Dungrange Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 I'm building what will be a continuous run layout in my attic. Laser cut baseboard kits from Tim Horn have already been assembled. These will set on top of a wooden frame made from 44 mm by 18 mm softwood, which I have already cut to size along with sections of skirting board also cut to size. The skirting board is required because there is framing around a couple of access hatches and the layout will sit in front of these, so the skirting board means that I can get a straight line to affix the frame to. My first task is to affix the skirting board to the wall, which is plasterboard attached to the timber webs of the roof trusses. Once the skirting board is in place, I then intend to screw the softwood frame to the skirting board, which will give me the base on which to lay the baseboards. I will require to construct a few upright 'legs' to support the front edge, for which I plan to use timber that is about 40 mm square section. However, I need to buy some rawl plugs and screws to affix the skirting board to the wall and realise that there is rather a large range of fixings available. I'm therefore wondering if anyone can point me in the direction of the type / diameter rawl plug and size of screw that I should be using to support the weight of a typical layout? Given the screws will ultimately end in timber (ie the webs of the roof trusses), do I actually need rawl plugs, or would I be better just using really long wood screws - something like https://www.screwfix.com/p/turbogold-pz-double-countersunk-multipurpose-screws-5-x-60mm-100-pack/14657? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted July 19, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 19, 2020 No need for rawl plugs into wood at all. As for what size screws, it is really hard to answer, considerations are, for example: How many places are you screwing? What is the wood you are screwing into? What is the weight of your boards? What additional weight will you want it to take? For example, are you going to climb on it? If your timber is 40mm square, 60mm is not long enough in my opinion, I would look at the width of the wood that I am screwing into and look at what the combined depth would be an do for something less than that. Also consider if you can actually use bolts if you can get to the back of the join with a nice large washer either side. I always use twin thread screws - much better to use in my experience. Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
loickebros Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 Personally I would not use screws but glue them with no nails instead Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcm@gwr Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 I certainly wouldn't use any kind of adhesive. Firstly, adhesives (of any kind) could fail, No-nails can become brittle over time, and then fail if subject to a sharp knock. Whereas a screw, at worst, can become loose. But on the plus side, a screw can be undone if needed (access, maintenance, or even change of plan!) 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcm@gwr Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 Further to my last post, screw sizes. The item to be fixed should have a hole drilled through it, and countersunk if necessary, to stop the wood splitting. Then, depending on the tools you are using*, you might need a small pilot hole drilled into the item you are fixing to. *if you are using a cordless drill/driver, and quality screws, you could drive the screw straight in without a pilot hole. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Half-full Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 7 hours ago, Dungrange said: I'm building what will be a continuous run layout in my attic. Laser cut baseboard kits from Tim Horn have already been assembled. These will set on top of a wooden frame made from 44 mm by 18 mm softwood, which I have already cut to size along with sections of skirting board also cut to size. The skirting board is required because there is framing around a couple of access hatches and the layout will sit in front of these, so the skirting board means that I can get a straight line to affix the frame to. My first task is to affix the skirting board to the wall, which is plasterboard attached to the timber webs of the roof trusses. Once the skirting board is in place, I then intend to screw the softwood frame to the skirting board, which will give me the base on which to lay the baseboards. I will require to construct a few upright 'legs' to support the front edge, for which I plan to use timber that is about 40 mm square section. However, I need to buy some rawl plugs and screws to affix the skirting board to the wall and realise that there is rather a large range of fixings available. I'm therefore wondering if anyone can point me in the direction of the type / diameter rawl plug and size of screw that I should be using to support the weight of a typical layout? Given the screws will ultimately end in timber (ie the webs of the roof trusses), do I actually need rawl plugs, or would I be better just using really long wood screws - something like https://www.screwfix.com/p/turbogold-pz-double-countersunk-multipurpose-screws-5-x-60mm-100-pack/14657? These screws are fantastic. I've was recommended them by a joiner years ago to stop squeaky floorboards, have since used them for baseboard framing, generally joinery and putting up drywall. A small pilot hole will stop any chance of the softwood splitting, although I've rarely experienced that when I've just screwed them straight in to the wood. I've re-used the screws a lot of time and ever had a head strip. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcm@gwr Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 1 minute ago, Half-full said: These screws are fantastic. I've was recommended them by a joiner years ago to stop squeaky floorboards, have since used them for baseboard framing, generally joinery and putting up drywall. A small pilot hole will stop any chance of the softwood splitting, although I've rarely experienced that when I've just screwed them straight in to the wood. I've re-used the screws a lot of time and ever had a head strip. If that was the correct link, then you shouldn't be using them for anything other than putting up plasterboard (they are even called dry-wall screws!), the reason is that the heads are shaped so that they don't break through the outer paper covering, but they don't have the strength to grip wood correctly, you are likely to snap the heads off. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyRule1 Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 having just had all the skirting boards replaced in our house the builders just used glue (not sure what make but "gripfill" type} and a nail gun. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Half-full Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 10 minutes ago, jcm@gwr said: If that was the correct link, then you shouldn't be using them for anything other than putting up plasterboard (they are even called dry-wall screws!), the reason is that the heads are shaped so that they don't break through the outer paper covering, but they don't have the strength to grip wood correctly, you are likely to snap the heads off. Only speaking of my experience, never had any problems with heads breaking off, working loose or failing. They have plenty of strength, more than enough for any model railway application and more than enough for many joinery jobs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcm@gwr Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 1 minute ago, MyRule1 said: having just had all the skirting boards replaced in our house the builders just used glue (not sure what make but "gripfill" type} and a nail gun. That's an approved method of fixing skirting, I've done it myself, but it's not suitable for fixing anything that needs more stability, like a baseboard, or legs for the layout 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dungrange Posted July 19, 2020 Author Share Posted July 19, 2020 6 minutes ago, loickebros said: Personally I would not use screws but glue them with no nails instead I know that glue can be strong, but I don't want the weight of the layout to ultimately pull the support frame off the wall, which is what I envisage happening if I just glue the skirting board to the wall. However, I'll probably glue as well as screw. 19 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said: What is the weight of your boards? What additional weight will you want it to take? For example, are you going to climb on it? I'm not sure what weight my baseboards are, but they are made from 6 mm birch ply with 9 mm tops and are intended to be light enough to transport to an exhibition. I definitely don't intend climbing on the boards, but I know from club layouts that some people have a tendency to lean on the edges of the fiddle yard, especially when reaching to the trains at the rear. Then there will be the weight of twelve 00 trains (which will be the number of loops in the fiddle yard). 19 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said: No need for rawl plugs into wood at all. As for what size screws, it is really hard to answer, considerations are, for example: How many places are you screwing? What is the wood you are screwing into? I only realised that I may not need rawl plugs when I read through the descriptions of those that were suitable for brick, concrete, plasterboard etc, with no mention of timber. The timber that I'd be screwing into would be the roof trusses, which seems to be approximately 110 mm x 50 mm (probably 4 1/2" by 2" as the house was built in the 1960's) and these are at approximately 18" centres, so I was assuming a screw every 18". 1 hour ago, Roy Langridge said: If your timber is 40 mm square, 60 mm is not long enough in my opinion, I would look at the width of the wood that I am screwing into and look at what the combined depth would be an do for something less than that. Also consider if you can actually use bolts if you can get to the back of the join with a nice large washer either side. Whilst I could get access to use bolts, I don't have a drill that would be long enough to install bolts (ie I would need a drill bit that is at least 150 mm long). I was assuming that the screw would pass through the skirting board (13 mm) and the plasterboard, which may actually be some sort of fibreboard (say 12 mm), which means that a 60 mm screw would travel around 35 mm into the roof truss. I was then assuming that I'd screw the 44 mm x 18 mm timber to the skirting board, which means that when screwing that to the skirting board, the screw would pass through 18 mm of timber, 13 mm of skirting board and then the plasterboard / fibreboard (12 mm). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dungrange Posted July 19, 2020 Author Share Posted July 19, 2020 17 minutes ago, MyRule1 said: having just had all the skirting boards replaced in our house the builders just used glue (not sure what make but "gripfill" type} and a nail gun. That's how I've fixed skirting boards in the past where they've been largely decorative at floor level. However, in this instance, I'm using a timber skirting board as a baton about 40" off the floor , which I then want to screw a frame to that will ultimately support my baseboards. Whilst the baseboards will all be bolted together (which will provide some strength), I don't want the frame under them collapsing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroborus Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 No nails type glue is strong, the trouble is that 'it' often fails by it splitting apart the thing it's glued to. So for wood, a thin veneer of wood splints away. It matters not, the joint has failed. When fixing the skirting board to the plasterboard wall, it'll be worth using a stud detector to find where the plasterboard is supported. Screw your skirting board at this point, straight into the supporting timber behind the plasterboard. 80mm should be ok. From what you've written, it seems to me that these points will be supporting the weight of you layout in time, so use a suitably thick screw with a pilot hole to stop splits. Depending on the spacing of the studs, you may have enough retention with this and not need to consider plasterboard fixings Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dungrange Posted July 19, 2020 Author Share Posted July 19, 2020 7 hours ago, Roy Langridge said: I always use twin thread screws - much better to use in my experience. 2 hours ago, Ouroborus said: Screw your skirting board at this point, straight into the supporting timber behind the plasterboard. 80mm should be ok. Screwfix don't appear to do twin thread screws other than drywall fixings, but it looks as though my reasonably local Toolstation have suitable screws. I think a #10 screw has a diameter of about 4.8 mm, so these 75 mm versions (https://www.toolstation.com/twinthread-countersunk-pozi-screw/p57364) will presumably do. Having thought about this a bit more, it may be better to use two of these per stud: one towards the top of the skirting board and the other towards the bottom. Then once I've glued the softwood 44 x 18 timber strips to the centre of the skirting board, I should then be able to put a larger 90 mm #12 (which I think has a diameter of 5.5 mm) (https://www.toolstation.com/twinthread-countersunk-pozi-screw/p13096) through the whole lot. In the case of both screws, the last 50 mm should end up in the roof truss, which is presumably what I am trying to achieve. Now I just need to see what else I may need from Toolstation before placing an order. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted July 20, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 20, 2020 A couple of observations. Don't buy cheap Chinese bzp screws, a recipe for disaster. With reference to the bugle headed screws, the head only has any relevance when the piece of wood or whatever is being fixed has a bigger hole in it than the screw. If you pilot both bits of wood with a slightly smaller hole than the screw then the heads only relevance to the operation is to give the wherewithal to drive the screw in, once screwed up tight, the head is superfluous. Mike. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroborus Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 21 hours ago, Dungrange said: . Having thought about this a bit more, it may be better to use two of these per stud: one towards the top of the skirting board and the other towards the bottom. No problem, but if you're going to do this, just be wary about splitting the skirting. A decent pilot should lessen the risk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dungrange Posted July 20, 2020 Author Share Posted July 20, 2020 15 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said: Don't buy cheap Chinese bzp screws, a recipe for disaster. Is that a warning about zinc plated screws in general or just the ones bought from places like Alibaba? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Richard_A Posted July 21, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 21, 2020 I'm sure Chris p bacon will be along to give some better advice, a carpenter I worked with used to work on the principal of use the biggest fixing you can when holding load bearing item up, and use single thread with a cutting point on them which reduces the risk of wood splitting. Spax have a great range of screws they're not cheap but I've never had a head strip and they are made from a better grade of metal than the cheaper makes. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted July 21, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 21, 2020 6 hours ago, Dungrange said: Is that a warning about zinc plated screws in general or just the ones bought from places like Alibaba? Even "branded" boxes of screws from trade outlets I have bought have been of crap quality, best avoided altogether IMHO. As mentioned above Spax or similar, although more expensive as the type to go for. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dungrange Posted July 21, 2020 Author Share Posted July 21, 2020 I know nothing about screw brands, so have no idea what brands are good and which are bad. I tend just to look at the star rating on the reviews from trade outlets. I'm assuming that these (https://www.toolstation.com/spax-wirox-t-star-plus-screw/p19923) would be a better bet then for the screws that will go into the trusses. They may be a bit more expensive, but I'll probably only need one pack, so it's not something I need to try and economise on. I just need to check that I have a TX bit - all the screws that I've used in the past have been flat, Philips or Pozidrive types. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcm@gwr Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 I think you are going seriously OTT with those, you are securing a layout, not building a staircase! Ordinary zinc/yellow passivated, Pozi-drive screws will be adequate. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted July 21, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 21, 2020 4 hours ago, rka said: I'm sure Chris p bacon will be along to give some better advice, Get a nail gun... Jeff and Mike have already given you the best advice, get some decent screws (but no need to go OTT) Find the studs in the stud wall and fix the skirting with 60+mm screws (20mm in the skirting, 15mm for the plasterboard and 25+mm for the stud) You can then fix through the skirting into the stud to fix the uprights for your support. Don't think of using glue/no nails, it's fine for decorative skirting but not if used for support. One thing I would get is a stud/electrical detector, if you're in an 'Attic room' cables don't always follow the same route as in ground and first floor rooms (vertically above/below switches and sockets) so before punching large screws through blind walls I'd check first. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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