Restoring and repainting rusty tinplate

[Nearholmer]

After painting and transferring:

 

 

 

Ive got a pre-war brake van here that shows this nicely. The underside is flat grey, where no varnish has got, but the roof and sides are glossy, but with a very pale yellow tinge, and there is even a run in the varnish!

[009 micro modeller]

47 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

After painting and transferring:

 

 

 

Ive got a pre-war brake van here that shows this nicely. The underside is flat grey, where no varnish has got, but the roof and sides are glossy, but with a very pale yellow tinge, and there is even a run in the varnish!

 

Does this mean that even locos would be better off with a satin/matt paint finish, followed by varnishing?

Edited July 23, 2020 by 009 micro modeller

[Nearholmer]

There are deep experts on all this in the HRCA, so if you want to get really far into it, you’d need to sign-up.

You’re next move will be transfers, and that may not be straightforward either, because the gentleman who was the key supplier passed away. A new owner was in process of re-starting the business some months ago, but I haven’t heard news of products becoming available again yet (I may be “behind the curve“ though).

[Silverfox17]

9 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

There are deep experts on all this in the HRCA, so if you want to get really far into it, you’d need to sign-up.

You’re next move will be transfers, and that may not be straightforward either, because the gentleman who was the key supplier passed away. A new owner was in process of re-starting the business some months ago, but I haven’t heard news of products becoming available again yet (I may be “behind the curve“ though).

Who was the key supplier of the transfers? I only knew of Dennis Williams as the main one and no idea if he is still doing it but I know Tony Cooper passed away 18 months ago and his son was continuing with part of the business.  I don't know if Tony supplied transfers as his "new" Dublo locos were painted by someone else, Mick Turner, who used to supply transfers as well. As far as I know Mick got them off Dennis as all three used to get different Dublo items and pass on to each other.  Both Tony and Dennis were nice chaps, never met Mick, but since being out of Dublo for a few years it has been a while since I had dealings with either. 

 

Garry 

Edited July 24, 2020 by Silverfox17

[Nearholmer]

For 0 gauge, as opposed to Dublo, Rob Horton of Wessex Transfers. His business is now with Stephen Johnson Models.

[Silverfox17]

Okay thanks, I was never involved in the Hornby 0 gauge so no idea of anyone in that respect. 

 

Garry 

[Il Grifone]

Supplies were extremely hard to obtain post-war*, so the finish is likely to be variable as they would have used want they could get. From what I remember (a long time ago!) my Hornby was satin finish.

(All gone to the great marshalling yards in the sky. It disappeared one day. My parents must have thrown it out - I have to admit it didn't receive the care it deserved. My only excuse is extreme youth!)

 

* A lot of what was available was ear-marked for export.

[Nearholmer]

According to The Graebes, the change to Matt varnish for locos was made in 1939, and very definitely the typical finish for a postwar 501 in the common LMS and LNER liveries is Matt. I’m less sure about a 101 tank in those liveries, or about anything else.

[meil]

There are these:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-O-Gauge-Trade-Marks-Wagons-etc-4-To-Choose-From-Waterslide-Transfer/152453868199?var=451768881615&hash=item237ef56aa7:g:t-gAAOSw44BYjSRR

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-O-Gauge-Loco-2115-No-1-LMS-Screen-Printed-Waterslide-Decal/153364652214?hash=item23b53ee0b6:g:B60AAOSwsaVcWFTo

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

According to The Graebes, the change to Matt varnish for locos was made in 1939, and very definitely the typical finish for a postwar 501 in the common LMS and LNER liveries is Matt. I’m less sure about a 101 tank in those liveries, or about anything else.

 

The pictures I’ve seen of postwar 101 locos (which is what mine is) in original or correctly restored condition don’t look that shiny, but they’re definitely more glossy than the typical matt finish I would use on modern stuff (where I would be aiming to make it less shiny), in the sense that the finish seems to reflect the light.

[Nearholmer]

Typical postwar 501, photo stolen from eBay, and it shows the matt-ness quite well.

 

I’ve asked a pal to take a picture of his VGC 1948 101 tank in LNER livery - my recollection is that it is shinier than this.

 

 

Edited July 24, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

One careful owner from new, who tells me that it has lost a bit of gloss over that time, but not a great deal.

 

To me, it is shinier than the Matt 501, but by no means high-gloss.

 

Question: were these tin-printed, rather than painted??

 

 

Edited July 24, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

Yes, I think the 101 tanks were tin-printed, if my deciphering of the Graebes is correct. They say that  "the No.101 locomotives were equivalent to the former M3 clockwork locomotives; the same tinprinting was used .........." (Revised Edition pp71).

 

That neatly explains their relative shininess. Except that The Graebes also say that some tinprinted 101 tanks were matt over-varnished, in the same way that the enamel-painted 501 locos were, and show photos of the same.

 

I did warn you that this could get down to a lot of detail of exact dates etc.!

 

Has the loco arrived yet? Can you tell whether it was matt varnished originally, or not?

 

 

[Mark Carne]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Yes, I think the 101 tanks were tin-printed, if my deciphering of the Graebes is correct. They say that  "the No.101 locomotives were equivalent to the former M3 clockwork locomotives; the same tinprinting was used .........." (Revised Edition pp71).

 

That neatly explains their relative shininess. Except that The Graebes also say that some tinprinted 101 tanks were matt over-varnished, in the same way that the enamel-painted 501 locos were, and show photos of the same.

 

I did warn you that this could get down to a lot of detail of exact dates etc.!

 

Has the loco arrived yet? Can you tell whether it was matt varnished originally, or not?

 

 

Yes, the 101s were tinprinted, including the running plate and cylinders. The earliest 101s were the most matt finished, and it was gradually dropped, so by the time of the LNER 101 you show, circa 1951-53, they were just the plain tinprinting, without any varnishing. The very first batch used printings identical to the pre war M3 tank locos, so the printed sheets they were stamped from must have been left over stock.

 

Mark

[PatB]

Going back to the reasons for oven baking enamel. I suspect that at least part of the reason is less for long term durability (although I daresay it helps) but for speeding curing in the short term. My own experience suggests that anything described as "enamel" takes weeks, or even months, to reach full cure left to its own devices at ambient temperature. It might reach touch-dry in a fairly short space of time, but will remain soft. This isn't necessarily a problem if you can leave the painted piece for long enough, but, if you need to undertake further manufacturing operations, pack the product in contact with its packaging, sell it to the general public etc. it's a major obstacle. The obvious answer is to stick it in an oven for a while, to get to the point where it's cured sufficiently to handle it without leaving scrapes and gouges in the nice new paint.

[TerryD1471]

On 22/07/2020 at 00:49, roythebus said:

I used to use Coca Cola for rust removal and unsticking seized piston rings on vintage vehicles. The Coke factory in Milton Keynes used spilt coke concentrate in their steam cleaner pressure washers. Peronally I'd never drink the stuff having seen what it does to metal.

I understand that Coca Cola contains a useful amount of ortho phosphoric acid. I also believe that the product Jenolite consists largely of this H3PO4 and I am about to start using a 33% mix of this acid on my ancient (surface) rusty Triumph sports car, so am optimistic about the results.

[Il Grifone]

My first Hornby 101 was semi-matt (LMS crimson - Xmas 1949) and so is the GWR one I acquired not so long ago. I'm not sure of the date of the latter - she is no. 6600 and lettered 'GREAT WESTERN'.

 

Jenolite is nasty stuff! Take care!

Edited July 28, 2020 by Il Grifone

[009 micro modeller]

17 minutes ago, Il Grifone said:

My first Hornby 101 was semi-matt (LMS crimson - Xmas 1949) and so is the GWR one I acquired not so long ago. I'm not sure of the date of the latter - she is no. 6600 and lettered 'GREAT WESTERN'.

 

Jenolite is nasty stuff! Take care!

 

I was actually thinking of trying the white vinegar idea (you can get ‘cleaning vinegar’ in big containers) but slightly worried about the potential for collateral damage with this.

[PatB]

24 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

I was actually thinking of trying the white vinegar idea (you can get ‘cleaning vinegar’ in big containers) but slightly worried about the potential for collateral damage with this.

If it provides any further reassurance, I just fished the bits of a Marx caboose out of the bath yesterday, after a ~3 week soak, and they were perfect. All old paint gone, beautifully shiny tinplate, no remaining rust, and even the bit of 70+ year old plastic glazing that accidentally went in is just wonderfully clean and clear. I should point out that it didn't need 3 weeks, but opportunities have been minimal of late. Couple of coats of etch primer on all of it, and some satin black on the chassis bits and it's all looking good. Just need to find an equivalent of Reading Caboose Red at the local car shop to do the bodywork, then I need to teach myself to make decals in order to put the details on. 

[009 micro modeller]

52 minutes ago, PatB said:

If it provides any further reassurance, I just fished the bits of a Marx caboose out of the bath yesterday, after a ~3 week soak, and they were perfect. All old paint gone, beautifully shiny tinplate, no remaining rust, and even the bit of 70+ year old plastic glazing that accidentally went in is just wonderfully clean and clear. I should point out that it didn't need 3 weeks, but opportunities have been minimal of late. Couple of coats of etch primer on all of it, and some satin black on the chassis bits and it's all looking good. Just need to find an equivalent of Reading Caboose Red at the local car shop to do the bodywork, then I need to teach myself to make decals in order to put the details on. 

 

That all sounds good. Do you find that it takes the etch primer well or do you need to slightly “key” the surface beforehand? I have some leftover Railmatch primer already but I can get something different if it isn’t suitable.

Edited July 28, 2020 by 009 micro modeller

[PatB]

4 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

That all sounds good. Do you find that it takes the etch primer well or do you need to slightly “key” the surface beforehand? I have some leftover Railmatch primer already but I can get something different if it isn’t suitable.

I've been blasting on the primer immediately after switching off the hairdryer I've been using to dry the rinse water. It seems to quite like being applied to the still warm metal. I've also been using the hairdryer to speed the paint drying, as it's a bit humid here in winter, which makes cure take ages and often results in a blotchy finish. With the added heat I can get two coats of primer and two of black on inside an hour, working in stolen moments between other tasks in the workshop.

 

Adhesion appears good, although I haven't really tested it. I work on the basis that etch primer provides its own key. If I wasn't using an etch primer I'd probably give everything a wipe with 1200 grit, but I'm lazy and prefer to rely on the chemicals to do the work. I'm also not after a "collector" finish, and so can get away with paints off the shelf at Repco, which is convenient, rather than needing a trip to a model shop, which is not. Not that any localish model shops stock specific rail colours anyway, so I'd still have to make a judgement on the required colour anyway. The etch primer I've been using is quite a dark grey. Fine under black, but I'd need to put a barrier coat of something lighter between it and a pale topcoat without much opacity. 

[Metropolitan H]

On 24/07/2020 at 17:11, Mark Carne said:

Yes, the 101s were tinprinted, including the running plate and cylinders. The earliest 101s were the most matt finished, and it was gradually dropped, so by the time of the LNER 101 you show, circa 1951-53, they were just the plain tinprinting, without any varnishing. The very first batch used printings identical to the pre war M3 tank locos, so the printed sheets they were stamped from must have been left over stock.

 

Mark

Yes, the quoted dates are about right - the set was bought new for me by Grandmother Holmes circa 1954 for use in their GNR "Barracks" house at New England when youngest Uncle got upset about her letting me play with what were "His" trains - from pre-war days. The set then resided, little used, at P'boro till I went to visit the other Uncle and Aunt (brother and sister) who still lived in the house in 1967 - when it was reclaimed and taken home to Bracknell on the carrying rack of my first BSA D10 Bantam (I've got another one nowadays). Ever since it (the Hornby set - the Bantam is also treasured, but no longer ridden as I'm getting on a bit now - last bithday ended in another "0") has been treasured and only run on "High days and Holidays" - Still runs very well, better than I do!

 

Regards

Chris H

Edited August 3, 2020 by Metropolitan H

[009 micro modeller]

I’ve now received the loco and had a go at treating the dome and a couple of other small pieces as a test. They have been soaked in cider vinegar for a few days (I will order the cheaper bulk white vinegar to do the other components if successful), scrubbed with an old toothbrush and then lightly painted with white spirit (to clean off remaining paint/loose rust). This is the result - mostly bare metal with a bit of black speckling.

 

 

Is this as good as I’m likely to get it or should I try a different approach?

[Bassettblowke]

I am surprised to see Coke recommended for anything other than drinking, as for it being a danger to health well it probably is if consumed by the barrel load. Surely we should be exercising some common sense here, the food standards agency exists for a reason.

The same goes for rust removers, drain cleaners, oven cleaners, if you follow the instructions and refrain from gargling with it you won’t go awry. Living as we do in a heavily regulated consumer society we can hopefully rest assured that genuine products have been thoroughly tested and comply with current legislation.

Now there’s a well known saying that you can’t legislate for idiots and there in lies the danger, follow the instructions and you won’t go wrong, every house is stuffed with products that have the potential to be dangerous, used correctly they will perform safely and as expected. 

[Silverfox17]

25 minutes ago, Bassettblowke said:

every house is stuffed with products that have the potential to be dangerous, used correctly they will perform safely and as expected. 

Not quite these days, H and S made a lot of products change their "ingredients" and therefore do not work as they should. Years ago Nitromors would strip anything now it wont touch a HD loco body. Some people used an oven cleaner as a stripper but then it had to change and no longer works.  As for Coke that was recomended (not by Coke obviously) as a metal cleaner in the late 60's when I started work, some even used it as a flux for soldering stainless steel as it contained phosphoric acid. Possibly used even earlier but I was at school then. 

 

Garry