At the end of the war they were broken up, the boilers going to pacifics being upgraded from A1 to A3, the tenders to other locos, and all the other useable components re-used in Doncaster works standard fashion, all here: https://www.lner.info/locos/P/p1.php Like you I would prefer more of the small pre group LNER black locos in common service, of which there are a plenitude to choose among. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2750Papyrus Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 Perhaps GEL was referring to the removal of the boosters? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Eastern Lady Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 10 hours ago, 2750Papyrus said: Perhaps GEL was referring to the removal of the boosters? @34theletterbetweenB&D is correct , they did both get scrapped, my mistake 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 On 24/07/2020 at 21:15, 2750Papyrus said: I've never seen a picture of a B17 Sandringham on such a train, but if you say so...…... If you can rustle up 95 more wagons you can always buy this.... https://www.hattons.co.uk/409107/hornby_r1244_east_lincolnshire_special_train_set_with_lner_b17_and_five_wagons_hornby_signat/stockdetail.aspx Jason 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffnut Thorston Posted July 27, 2020 Share Posted July 27, 2020 You would also need a suitable goods brake van... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doktorstamp Posted July 27, 2020 Share Posted July 27, 2020 I find the prospect of such a loco being produced in model form quite interesting, even if others have exhibited preferences for further locos to take precedence. A 100 wagon train on a model railway would be an inspiring sight, assuming (don't stone me, statitisticians do it all the time), that each wagon measures approx 3" in length, we arrive at a length of 25 ft., without loco or brake van. Then there is the weight to be considered, allowing 50 grammes per wagon, we arrive at a weight of 5kg,(about 12½ lbs in old money), not including loco or brake van, assuming our loco has sufficient grunt to pull this lot , plus itself, and the obligatory brake van, I surmise derailments would occur with alarming frequency, also, how many layouts have this kind of size to accommodate such a behemoth? The weight would also rise were the wagons to have a representative load. Perhaps it would prove necessary to motorise the tender, thus accommodating the power element of the booster, even if it's in the wrong place. A compromise, that may well prove to be necessary to protect the loco from "burn out". regards to all stay safe Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonnyRailMan Posted July 27, 2020 Author Share Posted July 27, 2020 I think most people would struggle with there P1s hauling 100 wagons. My layout is only 20 ft X 4ft 6 inc . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted July 27, 2020 Share Posted July 27, 2020 6 hours ago, doktorstamp said: .... A 100 wagon train on a model railway would be an inspiring sight, assuming (don't stone me, statitisticians do it all the time), that each wagon measures approx 3" in length, we arrive at a length of 25 ft., without loco or brake van. Then there is the weight to be considered, allowing 50 grammes per wagon, we arrive at a weight of 5kg,(about 12½ lbs in old money), not including loco or brake van, assuming our loco has sufficient grunt to pull this lot , plus itself, and the obligatory brake van, I surmise derailments would occur with alarming frequency, also, how many layouts have this kind of size to accommodate such a behemoth? The weight would also rise were the wagons to have a representative load. Perhaps it would prove necessary to motorise the tender, thus accommodating the power element of the booster, even if it's in the wrong place. A compromise, that may well prove to be necessary to protect the loco from "burn out"... There arecurrent RTR OO steam models that have the required traction for this load on level track, and it is fully practical to operate a train of this length provided that: the vehicles are all free rolling (will roll away from a stand on a true 1 in 100) which is readily achieved with metal wheels on pinpoint axles, both RTR in plastic, and kit wheelsets in brass bearings; weight range about 12.5 to 25g per axle, so 25-50g for 4w, my own SWB stock averages 40g; coupler type and mounting consistent throughout; minimum radius is circa 30"/750mm to prevent 'stringlining', especially if the train is on two 180 degree curves; traction control is very smooth, no jerking. With 100 regular SWB wagons plus loco and brake, train length ranges from 28 to 30 feet all closed up dependent on choice of couplers, the varying slack of coupler designs means you will have a total slack from about 4 to 16 inches dependent on coupler choice. Offering this performance out of the box: Bachmann 9F, Hattons Beyer-Garratt, Heljan O2, (and most likely 47xx, not had one to play with) Hornby Britannia, and I have heard good reports of the P2. (Ye olde H-D Stanier 8F just walks away with such a load too.) It is possible to add weight to lighter models to make them capable: all my RTR Doncaster pacifics for a start, the Bach Pepp A1s on my layout have been operating near 20 years weighted to 600g, not a single problem to date. The real railway could do it, so our models should too! 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hat Posted July 27, 2020 Share Posted July 27, 2020 Echo the calls for the B16, 1, 2 or 3. If you want goods moving then you need Q7. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SweenyTod1 Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 On 26/07/2020 at 12:02, 34theletterbetweenB&D said: They didn't. At the end of the war they were broken up, the boilers going to pacifics being upgraded from A1 to A3, the tenders to other locos, and all the other useable components re-used in Doncaster works standard fashion, all here: https://www.lner.info/locos/P/p1.php Like you I would prefer more of the small pre group LNER black locos in common service, of which there are a plenitude to choose among. They both were rebuilt in 1942 becoming P1/2 after being fitted with A3 boilers. Thompson scrapped them in 1945. I don't have my RTCS books to hand, away from home just now, but I think the boosters were removed or disconnected during the rebuild. I have a Crownline kit I've had for many years awaiting building. The boiler unit is a Hornby A1 body which has to have its footplate removed and replaced by the etched brass one supplied. My DJH U1 Garret (two motors) will pull the world!!! Tod Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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