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After a sale on eBay how long is it reasonable for a seller to assume responsibility for an item?


GWR-fan
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Three weeks ago a buyer took delivery of a new condition super detail A4 locomotive.  The loco was part of a train pack with three super detail Hornby Gresley teak coaches.  I feel that one's priority on receiving a new loco purchase would be to test the loco for operation to confirm the seller's description.  There may be a circumstance where the buyer may not immediately be able to test his purchase upon receipt of same.   The buyer had the item in his possession for just on three weeks and tonight messaged me that the valve gear on the loco had "fallen apart".   Now in the three weeks since receiving the item I have no idea as to what use or abuse the loco may have received by the buyer.  I purchased the pack new and tested on arrival then placed in storage.  Just prior listing on eBay I test ran the loco for several minutes in both directions and would never have sold the item if I thought that it had an issue. 

 

Now three weeks later after receiving the item am I still responsible for the locomotive's current predicament?  If he had just received the loco and immediately reported it had an issue then I would feel a sense of duty to correct the situation,  but I feel that three weeks have passed.  To avoid a possible dispute I sent the buyer more than reasonable compensation that would more than account for any repairs to the loco.  After what period is the buyer responsible for any repairs on his purchase?

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Thats a difficult one. Had the buyer left you feedback?

 

My gut feeling is that three weeks is too long to at least check that the item is as described and in working order. Certainly something in the original packaging, virtually brand new, there is no reason to suggest that the broken valve gear is anything other than as a result of actions by the buyer (either he dropped it, or damaged it in some other way during operation). 

 

But would ebay, or paypal see it that way? Probably not. Which comes back to the feedback. If they have given you positive feedback, then that surely indicates that thet have checked the item and found it was as described and in working order (unless sold as non-working, of course), and maybe you could use that in any dispute with paypal? 

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After 21 years, ebay still remains the best way for me to dispose of surplus items - especially with promotional offers the overall 'commission' can be kept to around 5% as opposed to 40-60% via conventional auction, sale to model shops or dealers etc. This is what I have to balance against the very small number of issues that require me to accept a return or refund even if I might consider the matter to have beyond my control. I keep the tracking receipts for every item for six months, because it is only after then that there is no comeback - ebay requires disputes to be lodged within 45 days but PayPal can initiate a chargeback under bank rules up to 6 months after a transaction.

 

Most buyers are fine, many have been brilliant and a small number have been complete pains, but overall the best course of action is to be unfailingly polite, follow the book and (as in this case) be pragmatic about agreeing a part refund if in truth it is the least hassle of any of the options.

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Hornby A4's are very good .

 

The one problem is that people pick them up by the sides, at the same time the Valve Gear get pushed in . Run the Loco and it will probably jam solid when next used.

 

I would'nt refund, tell him to return it and take it from there. There are a lot of chancers on ebay ,who try it on to try and get money off. If he is one you wont hear anything else from him.

 

Bad feedback ? Just do a counter reply to the comment. Dont worry about the negative feedback.

 

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I believe that the buyer has 30 days to open a return dispute over any of their items.

 

I agree with the above comments. Ask for photos of the damage - I’ve had it before where people have tried to return non-working models to me by buying a duplicate I was selling. Not that there is currently any evidence of that in this case, but you are entitled to ask for evidence.

 

i also wouldn’t take it lying down if you are forced to make a return based upon this. I forced the issue that I’d been deliberately sent a broken model that was in perfect working order hence I sold it and I damn well won in the end. So don’t take it in good humour if you think that the model has been broken by the buyer

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I had one like this a few years ago.  Sold him a Hornby 47 on eBay in the run up to a Christmas.   Some time during the ensuing January, after I had  left positive feedback, the buyer contacted me asking for a price reduction of £7 for a replacement armature.   I pointed out that he had the use of the loco throughout the Christmas holidays and I could not be responsible for faults which developed later.  As a gesture of goodwill I offered return for refund.  He refused to return the loco, said he wanted to keep the loco but maintained his demand for £7.   I reminded him that asking for a discount after winning an item was unfair to the next highest bidder but as a gesture of goodwill I sent him the £7.   He left negative feedback - "Unhelpful seller accused me of breaking the item".    Needless to say I blocked this chancer.  Annoyingly he still has 100% positive feedback because he only buys on eBay and never sells.

Edited by cessna152towser
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Thankyou all for your comments.  the buyer had previously purchased from me on two occasions and in neither case did he post feedback.  I find now that buyers are awaiting a reminder response before initiating any feedback,  if ever.  The reminder seems to come about six weeks after the sale.  This leads me to believe that by not posting feedback the buyer is giving himself a timeframe to use the model and then if an issue arises in that period then he claims an item received not as described.  Morally,  once a buyer uses an item then surely he takes responsibility for it.  How could a seller be held liable several weeks after the buyer takes delivery?  I had a "friend" many years ago who would run a loco to destruction,  then purchase a similar item (roadname irrelevant) from a hobby shop,  take it home and swap out the mechanism and then return the item purchased the previous day as faulty and get a refund.  Similarly,  if a buyer has used an item multiple times over several weeks and then claims the item has developed an issue then I see this in the same vein as my friend's immoral action.

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I have to admit that I purchase items from eBay but then don't immediately check their running properties!  I've not (touched wood) had many issues but I did buy a Lima/Bachmann hybrid loco which was described as a good runner, but on checking it at my local model shop it ran somewhat hesitantly.  One of the 'helpers' suggested the motor simply needed stripping down and cleaning, and as he wasn't busy did so for me, stripping the Bachmann motor right down into its various parts. After soaking in a cleaning bath, he dried it and reassembled it, and the whole motor looked much cleaner than before. However, when we tried it again, it was dead! If I had just tried the loco and not been happy with the running, I would have felt justified contacting the seller and saying so. But because somebody had messed with it (with my permission), I no longer felt that was right to do!

 

Another Bachmann loco I won at a very reasonable price ran beautifully when tested - backwards. Forwards was an entirely different matter, and I was advised that maybe the armature needing replacing. In that instance, I contacted the seller and said about the running problems but was told that it had run fine when he had tested it. I suppose it is what you define as "running fine" but I simply won't buy from that seller again!

 

I bought several wagons from another seller, and selected "Click & Collect".  However, I didn't get notification of them arriving and when I found out about them they had been returned to the seller. I requested they be sent again and he sent me a message asking for payment for postage. Unfortunately, I got busy with other things and several months passed before I realised I had forgotten about them. I contacted the seller again but no response. I can only assume that they have been sold a second time! The total sale was only around £10 so I am not chasing after it, as it was entirely my fault. I am certain that some would kick up a fuss, however.

 

As far as eBay is concerned, I think it is like that saying from the Bible, "Do unto others that which you would have done upon yourself" (or words to that effect!). In the situation of the OP, I don't think there should be any comeback on the seller (and I'd say the same if it was myself as the buyer).

 

Steve S

Edited by SteveyDee68
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I see that the OP has already given some compensation to the buyer, so in this instance photos/returning the item etc. isn't an option.  However, I had an instance (as a seller) that a vintage electric drill (tested working) I sold was declared to be u/s on receipt.  I sent messages to the buyer, with no response - so I sent a returns label via ebay;  the drill was never returned - and since the label was never used there was no cost to me.  So I guess he was either a chancer, fixed the issue (if indeed there was one) or just couldn't be bothered.

 

One thought - if ever you get something back in similar circumstances I'd be inclined to video it being unwrapped, just in case someone sends you a house brick in place of a hundred quid loco - with the tracking proving to ebay that that the "loco" had been returned.....

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IIRC eBay buyers can have up to 3 months to report a problem and there was talk of them extending it to six, something to do with EEC rules on distance selling.

 

I had one were I sold a Farish Deltic DCC fitted, the buyer left positive feedback, do I left him positive feedback.  A month later he started a return saying it's derailing, which I accepted, only when I got it back the buyer had removed the decoder and kept it.

 

EBay did nothing and refunded him in full.

 

There are those who know how the system works and when to work it :(

Edited by Paul80
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I had an odd one some years ago, a Hornby Class 50 that I reckon was jinxed.  It has the usual minor issues as per normal for a used example of this model but nothing major and I illustrated all the issues.

 

It duly sold and off it went.

 

Over a month later I get a message from the buyer in very well written Tunbridge Wells on Basildon Bond like prose saying that now he had had a chance to examine the item, he noted some issues that were not described in the listing (oh yes they were!!) and he wished to return it for a refund.

 

I rolled my eyes upwards, got the loco back and issued the refund. 

 

One thing though, apart from putting a new address label on it, the parcel was exactly the same as when I had posted it off, it had never been opened!!

 

I am more wary of anything like this now where time has elapsed...

Edited by John M Upton
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3 hours ago, Paul80 said:

IIRC eBay buyers can have up to 3 months to report a problem and there was talk of them extending it to six, something to do with EEC rules on distance selling.

 

I had one were I sold a Farish Deltic DCC fitted, the buyer left positive feedback, do I left him positive feedback.  A month later he started a return saying it's derailing, which I accepted, only when I got it back the buyer had removed the decoder and kept it.

 

EBay did nothing and refunded him in full.

 

There are those who know how the system works and when to work it :(

 

One day someone will play a stunt like that once too often (if they haven't already) and six months down the line the seller might just even things out.....

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Surely when an item is purchased as "used" or secondhand then the sale should be treated differently to that of a retailer selling a new item with a manufacturer warranty.   There is no warranty on used items unless the seller explicitly details the conditions of the warranty.  Unless otherwise specified a manufacturer warranty is not transferable to a party other than the original purchaser.  If a seller defines his listing as a new item then I feel that he has a responsibility to offer some type of guarantee.  As I am the original purchaser of most of my items then I do not consider the items as new and thus offer no warranty or guarantee.  I accurately detail the item providing as many images as possible.  If an item fails several weeks down the track then how am I responsible.   

 

Going on the described condition of many pre-owned items I see on the Hattons website,  many modellers are not particularly careful of how they handle their models with many having multiple marks and missing detail parts.  Manufacturers factor in a failure rate on their items when offering a warranty.  When I sell an item,  it is a single item,  accurately described and should a failure occur some weeks later then I consider the failure to be due to either abuse or mishandling.  However,  the eBay structure favours on the side of the buyer so most disputes are found in favour of the buyer, seemingly irrespective of any evidence the seller may offer.   It irks me having to compensate a buyer for damage that I believe is self incurred,  but what is more irritating is dealing with a dispute through eBay knowing that no matter what you say,  a ruling will be made against you and a compensation or full refund demand made against your account.

 

If eBay were to impose conditions allowing a buyer to make demands on a seller several months after the sale then eBay sellers will be the likes of the major power sellers with their hundreds of negative feedback reports every month.  For the likes of most of us,  eBay will be simply too expensive and not worth selling items and the used market for model railway items will be lost.

 

 

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26 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

One day someone will play a stunt like that once too often (if they haven't already) and six months down the line the seller might just even things out.....

 

One downfall of the eBay privacy policy is that unless a buyer is a regular customer of a seller,  then the past performance of any bidder or purchaser of one's listing is mostly an unknown quantity.  If a person has a habit of multiple bid retractions,  product returns,  claims for compensation or full refunds,  disputes engaged in or even a vindictive person who regularly posts negative feedback, then surely that information is relevant to a seller.   When a seller receives a bid on an auction item then he is able to look at the bidder's feedback history,  but how many sellers investigate a bidder that deeply.   The purpose of a listing is to sell an item either to the highest bidder or at an agreed buy it now price.  A seller should not have to investigate the credentials or honesty of bidders on his items.  Fortunately,  the majority of bidders or buyers encountered are honest individuals,  however,  I have a fairly extensive blocked bidders list as I refuse to deal with fools or those who make unreasonable demands or statements when buying an item of messaging via the eBay platform.  Unless blocked,  a seller has very few conditions he is able to impose on bidders on his items to exclude them from his listings.   

Edited by GWR-fan
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On 17/07/2020 at 11:41, GWR-fan said:

 

 Fortunately,  the majority of bidders or buyers encountered are honest individuals,  however,  I have a fairly extensive blocked bidders list as I refuse to deal with fools or those who make unreasonable demands or statements when buying an item of messaging via the eBay platform.  Unless blocked,  a seller has very few conditions he is able to impose on bidders on his items to exclude them from his listings.   

 

Ditto - I'll block a bidder for the slightest reason which may seem perhaps slightly churlish but I've run out of patience with chancers & scammers.

Also, I'm always wary that addresses have been exchanged so it pays sometimes to be a little careful of allowing disputes to "hot up" too much. Much as it pains us, there is, unfortunately a small element of thieving low life toe-rags that inhabit this hobby.. that's life I guess.

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On 15/11/2020 at 11:56, Andymsa said:

Reading through this thread is exactly why I now don’t sell on eBay as it’s far to loaded towards buyers.

 

 

 

From what I have experienced the exact opposite for nearly 20 years. Yes there are a few dodgy buyers out there and equally a few dodgy sellers. Ebay reflects the society we live in. But in my experience railway modellers on the whole are far more honest and reasonable than the average person.

 

As a buyer I have no issues buying second hand model railway items off eBay, providing the item is as described I am happy if not I have eBay's buyers protection. If something develops a fault its down to me.  Again I am happy to sell items on eBay, again because I have eBay's sellers protection. I never describe something as new as I am not a retailer, even if its still sealed up in its original packing (I do state its condition, eg still sealed up etc) and with all locos I suggest they are given a service. even if they work fine. I also try and take photos from all angles.

 

I have had few issues as a seller, and all have been resolved to both parties satisfaction. buying the main issue has been poor packaging, easy to see and in most cases easy to resolve.

 

Please tell me, what other options are there to obtain a fair retail price out there other than via eBay ? 

 

Most of the items I have sold could not have achieved anything like the net amounts I have got through selling on eBay. If it was as bad as you assume no one in their right mind would use them

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19 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

From what I have experienced the exact opposite for nearly 20 years. Yes there are a few dodgy buyers out there and equally a few dodgy sellers. Ebay reflects the society we live in. But in my experience railway modellers on the whole are far more honest and reasonable than the average person.

 

As a buyer I have no issues buying second hand model railway items off eBay, providing the item is as described I am happy if not I have eBay's buyers protection. If something develops a fault its down to me.  Again I am happy to sell items on eBay, again because I have eBay's sellers protection. I never describe something as new as I am not a retailer, even if its still sealed up in its original packing (I do state its condition, eg still sealed up etc) and with all locos I suggest they are given a service. even if they work fine. I also try and take photos from all angles.

 

I have had few issues as a seller, and all have been resolved to both parties satisfaction. buying the main issue has been poor packaging, easy to see and in most cases easy to resolve.

 

Please tell me, what other options are there to obtain a fair retail price out there other than via eBay ? 

 

Most of the items I have sold could not have achieved anything like the net amounts I have got through selling on eBay. If it was as bad as you assume no one in their right mind would use them


On first glance you appeared to have been lucky in your eBay dealings, but reading on you have had problems, isn’t this somewhat contradictory in nature. You was lucky you were able to resolve the issues you had, but this thread is not alone in complaints about ebay. Yes in the main most people are honest and this is not just confined to railway modellers, but in all aspects of life there is a certain type of person who will always give grief, the problem with ebay that when it happens on there it is an up hill struggle to prove as a seller your right as it appears from ebays perspective your guilty. The ebay policies are far too loaded towards buyers which is why I may buy the odd item but even then I am very selective who I buy from. 
 

Recently I sold some stuff at a boot fair and I was happy with the price, other methods I have used is Facebook.
 

im not assuming anything but quote from the posts I have read here and on other threads on various groups as well, also YouTube videos on the subject. You say no one in there right mind would use them if My assumed problems was as bad as it is, but as the biggest player in the online auction market and widest reach they have a captive market and I’m sure many are not even aware or read the terms and conditions before they sell an item or even care about them until a problem occurs.
 

in the end it’s a trade off between potential problems and getting the best price for an item and reaching the widest audience, and my post related that I don’t take that chance now. If others wish to sell on eBay that’s freedom and choice to do so, at least one freedom that’s not been taken away as yet.

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55 minutes ago, Andymsa said:


On first glance you appeared to have been lucky in your eBay dealings, but reading on you have had problems, isn’t this somewhat contradictory in nature. You was lucky you were able to resolve the issues you had, but this thread is not alone in complaints about ebay. Yes in the main most people are honest and this is not just confined to railway modellers, but in all aspects of life there is a certain type of person who will always give grief, the problem with ebay that when it happens on there it is an up hill struggle to prove as a seller your right as it appears from ebays perspective your guilty. The ebay policies are far too loaded towards buyers which is why I may buy the odd item but even then I am very selective who I buy from. 
 

Recently I sold some stuff at a boot fair and I was happy with the price, other methods I have used is Facebook.
 

im not assuming anything but quote from the posts I have read here and on other threads on various groups as well, also YouTube videos on the subject. You say no one in there right mind would use them if My assumed problems was as bad as it is, but as the biggest player in the online auction market and widest reach they have a captive market and I’m sure many are not even aware or read the terms and conditions before they sell an item or even care about them until a problem occurs.
 

in the end it’s a trade off between potential problems and getting the best price for an item and reaching the widest audience, and my post related that I don’t take that chance now. If others wish to sell on eBay that’s freedom and choice to do so, at least one freedom that’s not been taken away as yet.

 

I may have been lucky, or could it be carefull. I sold virtually all of my RTR items years ago, most of the bad issues seem with RTR items.. For many years now I mainly have brought and sold kits or parts for kit building, perhaps this sifts out the chancers. But with very few exceptions buyers and sellers I come in contact with are very nice people. For the items I am interested in excludes expensive RTR items and most are unavailable in the shops. In the past old kits and kit built items had little value, eBay has established a thriving market for these kits and associated parts. 

 

The issues I have had have been as a buyer in all cases they have been down to bad/poor packaging. These matters were solved by seller, as at all times its down to the seller to safely dispatch the item, and where necessary reclaim compensation from the carrier. I think only 2 went to a dispute and both of us had to supply details to eBay and await eBays decision. Why does it have to be an uphill struggle, even the two disputed cases were straight forward. eBay askes both parties to put forward their case and adjudicate appropriately. Don't forget eBay need sellers as much as buyers, I can only comment on how I find them 

 

No contradictions at all in fact I have had worse problems with house hold name retailers. However you give the impression you have no personal experience "im not assuming anything but quote from the posts" You will only get negative feedback in these posts, read all buyers feed backs. If all you read is negative posts, then naturally you will have a negative opinion. Have you ever sold anything in eBay? if so have you had any experience of any disputed cases ?

 

As a seller I have had 2 items lost in the post, the Royal Mail paid out both times quickly, and 2 items damaged in the post. My fault for not taking enough care, both times I came to an arrangement that suited us both. Neither resulted in a dispute, why let it get that far ? Lets face it if it arrived damaged and I packed it properly the courier will compensate me if I have abided by their terms !!

 

eBay has the largest selling platform, as a buyer a fantastic amount of Model Railway stock & parts, as a seller an unequaled amount of  buyers paying top prices.  I have looked at 2 different Facebook selling sites I cannot find anything worthwhile to buy.

 

Everything in life is a trade off, ebay offers me as a buyer an extremely unparalleled source of model railway items, many if you look carefully at extremely advantageous prices. Now I am going to contradict my self here. As a seller providing I invest the time in presentation I get the widest audience of any selling platform, usually obtaining excellent prices and at extremely competitive commision rates.

 

As you say its a free world do as you wish, and provided you are happy with it all is well. 

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37 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

I may have been lucky, or could it be carefull. I sold virtually all of my RTR items years ago, most of the bad issues seem with RTR items.. For many years now I mainly have brought and sold kits or parts for kit building, perhaps this sifts out the chancers. But with very few exceptions buyers and sellers I come in contact with are very nice people. For the items I am interested in excludes expensive RTR items and most are unavailable in the shops. In the past old kits and kit built items had little value, eBay has established a thriving market for these kits and associated parts. 

 

The issues I have had have been as a buyer in all cases they have been down to bad/poor packaging. These matters were solved by seller, as at all times its down to the seller to safely dispatch the item, and where necessary reclaim compensation from the carrier. I think only 2 went to a dispute and both of us had to supply details to eBay and await eBays decision. Why does it have to be an uphill struggle, even the two disputed cases were straight forward. eBay askes both parties to put forward their case and adjudicate appropriately. Don't forget eBay need sellers as much as buyers, I can only comment on how I find them 

 

No contradictions at all in fact I have had worse problems with house hold name retailers. However you give the impression you have no personal experience "im not assuming anything but quote from the posts" You will only get negative feedback in these posts, read all buyers feed backs. If all you read is negative posts, then naturally you will have a negative opinion. Have you ever sold anything in eBay? if so have you had any experience of any disputed cases ?

 

As a seller I have had 2 items lost in the post, the Royal Mail paid out both times quickly, and 2 items damaged in the post. My fault for not taking enough care, both times I came to an arrangement that suited us both. Neither resulted in a dispute, why let it get that far ? Lets face it if it arrived damaged and I packed it properly the courier will compensate me if I have abided by their terms !!

 

eBay has the largest selling platform, as a buyer a fantastic amount of Model Railway stock & parts, as a seller an unequaled amount of  buyers paying top prices.  I have looked at 2 different Facebook selling sites I cannot find anything worthwhile to buy.

 

Everything in life is a trade off, ebay offers me as a buyer an extremely unparalleled source of model railway items, many if you look carefully at extremely advantageous prices. Now I am going to contradict my self here. As a seller providing I invest the time in presentation I get the widest audience of any selling platform, usually obtaining excellent prices and at extremely competitive commision rates.

 

As you say its a free world do as you wish, and provided you are happy with it all is well. 


yes I have had personal experience of ebay issues as a buyer mostly and fortunately only once did I have to raise a dispute. 
 

This is a link from you tube done by a very experienced seller this is what I mean by an uphill struggle. the most oddest thing I have had happen is I sold a wagon, sent it off, I got positive feedback and a couple of weeks later it got returned as undeliverable. I contacted the buyer who said send it when he tells me and I never heard anything more. I kept it for 6 years all wrapped up still and eventually I sold it to another buyer.

 

yes you are right about the amount of choice of items available, I guess it’s a case of buyer beware or seller.


 

 

Edited by Andymsa
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On 17/07/2020 at 07:02, polybear said:

I see that the OP has already given some compensation to the buyer, so in this instance photos/returning the item etc. isn't an option.  However, I had an instance (as a seller) that a vintage electric drill (tested working) I sold was declared to be u/s on receipt.  I sent messages to the buyer, with no response - so I sent a returns label via ebay;  the drill was never returned - and since the label was never used there was no cost to me.  So I guess he was either a chancer, fixed the issue (if indeed there was one) or just couldn't be bothered.

 

 

Perhaps the 'vintage electric drill' electrocuted the buyer?

 

Surely such things are sold as collectors items, not for use? Caveat emptor.

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