Non member view and thoughts about the Gauge O guild

[Happy Hippo]

19 minutes ago, 81A Oldoak said:

 

Indeed. The G0G is the only club I know where the members proudly display their membership number as a symbol of their seniority. A four-figure membership number seems to denote a demi-god status deserving the genuflection of the callow youths in their 60s.

 

So it was bad form for me to  use the Army system of abbreviating my number to the last three after my name? (ie Jones 023)

 

No wonder they all grovel!

[Paul Cram]

26 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

If a group of O Gauge modellers would like to run a Society, why not start a new one, rather than launch a coup in an existing one?

 

Such power grabs usually end badly, with splits and factions. Some of the comments on here are already very unpleasant.

 

The Guild isn't perfect but they put on good shows and have a really good magazine.

 

I really feel for people who take on unpaid volunteer roles running such organisations, often with no special ability other than being willing and keen. They certainly need thick skins.

 

I am a relatively new member but quickly became aware of some of the political back biting that goes on in such organisations. It is a shame as over the years, the Guild has worked wonders in keeping 7mm modelling alive. Every such organisation needs to evolve and recent issues of the Gazette make it clear that those running it are fully aware of that.

 

I just hope that any infighting or coup attempt doesn't do more harm than good.

 

If the powers that be get a free weekend in Telford as a reward for their efforts and time, I don't have much of a problem with that. I would happily offer them that as a gesture of thanks for the work they do.

 

 

 

 

Look what that did for P4

[Oldddudders]

27 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 Telford - it's hardly Davos, is it?

But, oddly, the place does have a connection with our hobby. The chief architect of the Telford Development Corporation, Donald Pearse, who I knew well, was also an enthusiast, and after retirement took up manufacture of wooden rolling stock kits for larger scales. He also had a connection with a model steam loco manufacturer in Llanfair Caerinion, and his son Ian has a key role in live-steam manufacture today, having initially had a team building such locos in an old stable at Donald's house in Church Stretton.

 

As for members wearing their number with pride, I think I once knew LCGB member No 7, a senior train planner, now that's seniority! 

[jcm@gwr]

5 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

If a group of O Gauge modellers would like to run a Society, why not start a new one, rather than launch a coup in an existing one?

 

Such power grabs usually end badly, with splits and factions. Some of the comments on here are already very unpleasant.

 

The Guild isn't perfect but they put on good shows and have a really good magazine.

 

I really feel for people who take on unpaid volunteer roles running such organisations, often with no special ability other than being willing and keen. They certainly need thick skins.

 

I am a relatively new member but quickly became aware of some of the political back biting that goes on in such organisations. It is a shame as over the years, the Guild has worked wonders in keeping 7mm modelling alive. Every such organisation needs to evolve and recent issues of the Gazette make it clear that those running it are fully aware of that.

 

I just hope that any infighting or coup attempt doesn't do more harm than good.

 

If the powers that be get a free weekend in Telford as a reward for their efforts and time, I don't have much of a problem with that. I would happily offer them that as a gesture of thanks for the work they do.

 

 

 

 

 

I know I shouldn't be adding to this thread, as I'm a member of the guild,

and I'm supporting the Reform Group.

But, your comments about the free weekend didn't sit comfortably with me,

I understand the sentiment behind what you say, but you would not believe

how many management members (and their wives) seem to be needed to put

on a show, and therefore needed accommodation, breakfast and an evening

meal, for 3 days! (it's a 2 day show).

I would suggest you have a bit more of a dig through some of the forum and 

do some fact checking about costs and expenses, then come back and see if

you want to revise/review/rewrite your comments.

[Happy Hippo]

34 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

If a group of O Gauge modellers would like to run a Society, why not start a new one, rather than launch a coup in an existing one?

I did suggest that if the 'old guard' continue to dominate the G0G after the next AGM then perhaps something along the lines of 'The 7mm Scale Society' running as a web based organisation might be an alternative.

[Nearholmer]

Well chaps, one sort of club I don’t want to join is one riven with arguments, especially arguments about money that become dirty linen washed in public.
 

This plays exactly to my stereotyped view of the G0G.

 

Settle the arguments, set out the new stall, then you might get new members.

[The Johnster]

55 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Understood. Big fish in small pond. I was just being naughty. Telford - it's hardly Davos, is it?

Davos is an exclusive reservation for people with too much wealth and power, and as such would be high on my list for a direct nuclear strike; give me Telford any day.  You can always go for a walk up the Wrekin; best views in England I’m told! 
 

I remember the Gay Joe Guild being thought of as a bit ‘Colonel Blimp’ back in the 60s, so it’s good to hear that  traditions are being upheld.  Clubs which are run for and by a small group of individuals at the expense of the rank and file usually implode or fail for lack of rank and file to lord it over, and are not restricted to 7mm scale, but, to give these guys credit, they’ve lasted the course.  My suspicion is that a new society more accepting of callow youth and it’s RTR small locos will render them as obsolete as they’ve always appeared!

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by The Johnster

[Mr.S.corn78]

I was a member a few years ago and left due for several reasons including miss managment, lack of intrest at the time by the guild in 70s, 80s & 90s scene in the in house mag.

 

I did send a letter explaining my reservations and the reasons why I left at the time and I never got a acknowlagement to it. I know its not a big thing getting a reply but even just an email saying sorry you have left.

 

The only other group that i left did send a email about 4 years after i left saying they had noticed i had not rejoined and asked for my reasons why and when i sent them i got a rude email back but at least they contcated me.

[PaulRhB]

47 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

If a group of O Gauge modellers would like to run a Society, why not start a new one, rather than launch a coup in an existing one?

 

 

10 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

if the 'old guard' continue to dominate the G0G after the next AGM then perhaps something along the lines of 'The 7mm Scale Society

Well you could say changing from within is always the best option rather than start again too. Throwing away the good bits as well inevitably sets up divisions and more competition  

 

53 minutes ago, 81A Oldoak said:

G0G is the only club I know where the members proudly display their membership number as a symbol of their seniority

Oh I’ve seen it at a local level too, there was a proposal to wear badges on club nights which I wasn’t opposed to particularly although I think in a friendly club you can just introduce yourself and it had worked for years. What I objected to was the ‘member since’ years being displayed larger than the name! (And I have one of the earlier numbers so it wasn’t me trying to show off!  )

[Nearholmer]

Not all ‘mature’ and long-standing members of G0G that I’ve met are puffed-up old f*rts, most aren’t, and I can think of one who is a regular contributor to The Gazette, has a large garden railway at which he hosts very convivial running sessions, knows more than most people have forgotten, and is exceedingly cheery and friendly.
 

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Nearholmer

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Lantavian said:

 

In that case your views are particularly valuable.

 

Why did you join? Are you getting the benefits you expected? Is it value for money?

 

What would you like to change: a fresh pair of eyes may see things that people who've been in an organisation for a long time may miss because they've got used to the way things are.

 

 

 

I have worked mainly in EM Gauge for 40years or so but having been asked to build a few 0 Gauge models for others, I got the bug and bought up some kits as my beloved GCR was well represented by Gladiator and David Andrews. I joined mainly because I had been to three or for shows and realised that the difference between paying full non member price and member price meant that membership was very cost effective. I had seen copies of the magazine too and it seemed to be more like a commercial publication than a society one.

 

Personally, I have never seen any of this "Demi God glory hunting" behaviour described by others. I have always found everybody I have met and spoken with most welcoming and friendly and I instantly felt like I "belonged". I have heard that one or two area groups are a bit "sniffy" towards new faces but it isn't something that I have encountered on my limited encounters. I can understand it. Not everybody fits well into all social groups and to expect an established small group to change and adapt to incorporate a newcomer who may not agree with all their ideas is asking a lot. I have been at clubs when new members have arrived and instantly set about telling them all what they are doing wrong. "You don't want to d it like that". So they end up going away with tales of "newcomers not being welcome"

 

My worry is that in the past, both model railway related and work related, I have seen many situations where people see fault with an organisation and set out to kick it up the backside by launching some sort of take over or power grab. I cannot ever recall an attempt to change things in this way that ended well. We used to have a thriving model railway club in my local town. Some members didn't like the way it was run and left to set up a new one. The new one folded after a while and the original one was left in a much worse condition than it had been before.

 

It is not that long ago that 7mm modelling was dying on its feet. A big part of the return of the scale in such a big way is down to the Guild. I just seems a bit "off" to me to now say "You chaps built up not only the Guild but 7mm modelling as a whole from nothing and we now have a good bank balance, good shows and a good magazine but we don't like the way you are running it so we will try to get you out and take it off you".

 

Which is how it appears to me.

 

However I can see the situation from both sides. I can see how the Guild could be perceived as a bit of an "old boy" network. When there is a firmly entrenched "old guard" it can be difficult to instigate change, even when it is clearly needed. Recent Gazette issues do seem t indicate that the powers that be do recognise the need to change things. Maybe it is like getting a tanker to turn but the right noises are being made.

 

My preference would be for evolution rather than revolution. Come up with positive suggestions for change rather than "Depose the self glorifying Demi Gods" which is hardly constructive and helpful language!

 

If you look back in history, "Gangs of 4" trying to change the world do not have a great track record!     

[Jeremy Cumberland]

I do not model 0 gauge, but I had been toying with the idea over the past couple of years. Up till now, I had heard generally favorable reports of the G0G, as opposed to generally negative ones of the G1MRA which is also at the periphery of my interests, and would probably have joined had I decided to pursue 0 gauge modelling.

 

However, reading this thread would certainly have put me off. Apart from the anecdotes from @SteveyDee68 and others, which might be attributable to a few individuals in isolated clubs/branches and not be reflective of the GoG as a whole, the idea of using a public forum for electioneering purposes seems objectionable to me.

 

It would seem to me to be more honest to win your arguments from within (and in private), get yourselves elected, and then ask non-members what they would like to see, while at the same time saying what great things the G0G does, and keeping quiet about any divisions that might exist within the Guild.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Jeremy C

[jamie92208]

I've just found this thread and read through it. I've been a member for I think, over 20 years now. I joined not long after I got the O Gauge bug and sold most of my 00 stuff. I joined for advice and access to the articles and such things as the manual, all of which I got.  I was made welcome but was aware of some elitist behaviour. Fortunately  I have a fairly thick skin.  

 

I became aware of disquiet about expenses and management and was asked to join the Association of Large Scale Modellers (ALSRM I think). This I believe was founded and promoted by at least one disgruntled trader. I declined the offer of membership as I have always believed that it is better to change organisations from within.

 

A few years ago I got involved in selling parts of the estate of a friend and ended up as a helper on the Bring and Buy stall. I was made welcome there and have made many friends within the Guild but have never wanted to becone involved in the politics. I have also had the pleasure of meeting Jack Ray who helped found the guild who was a perfect Gentleman who only had words of encouragement for me when I was having troubles with Long Preston. One of the other single number members, who was at the founding meeting at Euston Station,  is also a regular contributor to the Bring and Buy stall, invariably polite and a pleasure to talk to. 

 

I am also aware that some people do seem to require a lot of expenses. However this is not exclusive to the Guild as I know from my time as an exhibition manager. However there are many who either don't claim or get minimum reccompense for 2 or 3 days of hard work and several hundred miles of travelling. Most, to my knowledge pay for their own evening meals.

 

The Guild has changed during the time that I have been a member and has survived at least two major upheavals. For any organisation to survive, change has to happen. Without the Guild I doubt that 7mm modelling would be as popular as it now is.

 

I can certainly concur with StevieDee' comments about test tracks. I took my Union Pacific 4-8-4 to a show that sounds just like that. The same pacifics and rakes seemed to appear every year. Soneone did, with great disdain, allow it to pull 3 LMS suburbans. However his grandson thought it was brilliant. With a look that suggested I had terrible BO, I was allowed to let it haul a rake of heavy Pullmans. The old guy said "They're very heavy, are you sure it will pull them." The loco, which weighs about 11 lbs, just walked away without a trace of a slip. The grandson was trying desperately not to laugh and the grandad just walked away. I was very amused and did give some strong feedback about attitudes and making people welcome.

 

Anyway, my ramblings have gone on long enough.  I hope that the Guild does change but also that in the process the baby is not thrown out with the bathwater.

 

Jamie

Edited July 13, 2020 by jamie92208

[t-b-g]

22 minutes ago, Jeremy C said:

I do not model 0 gauge, but I had been toying with the idea over the past couple of years. Up till now, I had heard generally favorable reports of the G0G, as opposed to generally negative ones of the G1MRA which is also at the periphery of my interests, and would probably have joined had I decided to pursue 0 gauge modelling.

 

However, reading this thread would certainly have put me off. Apart from the anecdotes from @SteveyDee68 and others, which might be attributable to a few individuals in isolated clubs/branches and not be reflective of the GoG as a whole, the idea of using a public forum for electioneering purposes seems objectionable to me.

 

It would seem to me to be more honest to win your arguments from within (and in private), get yourselves elected, and then ask non-members what they would like to see, while at the same time saying what great things the G0G does, and keeping quiet about any divisions that might exist within the Guild.

 

Well said. I had heard of some of these concerns before I joined but I thought I would sign up and judge it on my own experience rather than tales from disgruntled folk who wish things were done differently.

 

I have never regretted it for a moment.

[Arun Sharma]

1 hour ago, Jeremy C said:

I do not model 0 gauge, but I had been toying with the idea over the past couple of years. Up till now, I had heard generally favorable reports of the G0G, as opposed to generally negative ones of the G1MRA which is also at the periphery of my interests, and would probably have joined had I decided to pursue 0 gauge modelling.

 

However, reading this thread would certainly have put me off. Apart from the anecdotes from @SteveyDee68 and others, which might be attributable to a few individuals in isolated clubs/branches and not be reflective of the GoG as a whole, the idea of using a public forum for electioneering purposes seems objectionable to me.

 

It would seem to me to be more honest to win your arguments from within (and in private), get yourselves elected, and then ask non-members what they would like to see, while at the same time saying what great things the G0G does, and keeping quiet about any divisions that might exist within the Guild.

It is probably worth pointing out for the sake of clarity that the Gauge 0 Guild does NOT have any branches or affiliated clubs.

It is simply an international organisation of individual 7mm modellers who receive a quarterly Gazette [i.e., magazine] and which organises three annual shows currently at Telford, Kettering and Doncaster for its members.

There are 0gauge groups within many local model railway clubs nationwide and, individually, some of their members may also be members of the G0G. It is not unknown for the G0G to offer grants to some clubs towards items such as 7mm test tracks but these clubs are not part of the Guild.

Organisations such as the Guildford Group and Bristol 0 Gauge Group are not part of the Guild though may well have received start up grants from the G0G for their trade shows in the past. That their shows thrive clearly suggest that 7mm modelling exists both within and without the Guild.

Thus for correspondents in this thread to have said that G0G 'groups' have not made them welcome is a fundamental misrepresentation of reality as no such 'sponsored' groups exist. Indeed an invariable condition of the G0G giving a grant to a 7mm team inside a local MRC is that all are made welcome to use the facility [such as a test track]. 

If someone has been made to feel unwelcome at one of the three G0G organised shows, then that is quite a different matter and IMO unforgivable. 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Arun Sharma

[Barry O]

1 hour ago, Lantavian said:

I'd love to know

 

1) How many members does the GOG have?

 

2) How many O-gauge modellers are there in the UK, and beyond?

 

3) What is the  share of O gauge in the model railway market in the UK?

 

 

i think quite a few people would like to know number 1 and 3. Number 2 would be hard to assess.

 

 

[Barry O]

3 minutes ago, Lantavian said:

 

I would hope that makers of O-gauge stuff would have an idea of how many O-gauge modellers there are and their demographics.

 

They may know how many people buy it but how many people use it is a different matter.

[Neil]

I'm an outsider, not into O gauge. It strikes me that no one over the last couple of pages (and the reform group manifesto) has said what the core purpose of the Gauge O Guild is, why it exists and why it should continue to exist. Maybe some/most of the dissatisfaction stems from this lack of clarity. Is it an organisation which had relevance in the past but that times have moved on and left it struggling for purpose? I hope that someone will be able to say' this is what we do and this is why you should join'.

[t-b-g]

4 minutes ago, Neil said:

I'm an outsider, not into O gauge. It strikes me that no one over the last couple of pages (and the reform group manifesto) has said what the core purpose of the Gauge O Guild is, why it exists and why it should continue to exist. Maybe some/most of the dissatisfaction stems from this lack of clarity. Is it an organisation which had relevance in the past but that times have moved on and left it struggling for purpose? I hope that someone will be able to say' this is what we do and this is why you should join'.

 

For an organisation portrayed as some kind of dinosaur, they have a nice website with a clear statement that they exist to further all modelling in 7mm scale. It also clearly states that there are in excess of 5500 members including more than 500 abroad.

 

There is a nice section listing all the benefits of membership too.

 

Hardly a secret society!

[N15class]

18 minutes ago, Barry O said:

i think quite a few people would like to know number 1 and 3. Number 2 would be hard to assess.

 

 

 

There are about 5000+ members. 

O gauge modelling is quite a low percentage in railway modelling.

[t-b-g]

Just now, Lantavian said:

 

Fair points.

 

But how many of those benefits can you get from not being a member of the organisation?

 

Forums like this go a long way, to providing exchange of information. And you can set up a closed Facebook group for networking for free. Pictures of layouts are all over the web and videos on YouTube are multiplying ... I suspect slide shows are going out of fashion. 

 

The only unique benefit I saw was this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Which is presently being run down due to the lack of volunteers to run it.

 

As usual, it relies on volunteers willing to give up their time for no reward apart from getting criticised by others. I would think that they possibly get "first dibbs" on what comes in but I happen to know somebody involved with the scheme and the time they put in is considerable.

 

There is, as far as I know, only the Guild catering for all forms of 7mm modelling, from collecting old models through to the finest of fine scale. That, the shows and the magazine are enough for me. I don't need them to reinvent the wheel and come up with something that no other gauge society has.

[t-b-g]

2 minutes ago, Lantavian said:

 

Well, as long as there enough people who feel the same and want to join, then the organisation has nothing to worry about.

 

But I suspect that younger enthusiasts may have very different views.

 

 

 

 

I joke with my friends that when we go to a regular model railway show, the average age is around 60. Go to a specialist show like a EMGS or GOG do and it goes to 70. Model engineering shows take it to 80!

 

A sweeping generalisation I know.

 

I went to show last year just to see what was all about. It was a 7mm "modern" show in that it was all post steam. The exhibitors and visitors were of a much younger age and I probably dragged the average up a bit but the wall to wall RTR plus loud DCC sound made realise I had stumbled into something I wasn't mentally equipped to deal with and I left with my friends after less than an hour, of which at least half was spent in the cafe drinking tea.

 

If that is the future of O Gauge, I want nothing to do with it!

 

To be slightly more serious, I would never say that all is well at the GOG and that nothing needs to change and modernise. There are clearly enough people who are unhappy to be able to say that. It is seen as a society for those of a certain age but in truth, most model railway societies are exactly that. There is no more prospect of a flood of younger members in 7mm as there is in any scale. I didn't join until my late 50s and several of my friends have joined later than that. It is just the way the hobby is. Most "new" modellers I am aware of are people looking for a hobby when they retire from work.

 

I am simply responding to a request for experiences in saying that I am happy enough as a member and feel that a total change in direction and leadership may do more harm than good.

 

 

[Izzy]

4 minutes ago, Lantavian said:

 

Well, as long as there enough people who feel the same and want to join, then the organisation has nothing to worry about.

 

But I suspect that younger enthusiasts may have very different views.

 

 

 

Then as has been said perhaps they should start their own group/society/guild/association if they feel that everything should be just exactly the way they want. That is what others have done in the past, and why such as the GOG exist today, through others past efforts. 

 

I seem to remember this kind of feeling existed decades ago back when I was a GOG member, always someone who though they aught to be in control rather than who actually was because it should be exactly and only as they wanted.
 

Izzy

 

 

 

 

 

[fail safe]

just seen this and new here but interested in o gauge now its getting more popular with all the RTR, not a member of the guild and i cant say why i would join just now. theres plenty of free groups elsewhere like facebook and on here to pick up all the things i need to know. always thought the name guild sounds a bit like an old gentleman club. I've been to a few of their shows in the past and they were ok but you could see it was for older people. could have done with more modern stuff to look at but thats just me. looked at their magazine on a stand it looked a bit out of date and nothing in it for me. best thing i could see was on their website was a trade web directory. never realised there were so many. maybe like some people say if they are trying to modernise it that would be a good thing.

[Happy Hippo]

4 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

 

 

I went to show last year just to see what was all about. It was a 7mm "modern" show in that it was all post steam. The exhibitors and visitors were of a much younger age and I probably dragged the average up a bit but the wall to wall RTR plus loud DCC sound made realise I had stumbled into something I wasn't mentally equipped to deal with and I left with my friends after less than an hour, of which at least half was spent in the cafe drinking tea.

 

If that is the future of O Gauge, I want nothing to do with it!

I can understand your sentiments:  However, I went to that same show and loved it, as did my travelling companions, all of whom are 60+ and think the world ended when steam was abolished on the BR(W).  What you might have been too blinkered to see because of the shock of RTR and  loud DCC sound was the incredible enthusiasm that was being generated. (I just turned my ear trumpets down a bit.)

 

I was sad when this years show was cancelled, but am looking forward to the substitute on line show  they are planning.

 

As you can see,  7mm modelling is very much changing, one might say it is fragmenting into factions, with MIOG, the S7 crowd as examples of where the G0G  really dropped the ball,  by not trying to capture these elements  and use them  to help revitalise the Guild.

 

As it stands, they are lost to the cause, and in the case of MIOG, will continue to attract a younger generation to whom the steam era holds no interest.

 

The other point that may be of some relevance is the MIOG appears to be a group run without membership fees. (At least, I can't find any information on such via their website.)