Bachman 117 and Zimo Decoders

[thestourbridgelion]

A friend has passed me a new Bachman 117 to fit to it a 21 pin Zimo 644 which was previously fitted to a Class 121. I hard wired a 21 pin adaptor plate to a Plux22 header which the 117 requires. Power and sound ok but no lights at at all ( cab, destination, interior or head code) First thought that I had wired it wrong so tried it on my decoder tester and it seemed to work ok. So I can only assume that the Function outputs may need remapping. I am familiar with ESU decoders and how to do this with my Lokprogramer but this is my first experience with Zimo. I have read the manual but am not clear. Could anyone give me a pointer on how to remap the functions?

 

I am impressed how sophisticated the electrics are on the 117-things are definitely moving forward. 

 

I tried and failed to establish continuity between the lighting circuits and the decoder pin sockets but apart from the common positive couldn’t get any so tried the unit on analogue to check the lighting circuits and all worked ok.

[Paul80]

What's Bachmann doing using a Plux22 I thought that had died out?

 

Is this an old model as a quick Google show the current 117 has a 21pin 

 

Confused as always

 

 

[NIK]

7 minutes ago, Paul80 said:

What's Bachmann doing using a Plux22 I thought that had died out?

 

Is this an old model as a quick Google show the current 117 has a 21pin 

 

Confused as always

 

 

Hi,

 

What's newer than Plux?.

 

Regards

 

Nick

 

 

[spamcan61]

11 hours ago, Richard Croft said:

The interior lights and destination blinds are on aux 3 through about 7 so its definitely a mapping issue, like you though I'm only familiar with ESU

 

Richard

I'm a Duette user :-) -  but isn't there also a potential issue with logic level versus 'full voltage' outputs with some decoders, as mentioned recently in the giant 117 / map pedantry thread? 

[SRman]

29 minutes ago, Paul80 said:

What's Bachmann doing using a Plux22 I thought that had died out?

 

Is this an old model as a quick Google show the current 117 has a 21pin 

 

Confused as always

 

 

 

Most likely old information. They may originally have been scheduled to use 21-pin interfaces, but PLuX is the newer and more versatile interface, with the 22-pin version having the most options for independent lighting controls (and possibly other functions as well).

[thestourbridgelion]

Definitely a Plux22

[Paul80]

Thanks

 

It was old info when the model was first shown on the Hattons site that said 21 pin.  so even more decoders to stock  they should have left Plux22 on the continent were it belongs 

[pauliebanger]

1 hour ago, Paul80 said:

What's Bachmann doing using a Plux22 I thought that had died out?

 

Is this an old model as a quick Google show the current 117 has a 21pin 

 

Confused as always

 

 

So you are.

 

Only backward looking manufacturers are using MTC21 pin decoders in newly designed models now, these were declared obsolescent by NMRA circa 2011 - then the US brands started using it, so it came backin fashion with all the confusing issues regarding 'Open Collector' and 'Logic Level' Function Outputs

 

1 hour ago, spamcan61 said:

I'm a Duette user :-) -  but isn't there also a potential issue with logic level versus 'full voltage' outputs with some decoders, as mentioned recently in the giant 117 / map pedantry thread? 

 

PluX22 is the more recent (actually originating from around the same time) and logical interface. There are no 'Logic Level' output issues since the model expects PluX22 (all FOs Open Collector) and the MX644D, though not PLuX interface, has always had 8 Open Collector FOs, Match made in heaven!

 

16 hours ago, thestourbridgelion said:

A friend has passed me a new Bachman 117 to fit to it a 21 pin Zimo 644 which was previously fitted to a Class 121. I hard wired a 21 pin adaptor plate to a Plux22 header which the 117 requires. Power and sound ok but no lights at at all ( cab, destination, interior or head code) First thought that I had wired it wrong so tried it on my decoder tester and it seemed to work ok. So I can only assume that the Function outputs may need remapping. I am familiar with ESU decoders and how to do this with my Lokprogramer but this is my first experience with Zimo. I have read the manual but am not clear. Could anyone give me a pointer on how to remap the functions?

 

I am impressed how sophisticated the electrics are on the 117-things are definitely moving forward. 

 

I tried and failed to establish continuity between the lighting circuits and the decoder pin sockets but apart from the common positive couldn’t get any so tried the unit on analogue to check the lighting circuits and all worked ok.

 

If you have a suitable sound project loaded to the MX644D, you may have to either work around the current F key assignments, move some sounds, or sacrifice some sounds to free up sufficient F keys for the lighting controls. That part's up to you.

 

To map the ZIMO MX644D to the latest Bachmann 117 features (PluX22) try this:

(This is my prefered method, there are several different possible ways to achieve this with ZIMO. You can even mix the methods seemlessly).

 

CV61 =97

CVs 33 to 46 all = 0

CV430 = 29
CV432 = 14
CV434 = 15

CV436 = A (Where value A is the number of the F key you wish to operate the Saloon Lighting)
CV438 = 3
CV440 = 3
CV442 = B (Where value B is the number of the F key you wish to operate the Cab Lighting - both, non directional per PCB circuits)

CV444 = 4
CV446 = 4
CV448 = C (Where value C is the number of the F key you wish to operate the non exhaust end Destination Panel illumination)

CV450 = 5
CV452 = 5
CV454 = D (Where value D is the number of the F key you wish to operate the exhaust end Destination Panel illumination)
CV456 = 6
CV458 = 6

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

[thestourbridgelion]

Paul, really appreciated that you shared that information with me. Unfortunately it doesn’t seem to work. I am wondering if I do a factory reset then try your settings? The current settings on the 644 are unknown so maybe there is something else causing an issue. Or maybe the decoder is defective. As I say it’s a 21 pin which I have wired to a Plux header but am pretty sure it’s wired correctly. Anyway, thanks again for sharing your information.

Andy Cope

[pauliebanger]

With any decoder of uncertain provenance,  a CV8 = 8 reset (ZIMO) would put all back to how it was set up during project creation. There's no danger of losing the sounds. Nothing is wiped, just CVs reset to project defaults

 

Also check the decoder is not programme locked, CV144 must = 0 to allow.

 

The CVs I gave are good, they are working everything correctly in the Class 117 running on my track!

Of course this all depends on correctly wired PluX header.

 

I don't want to teach you to suck eggs, but do remember that most diagrams showing 21 MTC and PluX22 pin-outs are from the socket perspective.

 

Pin-outs shown in decoder diagrams are often from the decoder's perspective. This means that the pin outs can appear to be a mirror image of each other, so great care must be taken to ensure that any wiring is not also laterally reversed.

 

I've been doing this stuff for a long time and I still have problems with this. To add to the confusion, diagrams which show the interface to the right of the decoder as viewed are also reversed, so you willl need to ensure correct orientation both left to right and top face to bottom face. Where possible, refer to any printed pin out numbers shown.

 

to goback to your observations, you say 'doesn't seem to work'. That's not exactly descriptive in the sense that we can trouble shoot your problems.

 

Will you tell us, specifically, what does work as anticipated and what does not. For instance, does it drive the motor?

 

Do you know which sound project is loaded? Where was the sound project obtained from? Do you have a version number? User Notes?

 

Are you conducting your trials on a decoder tester or in the model?

 

I also assume your tester is ESU. That will be anticipating 21MTC i.e. Logic Level FOs on Aux 3 and above, whereas the MX644D has Open Collector FOs form Aux 1 up to Aux 8. Result; ESU tester does not correctly show outputs from MX644D if plugged in direct (no PluX header/adapter), so you need to fit to the model to be sure of a connection.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

 

 

[thestourbridgelion]

Thanks again for your generous reply. Motor and sound were working ok but nothing else. I have now tried a factory reset and now nothing works! No sound, no motor, no lights. I made a note of the CVs from 1 to 6 before reset and they are the same as the ones still showing after factory reset. So I don’t know if I am missing something obvious. I am addressing the decoder correctly as 3. I have realised that I don’t know if this is a 644C or D which seems important because on the C some Aux’s are logic level. Prior to this latest development sound and movement was ok it was just lighting. Occasionally I would get a flash from the headcode led when I changed direction. Original chip was from Mr. Sound guy. I have a document which indicates basically what the function buttons do.(all sound functions except FO (marker lights) and F11( directional cab lights) There are also a list of what the volume CVs are for the various sound slots in the CV500 range. I have tried the chip on the model and on the ESU decoder tester. With the settings you suggested I tried it on the direct 21 pin connector on the tester and as you also suggest it didn’t show what I was expecting so I tried on model and still no lighting but at that point motor and sound ok. Factory reset then carried out, now nothing. I have tried the unit on analogue with blanking plate fitted and it works as expected so can’t see there is a fault on the unit.

I am confident that I have wired the header correctly but am tempted to remove the wiring and start again just to be sure. Or at least that was my plan was but now the chip seems dead I am just climbing the walls and thinking of throwing the chip in the bin!

Your comments really appreciated and I am learning! I can not get my head around logic levels yet but think that may be for another day!

Andy Cope

[JimFin]

It should be a D as the C were for Marklin etc. Was it originally a factory fit (to the 121?) from Mr Sound as there is a specific note in the Zimo manual - 

 

"MX645/MX644 plug configurations: ATTENTION: OEM installed decoder sometimes have less function outputs"

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by JimFin

[thestourbridgelion]

That’s interesting but as far as I know it was not a factory fit.

[pauliebanger]

1 hour ago, thestourbridgelion said:

Thanks again for your generous reply. Motor and sound were working ok but nothing else. I have now tried a factory reset and now nothing works! No sound, no motor, no lights. I made a note of the CVs from 1 to 6 before reset and they are the same as the ones still showing after factory reset. So I don’t know if I am missing something obvious. I am addressing the decoder correctly as 3. I have realised that I don’t know if this is a 644C or D which seems important because on the C some Aux’s are logic level. Prior to this latest development sound and movement was ok it was just lighting. Occasionally I would get a flash from the headcode led when I changed direction. Original chip was from Mr. Sound guy. I have a document which indicates basically what the function buttons do.(all sound functions except FO (marker lights) and F11( directional cab lights) There are also a list of what the volume CVs are for the various sound slots in the CV500 range. I have tried the chip on the model and on the ESU decoder tester. With the settings you suggested I tried it on the direct 21 pin connector on the tester and as you also suggest it didn’t show what I was expecting so I tried on model and still no lighting but at that point motor and sound ok. Factory reset then carried out, now nothing. I have tried the unit on analogue with blanking plate fitted and it works as expected so can’t see there is a fault on the unit.

I am confident that I have wired the header correctly but am tempted to remove the wiring and start again just to be sure. Or at least that was my plan was but now the chip seems dead I am just climbing the walls and thinking of throwing the chip in the bin!

Your comments really appreciated and I am learning! I can not get my head around logic levels yet but think that may be for another day!

Andy Cope

 

Andy,

 

Take this steady.

 

You will not kill a decoder simply by resetting it. If it really is dead then it will be from 'mishandling', but there's a solution for that too if needed. Even a user damaged ZIMO decoder has value, I implore you not to bin it, however frustrating this pocess may be at this point.

 

You are correct about the difference between MX644D and  MX644C (ironically, PluX decoders avoid this issue altogether).

 

Although Bachmann have used MX644C decoders in a few recent models, the type usually fitted to UK models is MX644D. This would align with your observations on the ESU tester.

 

Even if you had the wrong type, you would just observe tghat some functions appeared to be 'always on'. This would not cause damage.

 

How did you perform the reset? Literally, what did you plug into where, and what equipment did you use?

It seems from what you said you used POM (Programming On the Main). Is that correct?

Try using Service Mode programming instead.

Sometimes it can take several attempts to reset a decoder successfully. I see you compared CVs 1 to 6 before and after reset. this could indicate thatbthe reset was unsuccessful, but , unless you know that any of these CVs had previously been changed from the project defaults, it could simply mean that the reset was successful, but that these particular CVs did not need to be changed.

You said 'Factory Reset' did you mean that, (CV8 = 0) or did you use CV8 = 8? There could be a significant difference as to what gets changed.

 

That's not a problem either. Just make sure you have performed a CV8 = 8 reset successfully.

Frankly, without disparaging your workmanship, I would deal only with the MX644 direct to the decoder tester for now. We know that you will not get the correct result for some FOs but it removes one possible problem area.

 

Let us know how you get on

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

 

 

[thestourbridgelion]

Latest update-Sound and movement have come back! Bit of a mystery that but was ok after leaving everything for an hour-not touched anything to make it work but it works! But still unable to get any lights after inputting Paul’s suggestion. So going to de wire the connections between the 21 pin decoder and Plux22 header and do them again in case I have a dry joint or error. Then try again.

[pauliebanger]

Post a photo of the adapter, header and wiring - it might help us to help you.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

[thestourbridgelion]

Will do. In the middle of re wiring so will post a photo once finished probably later tomorrow.

[thestourbridgelion]

OK, photos attached after unsoldering then resoldering cables ( yes, think I need a bit more insulation looking at the close ups!) I use my LokProgramer for changing CVs and photo of Lokprogrammer with lights buttons pressed plus sound switched on and taking power. Taken with the same settings is the output on the decoder tester both through my hard wired lash up and with the 21 pin attached directly to the tester. The directional lights come on plus one auxiliary. The motor is also turning and the sound is working. I have not attached cables to GND or the GPIO A, B, or C or Capacitor + on the Plux header. ( The stray cable is for the stay alive capacitor and has been kept out of the way). Attaching the lash up to the vehicle produces movement and sound but no lights. Final photo is with analogue blanking plate inserted showing lights work on analogue so presumably vehicle wiring fine.

This is the result I have been getting all the way through.

( I used “8” for the factory reset yesterday)

Andy Cope

[thestourbridgelion]

I guess another thought in my head is fitting a second decoder just for the lights. Never done it before and it’s not ideal but a thought I had.

[pauliebanger]

It's hard to follow your wiring from the photos, and you have used different colours from that written on the PluX diagram, but as far as I can see the adapter is correctly wired to the PluX header.

 

With the MX644Dplugged into the ESU tester, you should see motor turns, sound operates and Aux 1 and Aux 2 LEDs illuminated, BUT, I did not give the CVs for mapping AUX 1 and Aux 2, so I would be surprised if these were illuminated. Is That correct?

 

if so, only LEDs for AUX 3 and 4 are left as possibles. BUT, these are for Logic Level only. On mine, they do not illuminate unless Logic Level FO is connected.

 

I would expect, therefore that you would not see any LEDs illuminated on the tester, (other than the front and rear light LEDs). Is that correct?

 

If you have observed an AUX indicated as working, was this on the model? If so, which LED and at which end? You only show one car in your photo, have you connected the other driving car? If not, how have you tested the AUXs which power the LEDs in that car? (We know you can't rely on the ESU tester for this).

 

You show F1 (sound on), and lights, switched on which you report are working correctly.

 

You also have F11, and F21 to F25 switched on. What have you assiged to these F keys? Will you list the CVs you used to do this?

 

You said earlier that F11 was for cab lights, (these are not directional in this model), have you assigned this in the list of CVs I gave? (CV442 = 11)

 

I can't see any point in trying to fit a second decoder for the lighting. How would you actually do this? There's no guarantee that you would have any more success than now. The decoder you have is more than capable of operating all the lighting features of this model. We just have to eliminate the mismatched mapping, or decide that the decoder is broken.

 

There are DIP switches next to the bogie. Will you confirm that they are all switched to the ON position?

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

Edited July 15, 2020 by pauliebanger

[thestourbridgelion]

With the MX644Dplugged into the ESU tester, you should see motor turns, sound operates and Aux 1 and Aux 2 LEDs illuminated, BUT, I did not give the CVs for mapping AUX 1 and Aux 2, so I would be surprised if these were illuminated. Is That correct?

They operate off F11 on the tester. Only just realised that they are directional. They are off F11 and change between Aux 1 and 2 when you change direction. I have not attempted to map anything to F11 that must already have been in there despite the factory reset. However, nothing lights on dmu when pressing F11.

f so, only LEDs for AUX 3 and 4 are left as possibles. BUT, these are for Logic Level only. On mine, they do not illuminate unless Logic Level FO is connected

3 and 4 do not illuminate on the tester at all.

f you have observed an AUX indicated as working, was this on the model? If so, which LED and at which end? You only show one car in your photo, have you connected the other driving car? If not, how have you tested the AUXs which power the LEDs in that car? (We know you can't rely on the ESU tester for this

I get no lights on the car at all no matter what I press. Occasionally the headcode light flashes for a millisecond when I reverse direction but even this is random.

You show F1 (sound on), and lights, switched on which you report are working correctly.

sound and motor working correctly. No lights in car.

You also have F11, and F21 to F25 switched on. What have you assiged to these F keys? Will you list the CVs you used to do this? I should have explained better....you gave settings for four “F” keys yesterday so I used 22, 23,24 and 25 all the other settings were as you gave them me in the 400 range.

You said earlier that F11 was for cab lights, (these are not directional in this model), have you assigned this in the list of CVs I gave? (CV442 = 11) No. F11 does illuminate a led on the tester and is directional but I have not assigned anything to F11. It seems strange as I believe I have done a CV8 reset with a 8.

 

I can't see any point in trying to fit a second decoder for the lighting. How would you actually do this? There's no guarantee that you would have any more success than now. The decoder you have is more than capable of operating all the lighting features of this model. We just have to eliminate the mismatched mapping, or decide that the decoder is broken. It was just  a thought as a last resort. A bachman non sound decoder could be fitted in the Plux22 socket and the sound decoder could be wired to the motor, speakers and pick ups.. There is space to hard wire to the pick ups and large pads by the motor. Speakers may be more of a challenge and of course would have to disable the motor control on the decoder that’s being used  just for the lighting.

 

I really appreciate your help with these problems Paul so thanks again.

Andy Cope.

 

 

[pauliebanger]

OK, some matters arising.You keep saying factory reset. CV8 = 8 is not a factory reset, it's a reset to however Mr Soundguy programmed it in the project. He assigned F key 11 to cab lights, probably using a different mapping method.

 

That should not make any difference since I gave you a list of CVs which would have removed previous asignments (all CVs from CV32 to 46 must=0). Of course, if you reset the decoder after inputting these, then they will have reverted to Mr Soundguy settings; you will need to re-input all the CVs I gave you, but see below before doing this.

 

For now, ignore F key 11. Don't set CV442 to 11, that will cause more confusion.Do not use it as it may interfere with other tests.

 

However, the fact that it has been setup as directional has a bearing which will need to be addressed, later.

 

I'm going to assume you've assigned F keys 22, 23, 24 and 25 to A,B,Cand D respectively. Tell me if you've done anything different.

 

I can't see what you are doing, so rather than saying ' an LED lights on the tester, please tell us which one, that's what those diagnostic LEDs are for.

 

I asked if you have connected other cars. You have not said. Some functions are directional. if you don't connect the other driving car, you will not be able to see if any of the LEDs in that car are working. So if you have switched on the destination board illumination in the DMS, you will not see any light in the DMBS. You will only be testing half of the lights.The destination panels are directional and each has a separate FO (Aux). Similarly the marker and tail lights are directional.

 

Will you confirm position of DIP switches?

 

It would help if I knew how Mr Soundguy has assigned FOs. Will you please reset CV8 = 8 to eliminate any changes we have made by putting it back to the project defaults, then read the following CVs and post them here. I'll then know which to change.

 

CV61,

CVs 33 to 46

CVs 125 to 132

CVs 159 and 160

Plus any CVs between CV430 and 507 which have a value anything other than 0

 

I'll get back to you with CVs to input

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

 

Edited July 15, 2020 by pauliebanger
Edited for clarity

[thestourbridgelion]

 

OK, some matters arising.You keep saying factory reset. CV8 = 8 is not a factory reset, it's a reset to however Mr Soundguy programmed it in the project. He assigned F key 11 to cab lights, probably using a different mapping method.

ok

That should not make any difference since I gave you a list of CVs which would have removed previous asignments (all CVs from CV32 to 46 must=0). Of course, if you reset the decoder after inputting these, then they will have reverted to Mr Soundguy settings; you will need to re-input all the CVs I gave you, but see below before doing this.

I re input the CV’s you gave me after the No8 reset.32 to 46 are def at 0

 

 

For now, ignore F key 11. Don't set CV442 to 11, that will cause more confusion.Do not use it as it may interfere with other tests

ok

 

I'm going to assume you've assigned F keys 22, 23, 24 and 25 to A,B,Cand D respectively. Tell me if you've done anything different.

22, 23,24, 25 are A,B,C, and D

 

 asked if you have connected other cars. You have not said. Some functions are directional. if you don't connect the other driving car, you will not be able to see if any of the LEDs in that car are working. So if youhave switched on the destination board illumination in the DMS, you will not see any light in the DMBS. You will only be testing half of the lights.The destination panels are directional and each has a separate FO (Aux). Similarly the marker and tail lights are directional.

Sorry I had that down to answer but missed it in my reply. Yes I have tried it with all three cars-no lighting anywhere. I also meant to say that all the switches are “on”

 

 

It would help if I knew how Mr Soundguy has assigned FOs. Will you please reset CV8 = 8 to eliminate any changes we have made by putting it back to the project defaults, then read the following CVs and post them here. I'll then know which to change.

 

CV61,

CVs 33 to 46

CVs 125 to 132

CVs 159 and 160

Plus any CVs between CV430 and 507 which have a value anything other than 0

I will do this tomorrow early afternoon and let you know when I have done it.

 

 

 

[thestourbridgelion]

Quote

 

CV’s after no8 reset. All taken with decoder inserted in 3 car unit coupled up.

[pauliebanger]

OK, this is a straightforward set-up. Nothing wrong with that but lacks flexibility available with other ZIMO methods.

 

To neutralise any possible impact on what you are attempting, set CVs33, 34, 44, 45, 127 and 128 to  = 0.

 

F 11 will not now operate Aux1 and 2 (and will not be directional)

 

Now add the CVs I gave you earlier, and use the values 22, 23, 24 and 25 as before.

 

Directional marker/tail lights will be on F key 0, Saloon lighting on F key 22, Cab lights on F key 23, and F keys 24 and 25 will each illuminate one of the destination panels.

 

If this does not work, then there's a physical problem somewhere, the model seems OK per tests on DC, so it could be the PluX header is not making proper contact with the socket on the PCB, the wiring between PluX header and 21 pin adapter has errors, or the decoder is faulty/ damaged.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul