Restoring and repainting rusty tinplate

[009 micro modeller]

I’m about to take delivery of an 0 gauge Hornby 101 tank loco (postwar) in poor condition, hopefully to slowly restore. 0 gauge tinplate is completely new to me and I bought the loco as I felt that it would be nice to do something a bit different and possibly learn some new skills in the process, although if it proves possible to restore to running condition I will probably be purchasing some track and possibly a couple of wagons to go with it. I’ve done some research into tinplate restoration but this has left me with a few (possibly slightly silly) questions:

 

Lots of people doing heavy restorations of tinplate railway items and similar tinplate toys seem to use sandblasting to remove rust before repainting. I don’t have the equipment to do this but depending on the cost I might be able to pay to have it done. On the other hand I’ve also read about ways to chemically remove rust which seem quite effective, but are there problems with this?

 

Obviously some people use powder coating to get a more authentic finish, but elsewhere I’ve also seen suggestions to bake the paint on even if using normal enamels. I would be concerned about the paint blistering and again the equipment needed, but how important is this?

 

Also for the Hornby 101 loco specifically:

 

I understand these locos have mazak wheels. I already have some old Lone Star push-along locos where I think most of the loco is made of mazak, and most of these are fine so far (I’ve had them for a while). However, mazak rot can be a problem even on relatively modern stuff. Since I will be completely dismantling the loco, is it worth replacing the wheels (I think I should be able to get hold of spares/replacement castings) even if they currently appear to be OK, to save having to take it apart again in future?

 

And finally, I know that the clockwork motors in some 0 gauge Hornby locos are similar to those in Meccano sets of a similar age but how similar?

 

Many thanks in advance.

[Nearholmer]

Wheels - If they are in good condition after all these years, I think you can be fairly certain that they will remain that way.

 

Removing existing paint - Mr Muscle spray-on oven cleaner.

 

Rust - depends how much/bad. Can you show us a photo?

[009 micro modeller]

5 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Wheels - If they are in good condition after all these years, I think you can be fairly certain that they will remain that way.

 

Removing existing paint - Mr Muscle spray-on oven cleaner.

 

Rust - depends how much/bad. Can you show us a photo?

 

Thanks for this. I could get the photo from the eBay listing but I think I’ll wait until I’m able to inspect it and take my own photos, after it arrives. I have seen oven cleaner suggested as a way to remove rust as well as old paint...

[Il Grifone]

Professional sand blasting is likely to cost more than a decent quality replacement. If the item is so rusty as to require this I'd give up. I normally use a brass brush for rust removal.

 

Post-war Meccano alloy is not going to suffer from zinc pest (pre-war is another matter). Corrosion from damp is possible however. Unless rusted up, the mechanism is likely to function, provided the spring is not broken. They usually fracture near the end and can be repaired. The last time I looked a new spring was £20.

Leave the wheels alone unless absolutely necessary. It avoids quartering problems....

 

She will need track to run on. A 101 needs 2 foot radius curves. The pre-war canted 1 foot curves should do, if you can get hold of them, but I would avoid their use. Most track is likely to be rusty, but this is not a problem with clockwork. Post-war wagons are cheap (as in a few pounds) unless you go for mint examples. Coaches are a bit dearer, but it's worth going for better examples as restoring the tinplated finish is difficult.

[PatB]

Having recently discovered the delights of Marx tinplate, on severely rusted items that require a complete strip and repaint, I've been using the vinegar bath technique. The items to be treated are dismantled and left in a covered bucket of cheap white vinegar for a week or two, being inspected and given a bit of a scrub with a toothbrush every few days. Paint comes off very quickly and easily, surface rust turns to a sort of mush and brushes away, and deeper rust is dealt with in stages as the brushing removes successive layers. Although it takes a little time, it's very safe (mind you, I'd recommend not using the vinegar on your chips afterwards), seems effective, and appears to be quite gentle on the underlying material. Even leaving pieces in the bath for 2-3 weeks, I haven't managed to remove anything but paint and rust. 

 

After removal from the bath, rinse thoroughly, dry quickly (I use a hairdryer on Martian heat-Ray setting) and get a coat of primer on immediately, as any bare steel will start to rust again, pretty much instantly. I've been using generic etch primer and aerosol acrylics from the local car accessory shop. One of the reasons I've gone for US equipment is that American railroads and toy manufacturers were most considerate by painting most of their locos in plain satin black so appropriate paint can be had almost anywhere. For UK stuff, depending on how close you want to get to original, other paint sources may be appropriate.

[009 micro modeller]

4 hours ago, PatB said:

Having recently discovered the delights of Marx tinplate, on severely rusted items that require a complete strip and repaint, I've been using the vinegar bath technique. The items to be treated are dismantled and left in a covered bucket of cheap white vinegar for a week or two, being inspected and given a bit of a scrub with a toothbrush every few days. Paint comes off very quickly and easily, surface rust turns to a sort of mush and brushes away, and deeper rust is dealt with in stages as the brushing removes successive layers. Although it takes a little time, it's very safe (mind you, I'd recommend not using the vinegar on your chips afterwards), seems effective, and appears to be quite gentle on the underlying material. Even leaving pieces in the bath for 2-3 weeks, I haven't managed to remove anything but paint and rust. 

 

After removal from the bath, rinse thoroughly, dry quickly (I use a hairdryer on Martian heat-Ray setting) and get a coat of primer on immediately, as any bare steel will start to rust again, pretty much instantly. I've been using generic etch primer and aerosol acrylics from the local car accessory shop. One of the reasons I've gone for US equipment is that American railroads and toy manufacturers were most considerate by painting most of their locos in plain satin black so appropriate paint can be had almost anywhere. For UK stuff, depending on how close you want to get to original, other paint sources may be appropriate.

 

This sounds a good technique. Is there not a risk of further corrosion from the vinegar on any deeper rust?

[PatB]

57 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

This sounds a good technique. Is there not a risk of further corrosion from the vinegar on any deeper rust?

I guess there is. Thorough rinsing is important, preferably in hot water. I also wouldn't really want to do this to any assembly with hidden nooks and crannies which might escape the rinse. That said, I've used it on rusty tinplate track, which is pretty much all nooks and crannies, not to mention nice absorbent paper insulators, and not yet had any problems. If there are any concerns, dunking the rinsed parts in a bicarb of soda solution should neutralise any remaining acid, before a final rinse. 

 

I also suspect that, in theory, the vinegar might take off some of the tin plating, but I haven't had that happen either. Whilst annoying, it wouldn't be a disaster on a surface to be painted. 

 

The best thing about the vinegar bath is that, being a food product, it's not going to maim you if you're careless, although you will find out if you've got any previously unnoticed cuts and scrapes on your fingers. About the only friendlier method I can think of is soaking in molasses, which is reputed to work very well, but which I haven't tried personally. 

 

I've also previously experimented with rust removal by electrolysis from some grotty machine parts. It worked very well, but required more setting up than pouring some vinegar into a bucket and dropping the bits in. I did contemplate trying it on a VW Beetle chassis I had, using a (large) paddling pool, weldmesh for the sacrificial electrode and an old stick welder for juice. But that's another story. 

[009 micro modeller]

2 minutes ago, PatB said:

I guess there is. Thorough rinsing is important, preferably in hot water. I also wouldn't really want to do this to any assembly with hidden nooks and crannies which might escape the rinse. That said, I've used it on rusty tinplate track, which is pretty much all nooks and crannies, not to mention nice absorbent paper insulators, and not yet had any problems. If there are any concerns, dunking the rinsed parts in a bicarb of soda solution should neutralise any remaining acid, before a final rinse. 

 

I also suspect that, in theory, the vinegar might take off some of the tin plating, but I haven't had that happen either. Whilst annoying, it wouldn't be a disaster on a surface to be painted. 

 

The best thing about the vinegar bath is that, being a food product, it's not going to maim you if you're careless, although you will find out if you've got any previously unnoticed cuts and scrapes on your fingers. About the only friendlier method I can think of is soaking in molasses, which is reputed to work very well, but which I haven't tried personally. 

 

I've also previously experimented with rust removal by electrolysis from some grotty machine parts. It worked very well, but required more setting up than pouring some vinegar into a bucket and dropping the bits in. I did contemplate trying it on a VW Beetle chassis I had, using a (large) paddling pool, weldmesh for the sacrificial electrode and an old stick welder for juice. But that's another story. 

 

I did think about electrolysis but wasn’t sure how well it would work. I would have thought a lot of these methods might affect the tin plating but as you say it shouldn’t be that much of a problem. I tend to feel that chemical removal would be better than using any serious abrasives, which could leave scratches in the metal.

[goldfish]

I am currently trying to restore a Leeds clockwork body that had been stripped at some point and then left untreated. The resulting surface rust has proved something of a challenge, probably a much bigger challenge than the original stripping. I would strongly advise that the bare metal surface is sealed as soon as possible after stripping with a suitable primer or sealer. Remembering that tinplate can rust from the inside out, so it is worth paying as much attention to treating the inside of the body as treating the outside.

 

Your biggest problem is that tinplate is addictive, so beware.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, goldfish said:

I am currently trying to restore a Leeds clockwork body that had been stripped at some point and then left untreated. The resulting surface rust has proved something of a challenge, probably a much bigger challenge than the original stripping. I would strongly advise that the bare metal surface is sealed as soon as possible after stripping with a suitable primer or sealer. Remembering that tinplate can rust from the inside out, so it is worth paying as much attention to treating the inside of the body as treating the outside.

 

Your biggest problem is that tinplate is addictive, so beware.

 

Hopefully, if I take the planned approach of completely dismantling and restoring, I should be able to prime the inside as well while I’m at it. Although this may mean I need to spray both sides of some parts at once.

[David_Belcher]

On 19/07/2020 at 08:42, PatB said:

I guess there is. Thorough rinsing is important, preferably in hot water. I also wouldn't really want to do this to any assembly with hidden nooks and crannies which might escape the rinse. That said, I've used it on rusty tinplate track, which is pretty much all nooks and crannies, not to mention nice absorbent paper insulators, and not yet had any problems. If there are any concerns, dunking the rinsed parts in a bicarb of soda solution should neutralise any remaining acid, before a final rinse. 

 

I also suspect that, in theory, the vinegar might take off some of the tin plating, but I haven't had that happen either. Whilst annoying, it wouldn't be a disaster on a surface to be painted. 

 

The best thing about the vinegar bath is that, being a food product, it's not going to maim you if you're careless, although you will find out if you've got any previously unnoticed cuts and scrapes on your fingers. About the only friendlier method I can think of is soaking in molasses, which is reputed to work very well, but which I haven't tried personally. 

 

I've also previously experimented with rust removal by electrolysis from some grotty machine parts. It worked very well, but required more setting up than pouring some vinegar into a bucket and dropping the bits in. I did contemplate trying it on a VW Beetle chassis I had, using a (large) paddling pool, weldmesh for the sacrificial electrode and an old stick welder for juice. But that's another story. 

 

Sounds a bit leftfield, but has anyone tried fizzy cola? IIRC the phosphoric acid turns the rusted bits from iron hydroxide into insoluble ferrous phosphate, like that 'Rust Eater' stuff from car accessory shops but in weaker form.

 

David

[Il Grifone]

I tried cola once, but it left the rust and a sticky mess. I have a feeling that they've cut at least some of the phosphoric acid from the formula.

[DCB]

28 minutes ago, Il Grifone said:

I tried cola once, but it left the rust and a sticky mess. I have a feeling that they've cut at least some of the phosphoric acid from the formula.

 

I wondered why it tasted different.   The Mazak rot was not a huge problem, it was around circa  WW2 ,  The .Hornby Dublo  LMS Duchess of Atholls used to suffer badly with disintegrating driving wheels, but the later BR stuff" was pretty much immune.  The OO suffered more than the O gauge due to thinner castings.  Mazak rot then came back with a vengeance post 2000 with all sorts of China made locos succumbing  Hornby class 31 being the most notable. Some were fine some useless it was all down to (lack of) quality control.   There are a huge number of rust removing agents available, but rust always wins in the end. 

Edited July 21, 2020 by DavidCBroad
Typo 37 for 31

[roythebus]

I used to use Coca Cola for rust removal and unsticking seized piston rings on vintage vehicles. The Coke factory in Milton Keynes used spilt coke concentrate in their steam cleaner pressure washers. Peronally I'd never drink the stuff having seen what it does to metal.

[009 micro modeller]

Thank you everyone for your replies. What are your thoughts on this?

On 18/07/2020 at 17:31, 009 micro modeller said:

Obviously some people use powder coating to get a more authentic finish, but elsewhere I’ve also seen suggestions to bake the paint on even if using normal enamels.

 

[Nearholmer]

Were original tinplate models/toys were powder coated? Most that I've seen are either enamel painted (I think Hornby spray-painted much of theirs) or printed by lithography.

 

Baking enamel paint seems popular, and from what I've heard it works in terms of creating a very durable finish, although I do wonder about it if the underlying primer is a modern paint.

 

Why not experiment on some scrap material?

 

But, modern "car paints" on a properly de-greased substrate are very solid without baking. I've painted a few steel or tin things and never had any trouble with the durability of the paint.

 

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Il Grifone]

I've not had problems with 'Atholl' wheels, though the only horseshoe one I have had scale wheels fitted.

They could easily have had stocks of pre-war wheels to use up however. They (unlike the prototypes) are the same as the A4.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Were original tinplate models/toys were powder coated? Most that I've seen are either enamel painted (I think Hornby spray-painted much of theirs) or printed by lithography.

 

Baking enamel paint seems popular, and from what I've heard it works in terms of creating a very durable finish, although I do wonder about it if the underlying primer is a modern paint.

 

Why not experiment on some scrap material?

 

But, modern "car paints" on a properly de-greased substrate are very solid without baking. I've painted a few steel or tin things and never had any trouble with the durability of the paint.

 

 

 

I think some were powder-coated, and this and baked conventional enamel (over primer) seem to be suggested as a way of mimicking/replicating the durable, high gloss factory finish as originally applied. On the other hand some of the sources I’ve read are American and their manufacturers may have done things differently originally. I’m just not absolutely clear about why baking on conventional enamel would be better than just letting it dry naturally, and the potential need to make or buy an ‘oven’ (preferably not one also used for food) to do this might be a bit of a pain.

 

At the moment I think my preferred technique would be etch primer, gloss enamel (probably Halfords car paint - although presumably their acrylic car paint gives a slightly different finish) sprayed as several thin coats, and then possibly gloss varnish. Not absolutely sure about the varnish but it would seem to be a way of making the finish even more glossy, and I usually varnish most enamel-painted stuff on models to give the paint some extra protection.

Edited July 23, 2020 by 009 micro modeller

[Nearholmer]

I think it depends upon what you are trying to reproduce or at least emulate.

 

Really high gloss isn’t something I’d associate with Hornby tinplate, although I think that pre-war might have been glossier than post war.

 

Here are relevant words from The Graebe’s ‘bible’, and a picture I just took of a box-fresh 1940s or early 1950s painted wagon.

 

 

 

 

[009 micro modeller]

2 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I think it depends upon what you are trying to reproduce or at least emulate.

 

Really high gloss isn’t something I’d associate with Hornby tinplate, although I think that pre-war might have been glossier than post war.

 

Here are relevant words from The Graebe’s ‘bible’, and a picture I just took of a box-fresh 1940s or early 1950s painted wagon.

 

 

 

 

 

That has a relatively dull, almost satin (but not matt) finish, or looks that way from the photo. It’s interesting that it says ‘enamelling followed pressing and the preliminary assembly work’ as most of the websites I’ve read about restoring tinplate suggest taking apart, repainting and then reassembling to mimic the original finish.

[Nearholmer]

Yes, the white one is satin.

 

This one is a good deal shinier, same sort of date, but I’m not entirely sure it hasn’t been varnished by a previous owner, because I’ve not got any other postwar ones quite this shiny.

 

 

[009 micro modeller]

I wonder whether the locos might have been given a slightly shinier finish though...

[Nearholmer]

Same date, a bit of wear and tear, but underneath is virgin, and again not super-glossy.

[Nearholmer]

From what I can work out, without pristine pre-war ones to hand, the pre-war wagons tended to be on the glossier end of things.

 

Depending upon date and type, the locos could be on the glossier end of what I’ve shown, or actually matt varnished at the factory, so if you intend a pin-accurate resto you’d need to research the detail.

 

One thing I would say is that even I, not a true Hornby aficionado, can spot a lot of restored items at a glance, even in an eBay listing, because they are too glossy.

[009 micro modeller]

1 minute ago, Nearholmer said:

From what I can work out, without pristine pre-war ones to hand, the pre-war wagons tended to be on the glossier end of things.

 

Depending upon date and type, the locos could be on the glossier end of what I’ve shown, or actually matt varnished at the factory, so if you intend a pin-accurate resto you’d need to research the detail.

 

One thing I would say is that even I, not a true Hornby aficionado, can spot a lot of restored items at a glance, even in an eBay listing, because they are too glossy.

 

I’m not aiming for a completely authentic finish, just to avoid it looking too dull or poorly finished. These appear to be fairly shiny: http://www.binnsroad.co.uk/railways/hornbyuk/locos/post101/index.html