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Non member view and thoughts about the Gauge O guild


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2 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

At a time when many railway societies (prototype and model) are suffering decline due to age profiles

This view has been around for at least thirty years - I remember the final incarnation of "Model Railways" running a campaign in the early 1990s to "save the hobby" by getting more youngsters involved.

 

The model railway, and railway preservation, hobby has been a hobby for the more mature (possibly well-off, possibly early retired) for decades now.  The trope about "getting your first Hornby O gauge tinplate at seven, then graduating to Dublo as a teenager and then back to fine-scale in your thirties after being inactive because of university/getting career going/romance" just doesn't hold any more and hasn't for years. 

 

New recruits to the hobby are just likely to be older, and so long as there is a steady supply of older new recruits in their 40s and 50s then that isn't a symptom of decline - its just a shift of age profile for the target demographic.  Model railways are now often something you come to when you are of an age to appreciate the benefits of a hobby, have a bit more spare cash,and are less worried about what other people might think of you for taking up such a hobby.   Trying to get younger people actively interested is usually a waste of time - their lives are far too busy and the career pressure on them is immense.  What you have to be is around and visible, with some easy entry points, for when they grow into the hobby - easier said than done!  (The same issue is faced by the BBC with their obsession that e.g. Radio 4 has too old an audience - so they try to get a younger audience, and only succeed in alienating their actual core audience, who have come to the station "naturally" as they have matured.)

 

The problems this creates for railway/model railway societies is that these more mature new recruits need a different approach if they are to be retained in the hobby.  They don't have a lifetime of railway knowledge to draw on and so want to learn fast, and be given quicker ways to accumulate the knowledge and skills they need - starting a hobby in your later years means you don't want to be wasting time serving a long "apprenticeship" before seeing some results.  But at the same time, being older and (usually) more self-confident and sure of themselves, they aren't willing to tolerate being patronised for their lack of knowledge/skills, and being "put in their place" by sclerotic hierarchies - which many have just escaped from at work!  Also, being in your forties or fifties now implies a different set of attitudes and interests  than being in your forties and fifties did thirty years ago - which is not always appreciated by people in their seventies OR by people in their twenties!

 

Richard

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I joined the GOG when I was in my 20's back in the 80's during, the 'etched brass for every occasion' era, taunted with the 'check book modelling jibes' by the 'old timers' back then, and left just as quickly.

I'm now in my late fifties and still dabble in O gauge with no intention of re-joining.

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19 hours ago, RichardT said:

This view has been around for at least thirty years - I remember the final incarnation of "Model Railways" running a campaign in the early 1990s to "save the hobby" by getting more youngsters involved.

 

The model railway, and railway preservation, hobby has been a hobby for the more mature (possibly well-off, possibly early retired) for decades now.  The trope about "getting your first Hornby O gauge tinplate at seven, then graduating to Dublo as a teenager and then back to fine-scale in your thirties after being inactive because of university/getting career going/romance" just doesn't hold any more and hasn't for years. 

 

New recruits to the hobby are just likely to be older, and so long as there is a steady supply of older new recruits in their 40s and 50s then that isn't a symptom of decline - its just a shift of age profile for the target demographic.  Model railways are now often something you come to when you are of an age to appreciate the benefits of a hobby, have a bit more spare cash,and are less worried about what other people might think of you for taking up such a hobby.   Trying to get younger people actively interested is usually a waste of time - their lives are far too busy and the career pressure on them is immense.  What you have to be is around and visible, with some easy entry points, for when they grow into the hobby - easier said than done!  (The same issue is faced by the BBC with their obsession that e.g. Radio 4 has too old an audience - so they try to get a younger audience, and only succeed in alienating their actual core audience, who have come to the station "naturally" as they have matured.)

 

The problems this creates for railway/model railway societies is that these more mature new recruits need a different approach if they are to be retained in the hobby.  They don't have a lifetime of railway knowledge to draw on and so want to learn fast, and be given quicker ways to accumulate the knowledge and skills they need - starting a hobby in your later years means you don't want to be wasting time serving a long "apprenticeship" before seeing some results.  But at the same time, being older and (usually) more self-confident and sure of themselves, they aren't willing to tolerate being patronised for their lack of knowledge/skills, and being "put in their place" by sclerotic hierarchies - which many have just escaped from at work!  Also, being in your forties or fifties now implies a different set of attitudes and interests  than being in your forties and fifties did thirty years ago - which is not always appreciated by people in their seventies OR by people in their twenties!

 

Richard

 

A very good summing up of the situation.

 

 

 

 

  

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On 04/08/2020 at 22:14, RichardT said:

 

On 04/08/2020 at 19:33, Pacific231G said:

At a time when many railway societies (prototype and model) are suffering decline due to age profiles

 

This view has been around for at least thirty years - I remember the final incarnation of "Model Railways" running a campaign in the early 1990s to "save the hobby" by getting more youngsters involved.

 

The model railway, and railway preservation, hobby has been a hobby for the more mature (possibly well-off, possibly early retired) for decades now.  The trope about "getting your first Hornby O gauge tinplate at seven, then graduating to Dublo as a teenager and then back to fine-scale in your thirties after being inactive because of university/getting career going/romance" just doesn't hold any more and hasn't for years. 

 

 

Hi Richard

It's not  my view.  It was actually  Eddie B you were responding to and not me. I'd quoted him at length in order to respond with some thoughts about how Societies might be governed but that had nothing to with age profiles.

 

I've actually never subscribed to the view that if you put a Thomas train set layout in the corner of your exhibiton for the kiddies to play with, they'll all be fine scale modellers twenty years later

(Among my favourite childhood toys was a farm tractor that would rake or plough the soil- or rather the sand tray-  as you pushed it along. I've never had the slightest desire to be a farmer or a tractor driver!)

OTOH, put up a shunting puzzle layout that visitors of any age can have a go at operating and that may be a very different story.

 

People do come into the hobby at various stages in their lives. For some it's a retirement or 'kids now left home' hobby but I've noticed that quite a high proportion of the  more interesting layouts here are by people with young children.

 

Assuming that a high proportion of people who get into the hobby as adults or teenagers stay in it and that people come into the hobby at any  age, the cumulative effect of a proportion of people recruited at older ages and of people who've grown older after being in the hobby for a long time will automatically produce a higher proportion of older modellers. That doesn't mean that the hobby is not attracting younger people.

 

What that means is that if we want to continue attracting new recruits to our hobby, it and the various societies that support different aspects of it, need to be attractive to people of any age or background.  Strangely enough, since I model French railways in 1:87 scale, the show where I've found it easiest to get practical hands-on advice about many aspects of modelling is ExpoEM though   some others are also not bad for that.

 

 

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9 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

Hi Richard

It's not  my view.  It was actually  Eddie B you were responding to and not me.

Hi Pacific231G (!)

Apologies for the misattribution - I’m still not good at threaded quotes...

 

Richard

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2 minutes ago, RichardT said:

Hi Pacific231G (!)

Apologies for the misattribution - I’m still not good at threaded quotes...

 

Richard

Hi Richard

Not a problem. I just wanted to put the record straight. Your argument is interesting and it did lead me to think a bit more about age profiles. I agree with you completely about not putting all our efforts into attracting youngsters (though that's important too) but not about assuming that the age profile of potential recruits is the same as that of modellers as a whole. I suspect that there are peaks of recruitment at various stages of life and retirement, especiially with a reasonable income and a home with some space, is certainly one of them  but by no means the only one. 

 

Best wishes

 

David

 

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It's a fair point and one which I had not thought much about until now, but personally, I got back into modelling after the birth of our fist son. I'd like to think that it was the prospect of building a railway with him but in reality it was something to distract me from the trails and tribulations of fatherhood!

 

I was very much into trains etc as a kid though

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10 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

I've actually never subscribed to the view that if you put a Thomas train set layout in the corner of your exhibiton for the kiddies to play with, they'll all be fine scale modellers twenty years later

(Among my favourite childhood toys was a farm tractor that would rake or plough the soil- or rather the sand tray-  as you pushed it along. I've never had the slightest desire to be a farmer or a tractor driver!)

OTOH, put up a shunting puzzle layout that visitors of any age can have a go at operating and that may be a very different story.

 

People do come into the hobby at various stages in their lives. For some it's a retirement or 'kids now left home' hobby but I've noticed that quite a high proportion of the  more interesting layouts here are by people with young children.

 

 

 

The strange fact is that local model railway shows thrive on the general non railway modelling families to support the club financially through the year, a well run show that attracts families is a real money spinner for keeping clubs going. I was a member of a club which ran a fine scale show that in the end was a millstone round its neck. yet another local one who's show catered for families thrived. 

 

For a society to grow they need to give prospective new members a reason to join. as well as keeping existing members happy. No one can argue 7 mm scale modelling is a growth area !! But can the society take advantage of the opportunity ?. The first hurdle is in having a product people are willing to buy into.

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On 29/07/2020 at 15:33, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Naming no names, but I have seen that happen several times in the manifestos of some candidates for the main committee of a major national political party. People who can't count but think that they can run the country......

This was one of the candidates in the last general election

 

5D3690EB-F247-4645-AEF5-F54782460432.jpeg
(This photo was taken outside the polling centre, but it was the same on the voting slip)

Edited by Talltim
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3 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

 

The strange fact is that local model railway shows thrive on the general non railway modelling families to support the club financially through the year, a well run show that attracts families is a real money spinner for keeping clubs going. I was a member of a club which ran a fine scale show that in the end was a millstone round its neck. yet another local one who's show catered for families thrived. 

 

For a society to grow they need to give prospective new members a reason to join. as well as keeping existing members happy. No one can argue 7 mm scale modelling is a growth area !! But can the society take advantage of the opportunity ?. The first hurdle is in having a product people are willing to buy into.

 

And it'd be quite off-putting for these normals or extended families of existing modellers if they were told they have to be building a compensated wagon kit in a particular scale by the time they were 25, they need a gateway scale before progressing to hardcore class A modelling.

 

The problem as I see it with this and for some other societies is you don't need to be a member to model in that scale, as alot of stuff is accessible from box shifters and secondhand, whereas the ones who provide unique trade support are invaluable. It's obvious that many people have joined only to become alienated and were unable to buy into renewing their membership, and now the down side to that is apparent, in fact I've read through this thread and wondered why if the few bits of American 1/4" I have that are less accurate duplicates of HO projects will ever see a layout.

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On 01/08/2020 at 17:46, polybear said:

Does the GoG send out a large manual etc. (as EMGS do, for instance - although I believe this is now on CD rather than paper the thickness of a phone book) - it could be that to offer a discount for a "short" membership would actually cost the Guild money.  If so, give a discount on 1st membership renewal, so as to balance the books and make everything fair.  But in any event, it should be made crystal clear that if you join part-way thru' then you don't get a full year's membership

Best way to have memberships, is to have a joining fee which covers the manual (if there is such a thing). Then a pro-rata for the next year & a bit. Say the month you join is March and the club membership ends in June, then bill them for 15 months worth. Adjust quarterly, so you have 12, 15, 18, or 21 month memberships. A uniform date for renewal is easiest, for a volunteer organisation. Different sorry, if paid staff are doing it, where you'd want to spread the load.

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On 01/08/2020 at 20:21, chris p bacon said:

 

 

Just reading the above, I can't speak for the G0G but I am the membership secretary for a line society.

 

Having different finishing dates for each member is just far too onerous for renewals. Most societies have a fixed term of subscription as this makes the admin easier* and also helps by having a date with which to time events such as the AGM (in our case this follows a short time after renewals) where members attending are members for the year rather than a few days.

Our subs year runs from 1st August until the 31st July the following year, for anyone joining between 1st Aug and the following 31st May they have all the years copies of the Society publications (plus access to the website members only area)  should they be late joiners 1st June to 31st July then we give them the current years publications as well as the following years (BOGOF) although this only applies to first time new members. We feel this is the fairest way to treat those that join during the year, and keeping the admin at a level which isn't too onerous for a volunteer.

 

*= My job for 300+ members takes 25-35 hours at the time of renewals plus a couple of hours a week during the year, 5000+ members is going to be a lot of work so I fully understand the fixed subs year.

 

Agree 100%

 

I was Treasurer for a small model railway club, (usually between 30 -40 members). To be honest we have always struggled with the bills, mostly because we were in rather expensive private rental. Despite our efforts we were unsuccessful in more suitable & even slightly cheaper accommodation.

 

One year, as Treasurer I made the recommendation to have a modest increase in members fee. The aim being to reduce our loss of income vs. expenses (mostly the rent).

I got voted down on that, because one member stated that the way to increase membership was to reduce the membership fee, not increase. So he proposed a decrease instead.

I pointed out, that such a decrease would mean that 3 new memberships, would need to be found just to stay even. That decrease actually got put and approved, to my dismay. We did actually get 4 new members that year, so a minuscule increase in members income. We actually need a big rise in income to make any worthwhile difference.

 

The following year, I put an identical motion forward to have the small increase. The vote was to keep it the same. Time for me, not to be Treasurer! That was the reward I received for being Treasurer for 11 years! OK, they did make me a Life Member too, but I would have stayed on if they wanted me to, but clearly they weren't listening.

 

Like most Treasurers, I took the flak of members about needing to twist my arm to get funding for their pet project.

My answer was always the same. The club members determine how the club funds get spent. My job is to keep track of the income & expenses and to present a monthly report to the Committee and an Annual Report to the members.

If the members voted to spend too much on layouts etc, so be it. Actually usually they didn't, because they couldn't agree whether they wanted to spend it on N gauge or HO!

 

Club is about to fold, as we had to vacate our clubroom (lack of funds to pay for it) and we made a decision last year, to wind up in 12 months, if no alternative can be found - it hasn't!

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21 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Agree 100%

 

I was Treasurer for a small model railway club, (usually between 30 -40 members).

I only have experience of being a member of two clubs, but I’m pretty certain that combined they’d just about make 30 members. I wouldn’t have said 30-40 was small

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2 hours ago, 298 said:

 

And it'd be quite off-putting for these normals or extended families of existing modellers if they were told they have to be building a compensated wagon kit in a particular scale by the time they were 25, they need a gateway scale before progressing to hardcore class A modelling.

 

 

 

I think you misunderstood what I was saying which was in answer to the comment about Thomas the Tank engine layouts.

 

The general public want to see locos running and have a layout or two that interest the very young, the successful shows year after year entertain the paying public, something that the societies who are struggling with need to emulate. They need to offer something which will both attract new members as well as keeping the majority of existing members happy.

 

The other club and the one I have now joined have local shows which attract families from the area, the combined entrance fees and the profit from the catering and raffle both pays for the show and greatly increases the clubs funds

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8 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

I think you misunderstood what I was saying which was in answer to the comment about Thomas the Tank engine layouts.

 

The general public want to see locos running and have a layout or two that interest the very young, the successful shows year after year entertain the paying public, something that the societies who are struggling with need to emulate. They need to offer something which will both attract new members as well as keeping the majority of existing members happy.

 

The other club and the one I have now joined have local shows which attract families from the area, the combined entrance fees and the profit from the catering and raffle both pays for the show and greatly increases the clubs funds

 

I have never believed that the wider public are just interested in the tail-chaser layouts.

 

But there is no denying that the general public were always drawn to the Gauge 1 Live Steam each year at Central Hall / Agricultural Halls back in the 1970s.

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2 hours ago, kevinlms said:

 

Best way to have memberships, is to have a joining fee which covers the manual (if there is such a thing). 

 

 

On 01/08/2020 at 09:02, Mike Bellamy said:

 

The full manual is available on CD for £7.50 plus £1.50 postage. The full printed manual is available for £35 plus £5 postage.

 

However as far as I can tell from the website, the original manual was last updated in 2008. A revision was started in Sept 2017 and out of 12 proposed sections, 2 have been published so far.

.

 

It was a few days ago and several pages back . . . . . . . . . ;)

.

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2 hours ago, kevinlms said:

 

I was Treasurer for a small model railway club, (usually between 30 -40 members). To be honest we have always struggled with the bills, mostly because we were in rather expensive private rental. Despite our efforts we were unsuccessful in more suitable & even slightly cheaper accommodation.

 

One year, as Treasurer I made the recommendation to have a modest increase in members fee. The aim being to reduce our loss of income vs. expenses (mostly the rent).

 

 

I sympathise with your situation as we were in a similar position a number of years ago. Then by chance an old Council building became available, our Chairman knew the local councillors and we were given the opportunity to rent it after spending most of our exhibition income on renovations. We asked about purchase but were always refused as the site was earmarked for a new library but again just by chance an alternative site nearby was found and in the Council's proposal was an additional source of income by selling the old site to us - of course we couldn't refuse that opportunity.

 

It wiped out our finances completely but a number of years running a successful exhibition had built up a 'building fund' and this has continued up until cancellation in May due to CV19. The problem we have now is that a surveyors report says that the old building 'is not in danger of immanent collapse' but off the record he gave it 5 to 10 years before a replacement would be needed.

 

We always had an unwritten rule that the annual fee and weekly subs covered the running costs, the village hall show surplus went into layouts and the income from the big show was put into the building fund. One year there was a proposal that the weekly fee (then about £3) should be charged to everyone every week regardless of attendance or not. The proposer just didn't seem to understand that this was just the same as a large annual fee. He was the only one to vote in favour for that option!

 

I was sorry to learn that your Club will soon be closing.

 

Mike

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2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I have never believed that the wider public are just interested in the tail-chaser layouts.

 

But there is no denying that the general public were always drawn to the Gauge 1 Live Steam each year at Central Hall / Agricultural Halls back in the 1970s.

 

 

Next time you go to a show with a lot of the public look where the queues are !! 

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1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 

 

Next time you go to a show with a lot of the public look where the queues are !! 

 

Most memorable queue that I can recall was for one of Dave and Shirley Rowe's layouts. But of course that only had a short frontage which alters the dynamics of the calculation.

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7 hours ago, Mike Bellamy said:

 

 

It was a few days ago and several pages back . . . . . . . . . ;)

.

The reference regarding the manual was a general one, for any organisation that provides a 'back' product.

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10 hours ago, Talltim said:

I only have experience of being a member of two clubs, but I’m pretty certain that combined they’d just about make 30 members. I wouldn’t have said 30-40 was small

The first year we had about 70 members and had a highly successful first exhibition and made lots (too much as it turned out) of money.

 

The members who had organised the exhibition, went mad. Their idea was that future exhibitions would effectively be run by them, without any oversight by the club. The clubs role becoming one of supplying them with layouts and volunteers to man their exhibition. They were adamant that the club should remain unincorporated, thus no legal oversight of their actions.

 

Of course a significant portion of the membership, weren't the least bit interested in this (there was talk of some members taking out 2nd mortgages on their homes, to pay for hiring a large commercial venue, capable of holding many 1000s at a time).

 

To cut a long story short, they were told no, which split the club and lost lots of members.

 

They did try hosting a private venture (held by members of our club - but not officially by our club, to use their terminology). The main reason for dissent, was the very short notice given and the fact that they had made a decision, signed and paid a deposit, BEFORE asking our members.

No results were ever provided, but judging by the very poor attendance and few exhibits, they must have lost heaps. For the next couple of years, we had to assure exhibitors & traders, that the mess was nothing to do with us!

 

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9 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Most memorable queue that I can recall was for one of Dave and Shirley Rowe's layouts. But of course that only had a short frontage which alters the dynamics of the calculation.

What about the queue for Hursley at the MRJ show in Westminster?!?

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