009 for beginners (on a budget)

[Helmdon]

Hi all, house move still on hold so the GC 1950s magnum opus remains in its boxes.... deep breath.... however, after saving money through not going to the pub for 4 months (or indeed anywhere else) I've accidentally indulged the other great railway passion of mine, the Lynton and Barnstaple, with the purchase of a locomotive and a couple of coaches. Initially this was with the intention of just having something nice to look at, but I was surprised that my wife is actively encouraging me to get on with building a small layout because (presumably)

- she's worried about me getting cabin fever

- she knows that all my stock and ancillaries for building a 16' x 12' GC magnum opus being in boxes is getting me down, and thinks I could work off some frustration on a small layout/diorama. 

 

The issue is that I know literally nothing about 009 so, if you were going to knock up something say 4'x2' - end to end as potentially modelling a yard so not chasing its tail, but wanted to use cheap and cheerful track, controller, etc what would you buy?* At the moment as I say I've got a loco and 2 coaches so this really is starting at the bottom and doing it on the cheap. Feel a bit out of my depth really but at least it's keeping me occupied outside work!

 

thanks for any thoughts.

 

*this is going to get knocked up relatively quickly ideally -I don't want to make it disposable exactly, but at the same time if we move before Christmas(!) then I'll be straight onto the bigger project so it really is filling in time more than anything. 

[009 micro modeller]

What sort of loco is it? Some modern 009/H0e locos (Minitrains etc.) do not like feedback controllers.

[Helmdon]

4 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

What sort of loco is it? Some modern 009/H0e locos (Minitrains etc.) do not like feedback controllers.

Brand new Heljan Taw (everything else is on a budget, but the loco and coaches are straight out of the box)

[009 micro modeller]

Just now, Helmdon said:

Brand new Heljan Taw (everything else is on a budget, but the loco and coaches are straight out of the box)

 

OK, I don’t have one myself but does it have a coreless motor? I think this is what creates the problems with feedback controllers. In terms of control equipment I’ve recently acquired a Minitrains controller but in the past have successfully used one of these for 009 (cheaper second hand ones are available). For track I can’t see that there’s a cheaper or better alternative to Peco. Are you looking to get more stock and do you have a plan or prototype in mind?

[Helmdon]

14 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

OK, I don’t have one myself but does it have a coreless motor? I think this is what creates the problems with feedback controllers. In terms of control equipment I’ve recently acquired a Minitrains controller but in the past have successfully used one of these for 009 (cheaper second hand ones are available). For track I can’t see that there’s a cheaper or better alternative to Peco. Are you looking to get more stock and do you have a plan or prototype in mind?

coreless with all wheel pick-up I think (from memory)

 

thanks for the controller suggestion (although I don't know if the coreless motor changes that?)

 

Any more stock would be of the order of a couple of wagons (L&B only really ran mixed trains, and then the train engine shunted the wagons on and off at intermediate stations!).

 

Prototype is probably Bratton Fleming before it was rationalised at the start of the 30s - i.e. platform line, loop and 2 sidings off the loop. Then I can do a bit of shunting for interest. Almost certainly leaving it at one locomotive too, so no point in DCC.

[009 micro modeller]

23 minutes ago, Helmdon said:

coreless with all wheel pick-up I think (from memory)

 

thanks for the controller suggestion (although I don't know if the coreless motor changes that?)

 

Any more stock would be of the order of a couple of wagons (L&B only really ran mixed trains, and then the train engine shunted the wagons on and off at intermediate stations!).

 

Prototype is probably Bratton Fleming before it was rationalised at the start of the 30s - i.e. platform line, loop and 2 sidings off the loop. Then I can do a bit of shunting for interest. Almost certainly leaving it at one locomotive too, so no point in DCC.

 

Actually I would double check the controllers - the Minitrains controller is pulse width modulated, while I’m slightly suspicious about the other one as it’s intended for 00. I can’t find anything to confirm whether the Minitrains locos have coreless or conventional motors, but if I knew that I could work more out. Regardless of this there seem to be a number of people saying the Minitrains controller is good for Minitrains locos (fairly obviously) but not necessarily for others. I would make absolutely sure before you power anything up. Have you tried the NG section of RMWeb?

 

In terms of wagons there are the Peco L&B ones which you probably know about, but these seem to be expensive. Dundas kits are cheaper (and plastic, fairly easy to assemble).

[The Johnster]

Peco do a very good 009 flexible track with a suitable sleeper spacing along with basic pointwork.  It has been around for years and was originally marketed as 'Crazy Track' because it features typical narrow gauge British 'distressed' sleeper ends.  With the sleepers and sides of the rails painted it look fine.  IIRC turnouts are in 9" or 12" radius; clearly 12" is preferable for Lyn and bogie vehicles.

 

Narrow gauge locos in 4mm scale are small, and thus not heavy, which can have a deleterious effect on slow speed performance and pick up.  If Lyn has any empty space inside her I'd recommend ballasting with Liquid Lead or similar to fill it, and ensuring that track is carefully laid and joined smoothly. 

[Nearholmer]

If you've got 4ft x 2ft, you might consider something based on the L&B yard and sheds at Pilton, on the outskirts of Barnstaple.

 

I'm not at all sure you'd be able to accommodate the whole thing, but you could certainly capture the essence of a very characterful place in that area.

 

Map https://maps.nls.uk/view/105998003

 

Perfect place to display your growing collection of L&B stock.

 

 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Steamport Southport]

40 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Peco do a very good 009 flexible track with a suitable sleeper spacing along with basic pointwork.  It has been around for years and was originally marketed as 'Crazy Track' because it features typical narrow gauge British 'distressed' sleeper ends.  With the sleepers and sides of the rails painted it look fine.  IIRC turnouts are in 9" or 12" radius; clearly 12" is preferable for Lyn and bogie vehicles.

 

Narrow gauge locos in 4mm scale are small, and thus not heavy, which can have a deleterious effect on slow speed performance and pick up.  If Lyn has any empty space inside her I'd recommend ballasting with Liquid Lead or similar to fill it, and ensuring that track is carefully laid and joined smoothly. 

 

They also do "proper" 009 track. Looks much more suitable for the L&B.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/31095/peco_products_sl_404_1_yard_length_of_oo9_narrow_gauge_track_with_mainline_wooden_sleepers/stockdetail.aspx

 

 

The L&B was more like a real railway than an industrial one. Possibly one of the reasons for it's downfall was it was too heavily engineered. Large modern engines, and bogie coaches and wagons.

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p206653575/ec838d8ce

 

Always wanted to model it and started to buy some kits. I've even got a couple of coach kits somewhere produced by someone called Chris Leigh!

 

 

 

Jason

[doilum]

I trust you have found the narrow gauge section of this forum. Tucked away near the end of the menu.

[Nile]

As far as Peco track is concerned, stick with the 'mainline' stuff. The L&B locos won't like the older (and smaller) points, the 'mainline' ones are 18" radius.

[Helmdon]

On 17/07/2020 at 08:25, doilum said:

I trust you have found the narrow gauge section of this forum. Tucked away near the end of the menu.

I have now... never been that far down before!

[Helmdon]

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts. I know where I am (ish) with OO as I’ve been messing around with it since the the age of four! OO9 is new....

[zarniwhoop]

I assume you've read the thread on the L&B 2-6-2T in the Heljan area, but since you said you hadn't scrolled down as the narrow-gauge section before, I think I ought to mention it. All high-detail modern stock has its weaknesses and idiosyncracies.

 

Since you are using a narrow baseboard, you might want to consider a rolling road to run-in the loco.  I guess that it might get around Roco HOe set track (about 10" radius) for running in, but I  have not tried that, and it might need 12" radius or better (which is the manufacturer's specification) for running-in on a loop.

[009 micro modeller]

7 hours ago, zarniwhoop said:

I assume you've read the thread on the L&B 2-6-2T in the Heljan area, but since you said you hadn't scrolled down as the narrow-gauge section before, I think I ought to mention it. All high-detail modern stock has its weaknesses and idiosyncracies.

 

Since you are using a narrow baseboard, you might want to consider a rolling road to run-in the loco.  I guess that it might get around Roco HOe set track (about 10" radius) for running in, but I  have not tried that, and it might need 12" radius or better (which is the manufacturer's specification) for running-in on a loop.

 

Haven’t many of the problems with the Heljan loco been fixed or improved on subsequent batches?

 

I’m pretty sure the minimum radius for these locos is 12”. Apparently some people with existing layouts with 9” radius curves have modified them to go around these but I wouldn’t recommend it. This is another argument in favour of an end-to-end or shunting layout if 4’x2’ of space is available, as it’s only possible to get a continuous run in this space if 9” radius is used.

[Helmdon]

10 hours ago, zarniwhoop said:

I assume you've read the thread on the L&B 2-6-2T in the Heljan area, but since you said you hadn't scrolled down as the narrow-gauge section before, I think I ought to mention it. All high-detail modern stock has its weaknesses and idiosyncracies.

 

Since you are using a narrow baseboard, you might want to consider a rolling road to run-in the loco.  I guess that it might get around Roco HOe set track (about 10" radius) for running in, but I  have not tried that, and it might need 12" radius or better (which is the manufacturer's specification) for running-in on a loop.

just waded through that... on the one hand, can’t believe they’ve not sorted that before they even got to market (unless It’s quality control so not affecting every unit, which feels likely).

 

on the other, keeping fingers crossed because 

 

1) I’m an L&B fan so wouldn’t be doing anything other than L&B in OO9

 

2) given the criteria in the first post it might end up being more of a diorama anyway and (though an expensive way of doing it) I’d be happy with that

 

3) given I’m starting from scratch and L&B specific, I can go with the right track work and radii to give myself a fighting chance! They’re long wheelbase locos and the L&B was more mainline anyway so thankfully wasn’t envisaging tight curves. Essentially I’m not trying to retrofit this loco onto an existing set up so much as starting with it and building outwards. Hopefully that will make things a bit easier. Famous last words.

 

Anyway, all advice continues to be gratefully accepted!

[009 micro modeller]

It’s also worth pointing out that the radius on real railways was vastly larger than is considered reasonable in 009. This gives the Talyllyn’s original minimum radius as 300ft, or 1.2 metres (about 4ft) in 4mm scale, with much smaller locos than the L&B that would commonly run on 9” curves in 009 (though this was with side buffers). I haven’t seen any figures for L&B minimum radius.

[Nearholmer]

It is worth looking at the radii used on your chosen real railway, because they varied hugely - the British standard for industrial 2ft gauge went down as far as 13ft radius, and there were even a few tiny locos that could be used at that. Not L&B ones, though!!

Edited July 19, 2020 by Nearholmer

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

It is worth looking at the radii used on your chosen real railway, because they varied hugely - the British standard for industrial 2ft gauge went down as far as 13ft radius, and there were even a few tiny locos that could be used at that. Not L&B ones, though!!

 

13ft? That’s even smaller than my Tomix N gauge curves (103mm or about 26 scale feet if I remember correctly).

[The Johnster]

Yes but this is very much an industrial curve and locos had to be specifically built for it; think slate quarries, where track is relaid in new levels and probably is less than that in places; one doubts that it was always inspected.  On a passenger railway the Board of Trade inspector has to sign off before you can run services, and radii are much larger.  4x2 feet is barely sufficient for even a small station like Bratton Fleming in 4mm, and my impulse would be to have something that runs and can be operated and shunted, rather than a diorama.  

 

This is influenced by the location of the layout in the room.  Is it shoehorned into a 4' space or is there space at the ends to which removable fiddle yards can be attached for operating sessions?  4' in 4mm is just the fat side of 100 yards to scale, and I reckon BF probably fits complete with sidings and both ends of the loop, with a good scenic 'depth' behind it and room for plenty in front, but not if you have to curve the main line through 90 degrees or more to feed fiddle yards within that length.  And you will almost certainly want to eventually have another loco and another train to pass at the loop; you can then run the actual L & B timetable.  

 

If there is enough room, and there is never enough room, it might make sense to have a fiddle yard behind the scenic box fed by 180 degree curves of set track, the curves being hidden and removable or fold-up.  

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Yes but this is very much an industrial curve and locos had to be specifically built for it; think slate quarries, where track is relaid in new levels and probably is less than that in places; one doubts that it was always inspected.  On a passenger railway the Board of Trade inspector has to sign off before you can run services, and radii are much larger.  4x2 feet is barely sufficient for even a small station like Bratton Fleming in 4mm, and my impulse would be to have something that runs and can be operated and shunted, rather than a diorama.  

 

This is influenced by the location of the layout in the room.  Is it shoehorned into a 4' space or is there space at the ends to which removable fiddle yards can be attached for operating sessions?  4' in 4mm is just the fat side of 100 yards to scale, and I reckon BF probably fits complete with sidings and both ends of the loop, with a good scenic 'depth' behind it and room for plenty in front, but not if you have to curve the main line through 90 degrees or more to feed fiddle yards within that length.  And you will almost certainly want to eventually have another loco and another train to pass at the loop; you can then run the actual L & B timetable.  

 

If there is enough room, and there is never enough room, it might make sense to have a fiddle yard behind the scenic box fed by 180 degree curves of set track, the curves being hidden and removable or fold-up.  

 

I know the tight curves were on industrial railways, I was just pointing out that even the tightest set track curves don’t represent such a small radius.

 

The problem for Helmdon in this case isn’t just the appearance of 9” radius curves but the fact that the Heljan loco won’t go round them; it requires a larger minimum radius.

[Helmdon]

Resurrecting my own thread....

 

well done whoever hinted I wouldn’t be happy with a diorama, I’ve now got all 4 MWs, and an assortment of carriages and wagons.

 

given coreless motors, what controller should I buy to not fry them?