Non member view and thoughts about the Gauge O guild

[RTJ]

In answer to a few points from various contributors (thanks by-the-way....much more civilised (at present?) cf the debates on the GoG Forum!)

 

1. I wasn't suggesting one HAD to anneal brass (after all, all it is is heating it up, plunging into cold water and then bending to shape). I've hardly ever needed to do it.

2. There are good 'primers' on getting started  in 'O' gauge. Tower models do one (http://www.tower-models.com); scroll down to 'O' gauge , and then "starting-up in O Gauge". Peco also do a good booklet (https://peco-uk.com/products/your-guide-to-o-gauge-railway-modelling).

 

AND of course there's the Modelling section in '7mm RM web' and, of course, especially,  on the GoG website (just avoid the toxic politics). https://platform1mrc.com/p1mrc/index.php is also a friendly source for 4 and 7 mm scale stuff.

 

Be blessed that RM web doesn't have management structures where acerbic politics are played out. I still would encourage anyone interested in 7mm stuff to join GoG - if only for a year  - just to try it out!

 

R

 

[chris p bacon]

35 minutes ago, RTJ said:

Be blessed that RM web doesn't have management structures where acerbic politics are played out. I still would encourage anyone interested in 7mm stuff to join GoG - if only for a year  - just to try it out!

In theory I am a candidate as a future member. I've been modelling in OO (and continue to) but I have dabbled with 'O' gauge when I drew my own etches for a locomotive in 7mm, that I'd already done in 4mm, and I have plans to do another which I've done in 4mm. These 2 locomotives form the entire stud of the Sandy & Potton railway and would form part of a nice small layout.

I've looked at the GOG and considered joining, but I concluded that the help I get here (RMWeb) from some really helpful and knowledgeable modellers was more use to me. 

The cost of joining wasn't an issue, I am more than happy to contribute here (Gold member) and I am already a member of various societies and groups, I just didn't see the point in joining.

[SteveyDee68]

2 hours ago, RTJ said:

 

 Annealing brass is quite easy. (Got a gas cooker, or, even better a cook's butane torch-?). Cleanliness, a good flux, a good 60W soldering iron + LEADED solder and you're away!

 

I have a feeling Steve that you're really raring to go...you're just on the brink aren't you...and you know, just know, you've got to take the plunge!

 

In the meantime a Dapol 08 'Gronk' plus a few yards of 7mm Peco rail and you will  be hooked...honest.

 

R

 

Honestly? I see (and feel) the appeal of 7mm!! My father has quite a collection of locos, wagons and coaches, all in various states of finish, building or requiring repair. My favourite of the lot is the 0-6-0 Hunslet tank engine, so an O gauge Inglenook layout is a possibility without any massive outlay... oh crikey, don't tempt me or my plans for a train ferry layout will never progress! 

 

Steve S

[RTJ]

2 minutes ago, SteveyDee68 said:

 

Honestly? I see (and feel) the appeal of 7mm!! My father has quite a collection of locos, wagons and coaches, all in various states of finish, building or requiring repair. My favourite of the lot is the 0-6-0 Hunslet tank engine, so an O gauge Inglenook layout is a possibility without any massive outlay... oh crikey, don't tempt me or my plans for a train ferry layout will never progress! 

 

Steve S

Steve,

 

Do both!

 

I have a 4mm Monkton Combe layout ('Titfield' of Thunderbolt fame - on the ex-GWR Limpley Stoke line, nr Bath) and also a 7 mm layout of the same but imagined if the line had joined the S&DJR (yes, there was such a plan!).

 

(I once had a 4mm 'Wellow'  (S&DJR) layout)

 

I've yet to finish the Monkton Combe layout  but already am already  thinking of a 7mm Broad Gauge Layout OR Midford Goods layout (ex-SDJR nr Bath) on a 2.0 x 0.5m baseboard.

 

Yes 'O'gauge can seem more expensive, BUT, if one has a limited space (say 2.5m long) then  a small loco , a few wagons, two points and a few yards of Peco bullhead will give a lot of  pleasure  and the rolling stock just has more 'presence'. Thus the cost difference isn't that great.

 

Join GoG and you'll get help all the way!

 

R

[newbryford]

10 hours ago, steve W said:

I know the GOG mentions 7mm narrow gauge, but based on my experience  at Telford with a very well recieved NG layout, it is highly unlikely to generate significant activity in that area.  A couple walked towards the layout during the afternoon, the gentleman's wife was seemingly much taken with our display. He, on the other hand, took one quick glance, grabbed her by the arm and in a loud voice pronounced "Come along dear, it's only narrow gauge". 

Sorry, probably doesn't help the core purpose of this thread though.

 

Blinkered attitudes like that aren't the exclusive right of the 7mm non-narrow gauge fraternity.

 

It's only diesel/steam/foreign/N gauge/GWR [*] (Other factions are available)

 

[*] Delete as appropriate.

Edited July 14, 2020 by newbryford

[PMP]

9 hours ago, Ravenser said:

Some comments on breadth of coverage.

 

DOGA - which has been mentioned , and of which I'm a member - is a gauge-specific society. It arose in large part to tackle the long-standing lack of wheel and track standards for OO (ie 16.5mm gauge) , and also to address the lack of any voice specifically for OO modellers, in a situation where EM and P4 modellers had large well-organised societies representing them. 

 

 

 Apologies for the diversion, but how many members are there in DOGA? Its interesting that for many of the other societies the 'management' and technical committee personnel etc etc names are often well known modellers. I and I suspect many other OO modellers don't know whom are 'acting' on our behalf, and even if they are actually doing things in 'our ' actual best interest, rather than best intentions.

 

Re the OP thread,

 

The Guild going back to the early 80's when I was first helping in the trade were noticeable that with mail order transactions they very frequently quoted their membership number, and in some cases (a few) expected discount because of that membership. In terms of sales/gauge split we used to feel (1980's) that it was 'OO' 70%, N 20% O and others 10%. N definitive number but a feel for what was sold over the counter and mail order.

I suspect the 70% is still true for OO, but O may well have taken quite a leap forward particularly with the new RTR releases, N I think may be at the back of the queue (currently), but the likes of RevolutioN hopefully helping the scale move forward. Often people ask why don't retailers make N gauge loco new tool commissions. The answer is its really difficult to get sufficient N modellers to commit to a viable project in numbers to make a reasonable return.

 

That the guild has helped O gauge modelling survive is undeniable, I don't think the name/brand needs dropping, but as has been mentioned above there's definitely a perception of a 'old fashioned' type of society that maybe needs to change. That perception was extant in the 1980's, not modelling in the scale to any great degree it wouldn't be helpful to try and add more. If change is required again its been mentioned there's potential for plenty for conflict of varying degrees, it may have been @t-b-g who mentioned it but I'd suggest strongly aiming for evolution rather than revolution, for the sake of the guild and its members and future. 

[david.hill64]

10 hours ago, polybear said:

 

Not guaranteed though - the accounts for the period to Feb 2018 didn't appear until November 2018.

 

I'm no Accountant, but......looking at the accounts for the period ending 28 Feb 2019 there is (under the Cost of Sales section) a line entry stating "Other Costs", with a figure of £256,565; it's by far the biggest cost and (from my interpretation) is a significant contributor towards the Guild having a 15K closing deficit for the year.

However, there is absolutely no explanation regarding these "other costs" of over a quarter of a million.

 

Just for comparison. My wife and I run Railway City Trains Ltd, which trades as Gladiator Model kits. We provide a large range of 7mm loco, coach and wagon kits plus various accessories. Our financial year ends 31st August. Our accounts will generally appear in the Companies House pages about March. (we were early this year: February, but still 6 months).  It really does take than long to get all of the books completed, reviewed by the accountants, prepared for filing and filed.

 

Gladiator's published accounts do not show a Profit and Loss statement, but if they did then most things would be lumped into 'Other Costs'. A concern of many in the Guild is that the membership have been unable to determine precisely what was spent where, though the books available on line to members give much greater detail than those available those available through companies house. They show for example that about 80% of the 'Other costs' depicted in the Company House submission were split 50:50 between publications and exhibitions. There is no requirement to give that level of detail in the accounts visible to the general public.

[Michael Edge]

13 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

 

Whilst I was busy tapping away at my previous post, the link appeared to the Judith Edge kits and lo! There was the 48DS at only £55 - but I suspect wheels and motor are not included as the site says that they are included in the 4mm kit! I am definitely tempted right now to purchase it except that it is in brass ... which means all that bending, forming, soldering malarkey, which as stated before is ten steps from where I am! 

 

Steve S

You are correct, the 7mm kit isn't complete but that's why it's a lot cheaper than the 4mm one. It needs 2 slater's wagon wheelsets, some chain and sprockets and a small (4mm size) motor/gearbox, it's easy to build but you will have to solder it together.

The reason why the 4mm kit comes complete is that the High Level drive unit is the only feasible way of powering it properly, compensated and driving both axles. In 7mm scale actual chain drive is possible and in fact very easy. The same applies to our other chain drive Ruston kit for the 88DS.

As kit manufacturers we concentrate on getting the kit to you in the most efficient way possible - flat packed in a box - only O gauge modellers expect us to provide them with a stock box as well.

Judith and Michael Edge

[Joseph_Pestell]

I have not been following all of this GOG saga but something has clearly gone very wrong. Other gauge-specific societies are in a very healthy financial state.

 

It would seem that there has been a lack of transparency at GOG. If it is to survive and thrive (as it should with the growing popularity of 0), it will need to be rather more open.

 

I would suggest that they need to find someone from outside the Guild, but with knowledge of model railway and accountancy matters, to both analyse the past performance and mediate between any factions within the Guild. That person would then need to report to the GOG membership and GOG hold an EGM to agree the way forward.

 

If Telford is proving to be a burden financially, perhaps GOG could follow the example of the 3mm Society with its very successful show-within-a-show at Stafford earlier this year.

[fail safe]

14 hours ago, alastairq said:

[why not O scale?]...could take a leaf out of the 2mm Scale Association

Ah I can answer that. '0' is not a scale it relates to a gauge, 7mm is a scale like 2mm so they could call themselves 7mm scale society or something. Probably too late as so  many say 0 scale now anyway. Came from the USA.

[Hibelroad]

Sorry that this is a bit off topic, but there have been several replies on here to say that 7mm modelling involves soldering brass kits and that the writer has had no success with soldering. I learnt to solder by following the guidance in Iain Rice books, it really is quite easy and just a matter of cleanliness, the right flux, right solder and a quality iron. Carrs products (and other) can supply flux and solder. Soldering is a great way to build as the joint is almost instant allowing for quick progress. I have built a few brass kits in the past and enjoyed the process. It is no longer necessary to build kits in order to model in 7mm but I would urge all modellers to gain some basic soldering skills as it is such a useful technique for a number of modelling needs.

[GeoffAlan]

On 12/07/2020 at 19:30, definate maybe said:

I know little about the guild but to better promote it I would suggest allowing (part of) the website to be viewed by non members.

i say this as I was/am a big fan of Albannach which was on this forum. The user decided to stop updating on RMWeb but I was told that it was on the Guilds website. I tried to search it but was told I needed to log in first.

I appreciate certain areas may need to be restrictive but access to the website is likely to be a good way of gaining interest in the gauge and adding new members.

It’s a good way of showing off the skills of those involved already.

Regards

Mark 

Yes...... Always a difficult call for any Society.

IF potential members can't see, online, what you do. Then why should they join?

Against.

Do you want outsiders to see your group's 'dirty washing'. (It does suggest from your post that there is dirt to be seen.)

[Georgeconna]

19 minutes ago, Hibelroad said:

Sorry that this is a bit off topic, but there have been several replies on here to say that 7mm modelling involves soldering brass kits and that the writer has had no success with soldering. I learnt to solder by following the guidance in Iain Rice books, it really is quite easy and just a matter of cleanliness, the right flux, right solder and a quality iron. Carrs products (and other) can supply flux and solder. Soldering is a great way to build as the joint is almost instant allowing for quick progress. I have built a few brass kits in the past and enjoyed the process. It is no longer necessary to build kits in order to model in 7mm but I would urge all modellers to gain some basic soldering skills as it is such a useful technique for a number of modelling needs.

 

Soldering is easy, its making sure lining up the chassis so it all square, Getting all the connecting rods right, painting and lining are the hard bits. Its Easy to balls up a 300 note kit.

 

 

[jcm@gwr]

4 minutes ago, GeoffAlan said:

Yes...... Always a difficult call for any Society.

IF potential members can't see, online, what you do. Then why should they join?

Against.

Do you want outsiders to see your group's 'dirty washing'. (It does suggest from your post that there is dirt to be seen.)

 

Also, if you let non-members view the forum, then what's the advantage (to them)

of joining, if one of the benefits of membership is the forum?

[Mark Forrest]

1 minute ago, jcm@gwr said:

 

Also, if you let non-members view the forum, then what's the advantage (to them)

of joining, if one of the benefits of membership is the forum?

It seems to work OK for S4 Soc, non-members can view the forum (and, I think, post in a “guest” area), but there are additional sub forums that require member login (likewise access to full range from their stores).

[jcm@gwr]

1 minute ago, Mark Forrest said:

It seems to work OK for S4 Soc, non-members can view the forum (and, I think, post in a “guest” area), but there are additional sub forums that require member login (likewise access to full range from their stores).

 

True, but I was just adding to the list that of things that have be considered, 

when you are trying to balance pros and cons, and decide how much you

want to promote and attract new members, without losing current ones.

[burgundy]

50 minutes ago, jcm@gwr said:

 

True, but I was just adding to the list that of things that have be considered, 

when you are trying to balance pros and cons, and decide how much you

want to promote and attract new members, without losing current ones.

 

When the Brighton Circle decided to launch the LB&SCR Modellers Digest, there was a discussion about the pros and cons of restricting access to members or opening it to all. We decided to make it open and it has resulted in new members and significantly increased levels of interest. There have also been articles by non-members which have been greatly appreciated.  

The Circle itself remains a historical group and has a closed e mail list on which members can exchange ideas: I think the nearest that we have come to dirty washing is to debate the colour of loco crews' overalls. However, the interaction between historical research, modelling and cottage industries is an entirely virtuous circle triangle, so we have seen benefits all round. 

I confess that I am slightly surprised that I am now collecting material for Issue 12 and that Issue 11 ran to over 200 pages!

Best wishes 

Eric   

[whart57]

On 14/07/2020 at 03:40, SteveyDee68 said:

My idea of a “simple” kit would be: resin cast details, a screw-together idiot-proof chassis (sideframes, spacers, wheels, pickups etc), a fold-up gearbox to make use of a readily available motor (eg the Hornby 0-4-0 mechanism), and full size drawings with the appropriate thickness plasticard from which to cut components! Soldering should be limited to wiring in the motor to the pickups, but if possible a non-soldering solution should also be devised. Such a kit could be a gentle introduction and palpable benefit to joining the Guild, a step away from RTR but not requiring a rocket-science skill set!!

 

That's precisely what I hoped to produce for the 3mm Society when I was chairman for seven years. Actually trying to do it was a different matter. History says that in TT and OO, back in the 1960s there were white metal kits that fitted on standard Triang or Hornby Dublo 0-6-0 chassis, but to modern eyes the compromises to match prototype to the mechanism's wheel size and spacing are unacceptable. So before you start you are faced with a choice of prototype. Pick the wrong one and you can't sell the result.

 

Then there is the definition of "idiot" in idiot-proof. How much scope for cack-handedness do you design out? Do you assume people can fit screw-in spacers correctly or do they need a complete milled or 3D printed chassis block.

 

Which motor? Will your choice still be available in five year's time?

 

Saying you want a "simple kit" is easy. Turning it into reality isn't.

[Barry O]

5 hours ago, david.hill64 said:

 

 

Gladiator's published accounts do not show a Profit and Loss statement, but if they did then most things would be lumped into 'Other Costs'. A concern of many in the Guild is that the membership have been unable to determine precisely what was spent where, though the books available on line to members give much greater detail than those available those available through companies house. They show for example that about 80% of the 'Other costs' depicted in the Company House submission were split 50:50 between publications and exhibitions. There is no requirement to give that level of detail in the accounts visible to the general public.

 

They figures for exact spend on publications and exhibitions would be interesting to see. Does that include cost to pay the extereal publications and administration company. It is an awfulike lot of money for exhibitions as well. Does it balance against income from the shows? Bearing in mind the Events group in days before now made a profit at all 3 shows? If the shows are not breaking even then it is a big problem long ago the then events committee ran 3 shows and at least broke even..

Barry 

 

 

[t-b-g]

That is one aspect of the shows that has puzzled me. My involvement with running shows has been minimal but you don't have to be an expert to work out that trade stands generate revenue for a show through stand rental and possibly adverts in brochure. Layouts generate costs. There are many exhibitions out there with a much greater proportion of layouts to traders that still manage to cover the costs and make a profit.

 

The GOG guild shows, which have a much higher proportion of trade stands to layouts, make losses and apparently quite big ones.

 

So somewhere, the GOG have got the sums for the shows wrong. Whether they are paying more than other places for a venue, not charging enough for trade stands, have too many "hangers on" claiming expenses or all of the above and maybe other factors.

 

Without pointing fingers and apportioning blame, these things can change gradually over years without people noticing. One year somebody asks if they can come up on Thursday as it is a big set up and they want to start Friday morning. Word gets around and all of a sudden you have lots of people "Well they did it last year". Same for Sunday night. "Can we stay and travel back Monday?" all of a sudden you have hotel bills for 4 nights instead of two. Then such things become almost expected.

 

When I exhibit, I expect to pay for meals on Friday and Saturday nights and I expect to travel home Sunday evening. The only time I didn't, I was helping on another layout and the layout owner paid the bill for Sunday night. I have never exhibited at the GOG shows and I have no idea if this is the way they are run but I have seen people asking for those sorts of expenses at other shows. If things like meals out for two or three nights and hotels for 4 nights are allowed as expenses, then that may go a long way to explaining the losses.     

[RichardT]

3 hours ago, fail safe said:

Ah I can answer that. '0' is not a scale it relates to a gauge, 7mm is a scale like 2mm so they could call themselves 7mm scale society or something.

Except, as we have read above, there are differing views in 0-world as to what the gauge should be, seemingly all incompatible with each other. 

 

I have a slight suspicion that some of the issues the G0G are experiencing are as a result of some of the 1970s/1980s 4mm scale "disrupters" moving into 0 as they got older, with their "our (rail)way is the only way" attitude.  (I think someone mentioned this earlier in the thread.)  Having encountered some of them in a professional capacity earlier in my career I can say that they are superb railway modellers, but if I never meet them again it will be too soon: self-satisfied, patronising and closed-minded.  Not to mention unbelievably sexist to some of my team.

 

Ironically, I remember the late David Jenkinson (a man closely associated with some of those "disrupters") writing in the Railway Modeller about his move to 0 after he realised that he had bitten off more than he could chew with "Little Long Drag" in 4mm.  He specifically mentioned how much more relaxing he found working to 0 standards than the then-heated 4mm standards debate, and thanked the G0G for showing him that "the other meaning of tolerance still exists in this hobby" (or words to that effect.)

 

Be kind to each other is the message I suppose.

 

Richard

Edited July 15, 2020 by RichardT
Because I should proof-read before posting

[david.hill64]

I don’t want to get dragged into details of Guild finances. The two big costs, publications and shows have a more detailed breakdown, certainly for 2019. Only Telford makes a loss. Telford also bears the cost of the AGM. 
 

[t-b-g]

2 minutes ago, david.hill64 said:

I don’t want to get dragged into details of Guild finances. The two big costs, publications and shows have a more detailed breakdown, certainly for 2019. Only Telford makes a loss. Telford also bears the cost of the AGM. 
 

 

That is most interesting. I haven't examined the finances in detail but the impression that some people were giving is that they were all leaking money.

 

In many respects, I am not sure that such shows do need to make money or even to break even.

 

As a member, if part of my annual subscription goes to subsidise a brilliant show like Telford, I don't have a problem with that.

 

The purpose of a society show, in my view, shouldn't be to make a profit. It should be to showcase the work of the members and provide an opportunity to meet up, pick brains, buy stuff and generally have a fun weekend.

 

I would prefer my subs to be used for such things as the shows and the magazine rather than sit in a bank.

 

If it is just a case of sorting out the costs of the big annual show, it seems as if that is already happening.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

That is one aspect of the shows that has puzzled me. My involvement with running shows has been minimal but you don't have to be an expert to work out that trade stands generate revenue for a show through stand rental and possibly adverts in brochure. Layouts generate costs. There are many exhibitions out there with a much greater proportion of layouts to traders that still manage to cover the costs and make a profit.

 

The GOG guild shows, which have a much higher proportion of trade stands to layouts, make losses and apparently quite big ones.

 

So somewhere, the GOG have got the sums for the shows wrong. Whether they are paying more than other places for a venue, not charging enough for trade stands, have too many "hangers on" claiming expenses or all of the above and maybe other factors.

 

Without pointing fingers and apportioning blame, these things can change gradually over years without people noticing. One year somebody asks if they can come up on Thursday as it is a big set up and they want to start Friday morning. Word gets around and all of a sudden you have lots of people "Well they did it last year". Same for Sunday night. "Can we stay and travel back Monday?" all of a sudden you have hotel bills for 4 nights instead of two. Then such things become almost expected.

 

When I exhibit, I expect to pay for meals on Friday and Saturday nights and I expect to travel home Sunday evening. The only time I didn't, I was helping on another layout and the layout owner paid the bill for Sunday night. I have never exhibited at the GOG shows and I have no idea if this is the way they are run but I have seen people asking for those sorts of expenses at other shows. If things like meals out for two or three nights and hotels for 4 nights are allowed as expenses, then that may go a long way to explaining the losses.     

 

I once did a two-day weekend show, staying Friday night (very early start needed otherwise) and Saturday. On the Friday people (if they were there) did their own thing, but on Saturday there was a sort of social with quiz and meal for the exhibitors. It was a nice atmosphere and provided a more relaxed opportunity to talk to fellow exhibitors, but I suppose a secondary benefit is that the food and other expenses costs can be regulated more.

[t-b-g]

5 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

I once did a two-day weekend show, staying Friday night (very early start needed otherwise) and Saturday. On the Friday people (if they were there) did their own thing, but on Saturday there was a sort of social with quiz and meal for the exhibitors. It was a nice atmosphere and provided a more relaxed opportunity to talk to fellow exhibitors, but I suppose a secondary benefit is that the food and other expenses costs can be regulated more.

 

I have been to a few shows that organise a social do. Some ask for a financial contribution and some are happy to finance it themselves. There are a nice part of a weekend away. I think any show financing it themselves and making a loss as a result might need to reconsider their generosity.