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Non member view and thoughts about the Gauge O guild


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2 hours ago, sir douglas said:

 

for (currently) £21 a year you get 4 magazines a year, same as other magazines, articles, reviews and adverts, the emphasis on the trader adverts. there are a number of exhbitions a year but you may only be able to get to your nearest depending on where you live. the exhibitons provide a £5 discount entry to members of the standard £10. the exhibitions are mostly traders, i think Doncaster is about 50 traders to 5 layouts. there is an oval test track that any member can use. if you want sell anything go to the Bring & buy stand which runs on a 15% commission. and of course a chance to talk to people and share ideas.

 

thats how i see it anyway

As a non member I am intrigued as to what the GOG does with the revenue it raises from trader adverts, Commission on B&B etc ?

 

As a committee member of a line society we are accutely aware that the members should only pay the minimum required to receive their benefits. We do make money from publications but that is used to maintain archive material.

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10 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

I was really quite disappointed to read that the financial side of the show wasn't working and that things may have to change.

 

 

Things are already changing as a result of the previous losses at Telford but despite numerous requests on the Guild Forum, the membership has still not been advised of the details about the 2019 show. Although the 2020 exhibition has recently been cancelled, non-members may not be aware that the date was changed from early September to the August BH weekend to save a reported £15,000 but we were not told any of the other costs or options to reduce expenditure in other areas. In 2021, the exhibition will be at Stafford Showground making use of the Bingley Hall (not the buildings used by the Stafford Show). 

 

EDIT - sorry I had the Stafford show as 2011 and not 2021 . . . . . . . . 

.

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I have joined the GOG three times over the years, but have never renewed a membership.

 

The magazine is pretty good, the O Gauge enthusiasts I am acquainted with are mainly pretty OK...

 

But...  there is (or was) something about "the guild" that always seemed to suggest (perhaps only to me!!) that it was a bit of an "old boys club" where they let others in; maybe to share the costs....

 

someone back up the thread suggested they "liked  Pacifics" and thats the feeling I got - The rest of the Railway was inconsequential as long as the engines were mainline ones, and big ones at that.

 

There is nothing wrong with that of course, but its not what I like.

 

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17 minutes ago, Arun Sharma said:

So what if it does duplicate the 7mmNGA? As a member of S7, G0G and 7mmNGA, I have no problems incorporating elements of narrow gauge railways in standard gauge layouts and dioramas. How else might you model the two adjacent stations at Minffordd ?

 

There’s no problem, I’m just not sure if another 7mm NG society would be needed. The only issue that could arise is if the splitting of potential members between two groups made one of them less viable, although I suspect overall that’s neither here nor there. I just thought that initially it would seem better to focus on aspects of 7mm scale not already covered by other groups.

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20 minutes ago, Arun Sharma said:

 

So what if it does duplicate the 7mmNGA? As a member of S7, G0G and 7mmNGA, I have no problems incorporating elements of narrow gauge railways in standard gauge layouts and dioramas. How else might you model the two adjacent stations at Minffordd ?

 

 

I agree with Arun - I am sure that in the OO9 Society, you have members who also belong to DOGA, EMGS, S4 Soc etc.

 

In fact David Rae (Dava) models both standard gauge and narrow gauge (with layouts in O9, O14 and O21) - here I need to declare an interest as a supporter of the aims of the Reform Group as I proposed David for the position of Chairman.

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7 minutes ago, Mike Bellamy said:

 

I agree with Arun - I am sure that in the OO9 Society, you have members who also belong to DOGA, EMGS, S4 Soc etc.

 

Of course we do - it’s just that DOGA, for instance, does not have an 009 section; there wouldn’t seem to be much point. Despite the name, the 009 Society also has members working in other 00/H0 narrow gauges (00n3 etc). We also have members who model narrow gauge in other scales, and are members of the relevant groups for this. Perhaps it’s the name Gauge 0 Guild that creates the perception that it is mostly for 7mm standard gauge. Obviously there are always going to be intersections between different groups - US-outline 0n30 ties in with both the 7mm NGA and Slim Gauge Circle, for instance. I suppose the question is ‘what could G0G offer to NG modellers that a specifically narrow gauge society wouldn’t?’

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Looking at the Reform Groups prospectus that was attached way back in this topic it has some curious contradictions. Up front it says,

Quote

We believe the Guild can develop a renewed future as an attractive 7mm Finescale* Modellers’ Association, by being open, innovative and appealing to all modellers in the scale.

And the asterix is referenced in a footnote several pages later as

Quote

*Finescale is characterised by wheels with a Back-Back of 29mm or greater, used by well known manufacturers of rolling stock, track and wheels.

So they wish to appeal to all modellers in the scale, if they use a wheel back to back of 29 mm or greater. So inclusive of S7 or Broad guage, but certainly not tinplate or narrow gauge. Does not seem particiularly inclusive or logical to me.

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19 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

So they wish to appeal to all modellers in the scale, if they use a wheel back to back of 29 mm or greater. So inclusive of S7 or Broad guage, but certainly not tinplate or narrow gauge. Does not seem particiularly inclusive or logical to me.

The reference to 29mm back to back is only used as a working definition of finescale, not a qualification on membership. It functions solely as a distinction from coarse scale and the so-called "standard scale". Narrow gauge can still be modelled in finescale just as much as standard gauge can.

 

Jim

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As a former member of the G0G, a long time ago, my abiding memory is of all those involved being welcoming to, and tolerant of, a clueless teenager with a motley collection of Triang, Lima and bodgery. My local group had others with similar assortments, along with at least one chap with a magnificent collection of professionally built fine scale stock, several folk with substantial coarse scale layouts, amassed when 0 gauge stuff was undesirable and so relatively affordable, and at least a couple of accomplished model engineers building live steamers. Everyone got a go, whether their contribution wS a badly built 3H wagon kit (me), an out of the box Atlas diesel, or a Korean brass pannier (and that was a thing of wonder to all). Snobbery about having a 4-digit (or any number of digits) membership number didn't seem to be a thing, as we all had 4-digit numbers back then. I was also privileged to meet a number of the Guild's founders and they were, without memorable exception, lovely people. 

 

It saddens me greatly that others' experience of the G0G has not been so positive or inclusive, and I truly wonder what has happened to it in the intervening 40 years. 

 

Pat Brown

Former G0G Member 2791

Founder member Somerset 0 Gauge Group

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I am reading this thread with much interest, and spoke with my mum about having posted earlier. She corrected me on one point - the ladies in the kitchen were not wives, partners or girlfriends of the modellers, but were from the church whose hall was being used! Another observation she passed on - to get a hot pie (!) you needed to put your name down on a first come/first served basis, and it seemed to her that a there was a clique within the group that whoever arrived first put names down for the others to ensure they got pies, rather than the “fair” system of first come/first served! (How’s about that for a non-member observation!!  LOL!!) 
 

Talking about benefits of membership, I notice that the 2mm Association have models (RTR/kit etc) only available to members - a Hunslet industrial diesel shunter springs to mind - but I don’t see the GOG offering anything like that.  Traders may offer discounts to members but that isn’t the same as something produced by the Guild for Guild members, either RTR or a kit.  (I expect to be corrected on this!)

 

For example, in the August edition of Model Rail magazine, it lists the top ten “big” and “small” locos and the H&R DS shunter is listed as being unavailable in 7mm scale.  Given its tiny size and therefore excellent motive power for an O gauge micro, could not the GOG commission a model available only to members as a massive incentive to become a member?  It could be RTR, but maybe a *simple* and relatively low priced kit might be a better introduction into the delights of the scale?

 

I would sign up for that! Despite my previous poor experience! But when I say “simple” kit, I don’t mean etched brass! My (previous) perception of GOG is that there is an expectation that I should already be proficient with a soldering iron before even daring to speak!!

 

My idea of a “simple” kit would be: resin cast details, a screw-together idiot-proof chassis (sideframes, spacers, wheels, pickups etc), a fold-up gearbox to make use of a readily available motor (eg the Hornby 0-4-0 mechanism), and full size drawings with the appropriate thickness plasticard from which to cut components! Soldering should be limited to wiring in the motor to the pickups, but if possible a non-soldering solution should also be devised. Such a kit could be a gentle introduction and palpable benefit to joining the Guild, a step away from RTR but not requiring a rocket-science skill set!!*
 

Just another middle of the night thought!!

 

Steve S

 

 

 

* Maybe it is just me, but soldering remains “rocket science” for the moment!!

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4 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

I am reading this thread with much interest, and spoke with my mum about having posted earlier. She corrected me on one point - the ladies in the kitchen were not wives, partners or girlfriends of the modellers, but were from the church whose hall was being used! Another observation she passed on - to get a hot pie (!) you needed to put your name down on a first come/first served basis, and it seemed to her that a there was a clique within the group that whoever arrived first put names down for the others to ensure they got pies, rather than the “fair” system of first come/first served! (How’s about that for a non-member observation!!  LOL!!) 
 

Talking about benefits of membership, I notice that the 2mm Association have models (RTR/kit etc) only available to members - a Hunslet industrial diesel shunter springs to mind - but I don’t see the GOG offering anything like that.  Traders may offer discounts to members but that isn’t the same as something produced by the Guild for Guild members, either RTR or a kit.  (I expect to be corrected on this!)

 

For example, in the August edition of Model Rail magazine, it lists the top ten “big” and “small” locos and the H&R DS shunter is listed as being unavailable in 7mm scale.  Given its tiny size and therefore excellent motive power for an O gauge micro, could not the GOG commission a model available only to members as a massive incentive to become a member?  It could be RTR, but maybe a *simple* and relatively low priced kit might be a better introduction into the delights of the scale?

 

I would sign up for that! Despite my previous poor experience! But when I say “simple” kit, I don’t mean etched brass! My (previous) perception of GOG is that there is an expectation that I should already be proficient with a soldering iron before even daring to speak!!

 

My idea of a “simple” kit would be: resin cast details, a screw-together idiot-proof chassis (sideframes, spacers, wheels, pickups etc), a fold-up gearbox to make use of a readily available motor (eg the Hornby 0-4-0 mechanism), and full size drawings with the appropriate thickness plasticard from which to cut components! Soldering should be limited to wiring in the motor to the pickups, but if possible a non-soldering solution should also be devised. Such a kit could be a gentle introduction and palpable benefit to joining the Guild, a step away from RTR but not requiring a rocket-science skill set!!*
 

Just another middle of the night thought!!

 

Steve S

 

 

 

* Maybe it is just me, but soldering remains “rocket science” for the moment!!

DJH did a starter kit. Pre folded chassis and whitemetal castings (which you could glue together) with all the bits you needed to build it. It was for a British Rail 02 0-4-0 Diesel Shunter. They no longer supply the kit (articles on building one are on RMWeb) .

 

Their next "starter" kit a Drewery 04 shunter is also being discontinued  (RRP £400+)

 

So it has been tried before.

 

Baz

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As an outsider, my honest view of the Guild is that it is stuffy and elitist organisation.  I’d struggle to put my finger on what has given my that impression though, it’s probably a view I’ve picked up from others rather than one I’ve had sufficient experience to form myself.  Reading through some of the comments in this thread though, I’m not alone.

 

For context, I’m a life-long 4mm modeller, who has been modelling in EM and (more recently) P4 for the past 20 years.  Like many others I’ve seen (and been impressed by) recent developments in RTR O Gauge (or should that be Gauge O?) and wouldn’t rule out a small 7mm scale shunting plank at some point.  If I did, being in my mid-40s, I guess I’m the sort of “youngster” that the Guild might want to encourage to join.  To be honest though, I’m not sure why I would - it’s not clear to me what the benefits of membership are?

 

I’m a member of both EMGS and S4Soc; as such I can see the advantages of joining S7 Group if I was looking to go down that route as a 7mm modeller, but (from my own personal perspective) I’m not sure I see the need to be a member of a general O Gauge group/society/guild.  Like many perspective members I’ve already cut my teeth in finescale modelling in another scale/gauge so wonder what gap membership of the Guild would fill?  I think I’d be more inclined to take my inspiration from online forums or find a local club with an active O Gauge group.

 

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42 minutes ago, Barry O said:

DJH did a starter kit. Pre folded chassis and whitemetal castings (which you could glue together) with all the bits you needed to build it. It was for a British Rail 02 0-4-0 Diesel Shunter. They no longer supply the kit (articles on building one are on RMWeb) .

 

Their next "starter" kit a Drewery 04 shunter is also being discontinued  (RRP £400+)

 

So it has been tried before.

 

Baz

 

Tower Models still have their starter kits, a class 02 diesel shunter,

and an Andrew Barclay 0-4-0ST, both come complete with all you

need, and are only £250 each, so it can be done.

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11 minutes ago, jcm@gwr said:

 

Tower Models still have their starter kits, a class 02 diesel shunter,

and an Andrew Barclay 0-4-0ST, both come complete with all you

need, and are only £250 each, so it can be done.

02 builds up well - my first 7mm effort - and has plenty of room for sound if you are that way inclined.

31942635117_fb5f93a599_c.jpg

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49 minutes ago, jcm@gwr said:

 

Tower Models still have their starter kits, a class 02 diesel shunter,

and an Andrew Barclay 0-4-0ST, both come complete with all you

need, and are only £250 each, so it can be done.

That highlights how the scale is changing - or in the views of some, 'dumbing down'.

Why bother with a kit - starter or otherwise - at £250 to £400-plus, when there are some great R-T-R locos available now at £200 or less?  A person no longer has to be a skilled kitbuilder to get into O Scale, which some of the 'old guard' resent massively.

For myself, I grew up detailing, repainting and weathering Hornby, Lima and other 4mm diesels in the 1970s & '80s. Some years ago now when I put forward the idea online that a 7mm range of 'basic but accurate' diesels might do well - the bodyshell etc being accurate to shape, but the details were left for the modeller to add - I was very roundly shot down. A 'basic' version of a Heljan diesel, much cheaper, would suit me, as they mostly remain beyond my price range. I must admit that I am surprised how popular they have become, despite ever-increasing prices; clearly enough people are happy to buy them fully-finished - so I wonder if the market has skipped a generation and is appealling to those who modelled 4mm in the early 2000's when the current standard of fully-finished locos was being set in that scale?!

Of course, the original Skytrex (no link to the current owner) introduced a range of 'basic' diesels, but they missed their target by being rather crude bodyshells, but sold at (then) Heljan prices!!!

When my lad was younger & came to Guildex with me, he used to like the 'Kid's Layout' - after all it had the most action on it by far, lots of robust old Triang & Lima stuff rattling around, plus gems like the very smooth Rivarossi German 0-6-0 steam tank. Unfortunately, nowhere in the Show was any of this stuff available for sale - not at sensible prices, anyway - and he soon cottoned on that O Scale was not for him, as there was nothing available at pocket-money prices - £5 for a Lima wagon*, £10 for coach, and so on. Again, evidence to me of a prevailing "O Scale MUST be expensive" attitude, & when I tried to raise this online I was stamped on again by some - "no market", "toy trains" etc.... well my lad went to N Scale, and in the last few years has lost interest completely, so another youngster lost to the hobby.

Some of these matters perhaps go beyond the scope of any internal Guild issues, but to my mind do show how irrelevant it is becoming has become; something of a shame after it's sterling work in past decades.

 

*Don't laugh. That's the sort of price I paid for them, around 18 years ago.

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1 minute ago, F-UnitMad said:

That highlights how the scale is changing - or in the views of some, 'dumbing down'.

Why bother with a kit - starter or otherwise - at £250 to £400-plus, when there are some great R-T-R locos available now at £200 or less?  A person no longer has to be a skilled kitbuilder to get into O Scale, which some of the 'old guard' resent massively.

I moved to O Gauge because I enjoy building things.

C

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I was a GOG member for a number of years but left when I realised that it offered me no benefit. I did go the Telford every year but it was mainly a shopping trip. When I first started to attend in the late 90s I was rather disappointed by the basic nature of layouts compared to what was being achieved in other scales. My impression was that 0 gauge was all about following correct railway practice rather than creating a nice model and just having fun. I do think things have moved on since but that is mainly due to the big expansion in the RTR market and the availability of laser cut scenic items etc. My understanding is that the guild was originally founded to support a dyeing scale and provide clockwork springs, we now have terrific trade support so what is the need of a specialist guild? I am a member of S4 soc and can see the need for societies which supply niche products for specific areas of modelling but now that 0 gauge is firmly established I cannot see the need for 7mm support. As has been pointed out above, 00 gauge doesn't need a specific society as it is is well supported and I think 0 gauge is now in a similar position. The world has changed since the Guild was founded, with the prevalence of online groups and information I can no longer see what purpose it serves. 

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4 minutes ago, Gilbert said:

I moved to O Gauge because I enjoy building things.

C

Absolutely, and it's a decent scale to build things in. For some, spending 1,000 hours building a loco kit is the reward in itself. All I was saying was that a person no longer has to build things to make a start in 7mm.

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9 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

Why bother with a kit - starter or otherwise - at £250 to £400-plus, when there are some great R-T-R locos available now at £200 or less? 

 

Because you want a particular prototype that isn't available RTR rather than just "a loco".

 

Because you like making things.

 

10 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

A person no longer has to be a skilled kitbuilder to get into O Scale, which some of the 'old guard' resent massively.

 

True, but it's every bit as annoying to be told that there is something wrong with wanting to build rather than buy.

 

(Yes, I know this is an argument that has been made many, many, many times on RMweb).

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7 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

That highlights how the scale is changing - or in the views of some, 'dumbing down'.

Why bother with a kit - starter or otherwise - at £250 to £400-plus, when there are some great R-T-R locos available now at £200 or less?  A person no longer has to be a skilled kitbuilder to get into O Scale, which some of the 'old guard' resent massively.

For myself, I grew up detailing, repainting and weathering Hornby, Lima and other 4mm diesels in the 1970s & '80s. Some years ago now when I put forward the idea online that a 7mm range of 'basic but accurate' diesels might do well - the bodyshell etc being accurate to shape, but the details were left for the modeller to add - I was very roundly shot down. A 'basic' version of a Heljan diesel, much cheaper, would suit me, as they mostly remain beyond my price range. I must admit that I am surprised how popular they have become, despite ever-increasing prices; clearly enough people are happy to buy them fully-finished - so I wonder if the market has skipped a generation and is appealling to those who modelled 4mm in the early 2000's when the current standard of fully-finished locos was being set in that scale?!

Of course, the original Skytrex (no link to the current owner) introduced a range of 'basic' diesels, but they missed their target by being rather crude bodyshells, but sold at (then) Heljan prices!!!

When my lad was younger & came to Guildex with me, he used to like the 'Kid's Layout' - after all it had the most action on it by far, lots of robust old Triang & Lima stuff rattling around, plus gems like the very smooth Rivarossi German 0-6-0 steam tank. Unfortunately, nowhere in the Show was any of this stuff available for sale - not at sensible prices, anyway - and he soon cottoned on that O Scale was not for him, as there was nothing available at pocket-money prices - £5 for a Lima wagon*, £10 for coach, and so on. Again, evidence to me of a prevailing "O Scale MUST be expensive" attitude, & when I tried to raise this online I was stamped on again by some - "no market", "toy trains" etc.... well my lad went to N Scale, and in the last few years has lost interest completely, so another youngster lost to the hobby.

Some of these matters perhaps go beyond the scope of any internal Guild issues, but to my mind do show how irrelevant it is becoming has become; something of a shame after it's sterling work in past decades.

 

*Don't laugh. That's the sort of price I paid for them, around 18 years ago.

 

I agree to a point, last year at Guildex, I bought a selection of Lima 16t opens for £8 each,

all weathered, with loads. I also picked up some Lima coaches for an average price of £20.

You can do 0 on a budget, if you're prepared to search and be patient.

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1 minute ago, Phil Parker said:

, but it's every bit as annoying to be told that there is something wrong with wanting to build rather than buy.

I wasn't suggesting that in the slightest. Sorry, I must have worded things badly.

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17 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

I wasn't suggesting that in the slightest. Sorry, I must have worded things badly.

I know exactly what you meant and having an rtr loco base available was one of the reasons I started in 7 mm scale.

 

I like modelling but I don't want to spend too much time building from scratch or kits.

 

I do that in live steam, so rtr 7 mm scale stuff gives me a bit of instant gratification! :mocking_mini:

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31 minutes ago, jcm@gwr said:

last year at Guildex, I bought a selection of Lima 16t opens for £8 each,

all weathered, with loads. I also picked up some Lima coaches for an average price of £20.

You must have been there earlier than me!! :mosking:

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