MTB Point Motors - Any Experiences?

[ejstubbs]

On 16/07/2020 at 12:24, melmerby said:

It seems that something that could be done with a diagram and a few lines of text is inevitably made into a 15 minute video demonstration.

 

With, er...poorly chosen music for the introduction, which puts you off the actual content before it's even started

[dmumford]

I have made a big investment in point motors over the years. I now have around 70 on my layout and reckon I will be near the 100 mark by the time I’m done - could be years away yet though!

i was initially using seep motors but changed to Cobalt early on. However I have found them annoyingly unreliable - even the newer IP digital ones. All the models have a tendency to “click” - ie the motor keeps running for some reason, and sounds like the gears are slipping inside.  I have also been pretty underwhelmed by Richard and DCC Concepts customer service. 
 

So I am considering changing to the MP1 motor discussed in this thread. I only need to control the frog polarity as everything else is taken care of from the computer software control. 
 

However there is no point if the reliability just isn’t there.  If anyone has any feedback after a few years of use, I would be very interested. 
 

Thanks

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, dmumford said:

I have made a big investment in point motors over the years. I now have around 70 on my layout and reckon I will be near the 100 mark by the time I’m done - could be years away yet though!

i was initially using seep motors but changed to Cobalt early on. However I have found them annoyingly unreliable - even the newer IP digital ones. All the models have a tendency to “click” - ie the motor keeps running for some reason, and sounds like the gears are slipping inside.  I have also been pretty underwhelmed by Richard and DCC Concepts customer service. 
 

So I am considering changing to the MP1 motor discussed in this thread. I only need to control the frog polarity as everything else is taken care of from the computer software control. 
 

However there is no point if the reliability just isn’t there.  If anyone has any feedback after a few years of use, I would be very interested. 
 

Thanks

Why not go to Tortoise if you want reliability? Many years of positive customer feedback on various forums.

I have 54 installed and not an inkling of anything less than 100% reliability.

The only problem I ever had with a Tortoise was one that sounded like a kids rattle when I got out of the box. It was replaced without question by the retailer.

 

The two Cobalts I tried, after about 12 months or so stuck at one end and wouldn't move without wacking them and two Traintronics TT300 where again after regular use for a while the clutch started slipping too much at the end of travel and not switching off.

Seeps - Tried them as well, IMHO you get what you pay for.

 

Last year following the earlier discussions, I decided to try the MTB MP1 and invested in a couple for a new crossover where their small size would be a virtue.

(The crossover is on a lifting section of track and I recessed them underneath into the 22mm timber.)

They were easy to install and set up with various throw and operating pin settings available. They have operated faultlessly since.

They are however noisy compared to stall motors.

 

EDIT

I assume they are selling well as DCC Train Automation now have large stocks, (currently showing 131!) that wasn't the case earlier.

 

 

Edited April 10, 2021 by melmerby

[dmumford]

44 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Why not go to Tortoise if you want reliability? Many years of positive customer feedback on various forums.

I have 54 installed and not an inkling of anything less than 100% reliability.

The only problem I ever had with a Tortoise was one that sounded like a kids rattle when I got out of the box. It was replaced without question by the retailer.

 

The two Cobalts I tried, after about 12 months or so stuck at one end and wouldn't move without wacking them and two Traintronics TT300 where again after regular use for a while the clutch started slipping too much at the end of travel and not switching off.

Seeps - Tried them as well, IMHO you get what you pay for.

 

Last year following the earlier discussions, I decided to try the MTB MP1 and invested in a couple for a new crossover where their small size would be a virtue.

(The crossover is on a lifting section of track and I recessed them underneath into the 22mm timber.)

They were easy to install and set up with various throw and operating pin settings available. They have operated faultlessly since.

They are however noisy compared to stall motors.

 

EDIT

I assume they are selling well as DCC Train Automation now have large stocks, (currently showing 131!) that wasn't the case earlier.

 

 

I always thought the tortoise motors were larger (I model in N gauge, so space can be tight under the baseboards) and also had not heard good things about their reliability. I was just watching a YouTube video, and think they are amazingly similar to the Cobalts?

Edited April 10, 2021 by dmumford

[ikcdab]

Why bother with any of those when simple servos linked to miniature relays arr quiet, inexpensive, reliable and easy to use?

 

[jpendle]

16 minutes ago, dmumford said:

I always thought the tortoise motors were larger (I model in N gauge, so space can be tight under the baseboards) and also had not heard good things about their reliability. I was just watching a YouTube video, and think they are amazingly similar to the Cobalts?

Its the other way round. The Tortoise is the older design.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[melmerby]

2 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

Why bother with any of those when simple servos linked to miniature relays arr quiet, inexpensive, reliable and easy to use?

 

Having tried servos but never actually installed them on the layout I would disagree with that, they are much noisier than stall motors.

They are also not as easy to fit as a MP1 point motor

 

Sitting in front of me on the bench is a Digikeijs DR4024 and a pile of SG90 servos. I've also tried Arduino sketches for DCC decoders driving servos.

The cheap servos are not 100% reliable. Buy the high quality ones and you get reliability but pay for it.

[WIMorrison]

There are details in this thread of how the motor works in all the detail you could ever want plus tests that show how reliable it is.

 

Drehscheibe Online Forum

 

I suggest viewing in a browser that support automatic translation

 

[ikcdab]

8 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Having tried servos but never actually installed them on the layout I would disagree with that, they are much noisier than stall motors.

They are also not as easy to fit as a MP1 point motor

 

Sitting in front of me on the bench is a Digikeijs DR4024 and a pile of SG90 servos. I've also tried Arduino sketches for DCC decoders driving servos.

The cheap servos are not 100% reliable. Buy the high quality ones and you get reliability but pay for it.

Well yes it depends which ones you buy. I bought some cheap Chinese ones and had a 70% failure rate.

On the other hand, I then bought them from Hobbyking for around £2.50 each (they have a white casing) and I have had 100% reliability. And those ones are virtually silent...

[melmerby]

The other thing with servos, unlike both the MP1 and Tortoise (& Cobalt etc.) is that you need a controller.

DC users just need a switch to operate the other motors from 12v DC

[Andymsa]

1 hour ago, dmumford said:

I always thought the tortoise motors were larger (I model in N gauge, so space can be tight under the baseboards) and also had not heard good things about their reliability. I was just watching a YouTube video, and think they are amazingly similar to the Cobalts?

although a similar concept they are nothing alike, I have around 260 tortoises installed and rising and only had a issue with one. A simple mod resolves this issue re-occurring, if any wants to know the mod I can explain. There is the size issue but I have used a few different mounting solutions for the tortoises especially where clearances are a problem. I do have one mtb but it’s still in its packaging so can’t speak for those for long term reliability. One thing you can do with a tortoise that you can’t with a colbalt or mtb is throw the motor by hand, this is especially good when setting up the throw of the point if you don’t want to much pressure on the blades of the point. As to reliability I have not seen any thing concerning apart from the odd thing, but I have seen many complaints about colbalts. That said with any device like point motors there are always good and bad with each manufacturer and there are those who like colbalts and mtbs. I’m not knocking the colbalts or mtbs but giving my experience with tortoises.

[Andymsa]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

The other thing with servos, unlike both the MP1 and Tortoise (& Cobalt etc.) is that you need a controller.

DC users just need a switch to operate the other motors from 12v DC

nothing wrong with the statement, but if doing automation or want the points dcc controlled then a controller will be needed for colbalts, tortoises ect. Unless it’s a colbalt ip then it’s built in.

[Giles]

 

[njee20]

13 hours ago, ikcdab said:

Why bother with any of those when simple servos linked to miniature relays arr quiet, inexpensive, reliable and easy to use?

 

I started with servos, principally for their low cost. I use cheap Chinese ones, and have had 1 out of 60 fail, which I’ll take! However, add in the price of the Megapoints boards (in my case) to power them, plus the add on to join the panels, plus the DCC interface, the servo mounts, the micro switches, which I found unreliable, so tended to use Gaugemaster Autofrog modules then the cost is comparable. Then you still get them doing weird things, chattering, twitching on start up, mine all cycle in unison when there’s a short, which is bloody annoying. Now I’m starting a new layout I’m in two minds about whether to continue, given the sunk cost, or get rid of the lot and buy something else; the MTB mounts are a compelling prospect. 

Edited April 11, 2021 by njee20

[Oldddudders]

I have fewer tortoise motors than some in this thread, but I have had no failures in 14 years of use. Importantly, Tortoise motors, whether the points are in normal or reverse position, use a tiny current to hold the point. So, unlike snap motors, e.g. Peco, the motor is silently on all the time. I never switch the mains off when leaving the railway barn, so those motors have been under power continuously for 14 years. I call that reliable. 

[ikcdab]

22 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I have fewer tortoise motors than some in this thread, but I have had no failures in 14 years of use. Importantly, Tortoise motors, whether the points are in normal or reverse position, use a tiny current to hold the point. So, unlike snap motors, e.g. Peco, the motor is silently on all the time. I never switch the mains off when leaving the railway barn, so those motors have been under power continuously for 14 years. I call that reliable. 

Thread drift....I am paranoid about switching everything off when I leave my railway barn. It's three 16v  transformers and my 12v supply. I know it's irrational (we never, of course, switch the fridge off and don't expect that to burst into flames) but I couldn't rest knowing it was all on. Apart from that, there just seems no point to leaving out all on. 

[njee20]

I notice the MTB1s are available for ~€12.50 from a number of European retailers. Of course none will ship to the UK. If you could get them to remove the tax on that they’d be ~£12 landed, which isn’t bad at all. 

[melmerby]

1 minute ago, njee20 said:

I notice the MTB1s are available for ~€12.50 from a number of European retailers. Of course none will ship to the UK. If you could get them to remove the tax on that they’d be ~£12 landed, which isn’t bad at all. 

HMRC/RM will add the appropriate rate of tax/VAT on arrival and they will likely end up more than DCC Automation's price.

 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Giles said:

 

Looks likeyou used the MP1 as inspiration and scaled it up somewhat!

Edited April 11, 2021 by melmerby

[ikcdab]

1 hour ago, njee20 said:

I started with servos, principally for their low cost. I use cheap Chinese ones, and have had 1 out of 60 fail, which I’ll take! However, add in the price of the Megapoints boards (in my case) to power them, plus the add on to join the panels, plus the DCC interface, the servo mounts, the micro switches, which I found unreliable, so tended to use Gaugemaster Autofrog modules then the cost is comparable. Then you still get them doing weird things, chattering, twitching on start up, mine all cycle in unison when there’s a short, which is bloody annoying. Now I’m starting a new layout I’m in two minds about whether to continue, given the sunk cost, or get rid of the lot and buy something else; the MTB mounts are a compelling prospect. 

We all know that cost isn't everything, reliability and efficiency etc are more important. But just to be clear on costs.

I use Hobbyking hk15178 servos which I have found totally reliable and virtually silent:

 

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/hobbykingtm-hk15178-analog-servo-1-4kg-0-09sec-10g.html

 

£1.77 each.

Servo mounts. I have used the megapoints ones that are £12 for 12. I have also made my own at negible cost. So allow £1 per point.

Then you need a servo driver. I have used both megapoints and MERG.

Megapoints do a board for 12 that cost £63 when I bought it. The MERG one is £6 for 5.

 Postage, wire and switches and common to all solutions so I have ignored.

So for me, MERG works out at roughly £4 per point and megapoints at £8 per point. 

 

The MERG boards are self assembly kits and you need to be a member to buy them, but that gives other benefits.

 

That's my DC costs for a totally reliable, simple and virtually silent system. DCC guys might have extra costs I am unaware of!

[njee20]

I’ve no issue with the cost or noise of the servos, mine were less than £1 each, and like I say, the failure rate was low. 
 

Take a layout with 30 motors, not an inordinate number:

 

- £1 per servo: £30

- 3x Megapoints boards: £180

- multi panel processor: £84

- DCC module: £30

- mounts: £30

- micro switches £10

cost per turnout: £12

 

i used aluminium channel for the mounts, which works well, but with handbuilt track I was after something with lateral movement and harder end stops, like the Dingo mounts, they’re £6 per turnout. Then I found the micro switch method wasn’t totally reliable, so added GM Autofrogs. That makes the cost per turnout £22, and you still have issues with chattering, cycling etc. 
 

To drag this back on topic I see MTB are doing a retail boxed set of 8 motors with a Digikeijs DR4018. Shame it’s not 16 motors, given it’s a 16-channel decoder, but even so.  I’m increasingly tempted to at least try a few!

[njee20]

27 minutes ago, melmerby said:

HMRC/RM will add the appropriate rate of tax/VAT on arrival and they will likely end up more than DCC Automation's price.

 

They’re €12.50 including local VAT, so if retailers removed that (as they’re supposed to) it’s basically net neutral, depends how many you buy, but you should be able to get them here for about £12 each. I need about 70, so that’s a material saving versus buying here. However they won’t even ship to the UK, let alone process the sale without local VAT, so it’s totally moot. Hopefully the changes for intra-EU postage in the summer requiring those changes anyway will make them more receptive to UK-postage. 

[Enterprisingwestern]

41 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

there just seems no point to leaving out all on. 

 

Very good!

 

Mike.

[dmumford]

28 minutes ago, njee20 said:

However they won’t even ship to the UK

As I am in Ireland, that doesn’t matter to me. If anyone is thinking of buying from a European retailer, don’t use FedEx! I bought from a UK retailer and they have billed me €70 for duty on a €150 purchase plus trying to double charge me their own carriage charges, which I had already paid to the retailer

[melmerby]

36 minutes ago, njee20 said:

 Then I found the micro switch method wasn’t totally reliable,

Interesting.

What wasn't reliable, the microswitch or the actuation of it?