CIE Bulleid “Tin Vans” brass kits

[jhb171achil]

Hi folks

 

I'm discussing with a manufacturer a small order of brass kits for the luggage and heating van alternatives of the above. I need about 3 or 4.

 

They have to be made in lots of 4, and would be only supplied as kits. 
 

For any CIE passenger scene of the 1955-75 period, these vans are essential. 
 

Would anyone else be interested in one or two, to make a minimum order of maybe 8 of each type viable?

[Baldwin30762]

Do you have some idea of the cost for thses kits? I might be interested in one of each type to start with.

 

Colin R

[decauville1126]

I  might well be interested dependant of course on cost.  Thanks.

[Eoin Murray]

Hi JB

 

I would be interested in a few kits

 

Eoin

[Eoin Murray]

Hi JB

 

Are these the JM Design Kits, as he has posted on IRM forum that he will be proceeding in doing a second run?

 

Eoin

[jhb171achil]

On 19/07/2020 at 20:13, Baldwin30762 said:

Do you have some idea of the cost for thses kits? I might be interested in one of each type to start with.

 

Colin R

My understanding is that they’re NZ$ 150 each, which is about €79. However, customs duties increase the cost. I was initially thinking of 4 of each (luggage van and genny) for myself & a friend. This seems - if my sums are right and I have not misunderstood something - to work out at €115 a touch - including the customs cost. If there was some way of getting round that, it’s about €80 each, I think.

 

While pricey, it is quite simply essential to have these to accurately portray CIE in the 1955-72 period.

[jhb171achil]

21 hours ago, Eoin Murray said:

Hi JB

 

Are these the JM Design Kits, as he has posted on IRM forum that he will be proceeding in doing a second run?

 

Eoin

Yes. So he’s posted that up - good - he had told me he would....

 

If any financial advantage can be had, I’m more than happy to have the kit posted to me and then I would send them on to people here. Depends on the customs charge issues. 

[jhb171achil]

Well so far I’m up to four of each; these 8 for myself & a friend. 
 

If anyone wants to commit to more then I can tell John of a total number. If his posting then separately doesn’t cost any more, or if there’s no customs advantage, then individual ordering is as good as any.

 

John advises me that the minimum is four each. Well, I’ve covered that. So, for maximum price efficiency any further ones would best be ordered in fours.

[NoelG]

I'd be interested, but being brass I may have to arm twist Ireland's resident brass master Eoin to build it for me as a commission. I'm just not tooled up nor experienced enough to do a brass coach kit properly.

Edited July 30, 2020 by NoelG

[Mike 84C]

HI John, I would have one definaetly .

[Robert Shrives]

I think I am right in saying one of these was a mess coach on the Weedkiller train for a long while ?  If Yes count me in for one. 

 

Robert  

[John M]

To provide clarification I am planning to update the Heating & Luggage and Luggage Van kits with an additional set of sides to allow a different variation of the model to be assembled in a similar manner to the Post Office/"Heuston Van" Kit.

 

The kits are etched brass with whitemetal and resin detail castings and include OO Gauge NMRA RP110 wheels on 28mm pin point axles to simplify conversion to 21mm Gauge.

 

Heating & Luggage

Luggage

Post Office Van.

 

At this stage the estimate price of the kits is $150 excluding local sales/purchase tax. 

 

The Post Office Van was designed to be assembled in its original form or in their rebuilt for as P.W. Tool/Riding Vans which were used with Weedkiller & track re-laying trains in the 80s & 90s one of these vans survived as the "Heuston Tool Van" and now resides at Downpatrick.  The main difference between the Post Office and PW version of the van are re-located doorways and blanked off gangway connections.

 

Heating & Luggage Variations.

 

The kit includes alternate sides to assemble the model as a 3101-3124 series van or as 3134 with a number of boiler room and luggage compartment windows replaced by plain panels.

1. 3101-3124 As built 1955 with bottom edge of outward opening doors flush with bottom edge of floor and sides.

2. 3101-3124 With modified outward opening doors late 1950s onwards. I have incorporated a half-etched line on the inside edge of the doors, to allow the bottom edge to be neatly snapped off for this modification.

3. 3134 with blanked off boiler & luggage compartment doors. I don't know if 3134 was built in this form or the blanked off windows were a modification as 3134 appears to be from a later series of vans.

The final (1959-60?) batch of Tin Vans" were built with recessed inward opening doors, but have the same window and vent details as the original 1955 vans.

 

Luggage Van Variations.

The kit includes alternate sides to assemble the vans in their original form or as 2749 with a number of windows replaced by plain panels.

The replacement of glazed with plain panels appear to have been ad-hoc repairs to keep the vans in service. There is a photo of one van (2727) single plain panel.

The 4w Luggage Vans were withdrawn from service in the early 70s following the introduction of the BR Vans & the conversion of older coaches into Vans (BSSGV & Parcel/luggage)

A small no of 4w Luggage Vans were retained for Connolly-Dunlaoire Pier Mail and Parcel trains, these vans were restricted to 35mph lost their gangways and were re-painted in all over "Golden Brown" similar to the contemporary Dublin City bus scheme. 

Some redundant Luggage Vans had a final main line fling, rebuilt into two rakes of "coaches" for the First Great Train Robbery movie with main line steam running behind 184 & 186 on the Mullingar-Athlone Line.

 

[Irish Padre]

On 22/07/2020 at 23:02, NoelG said:

I'd be interested, but being brass I may have to arm twist Ireland's resident brass master Eoin to build it for me as a commission. I'm just not tooled up nor experienced enjoy to do a brass coach kit properly.

Noel - it’s easier than you think. Far easier than glueing plastic, once you master the basic techniques. This is what I managed to do with no prior experience - am sure you’d do better ! 

[Barrington]

I would be interested in 2 luggage van kits, 2 heating & luggage van kits and 1 post office van kit. Any idea when these will be released as lots of Irish railway models due to be released between now and the end of the year.

[jhb171achil]

20 hours ago, Barrington said:

I would be interested in 2 luggage van kits, 2 heating & luggage van kits and 1 post office van kit. Any idea when these will be released as lots of Irish railway models due to be released between now and the end of the year.

 

I understand that John is working on this project at the moment - but the replies above clearly indicate a market for a good dozen or more of each.

 

Recent interest (and very welcome it is too) in the mid 1950s to 1970 period, especially with the recent release of the 121 in 1960s grey and yellow livery, will inevitably increase interest in these, as it is simply not possible to do a realistic 1960s CIE passenger train without them. They're as essential as the locomotive itself on a passenger train.

 

I have four right now - two of the above type from the previous release of them, and two Silverfox. All are black'n'tan, but when built the earlier ones were silver, as John has illustrated above. This did not wear well as we know, and with steam still about how could it! Thus, the later ones went into traffic in green and were never silver, while many of the silver ones were repainted green.

 

By the mid 1960s you've all three. Some are still in extremely dirty silver (clean simply would not look realistic!), while others are green, and examples of both are being painted black'n'tan. Thus, I will get any new ones in green or silver, and weather them within an inch of their lives.

 

Many trains had a heating van AND a luggage van. It is the LVs which were first nicknamed "Tin vans" due to their colour (or lack of it) and their truly awful riding qualities. The heating vans were known to many railwaymen as the "hot water bottles". Both could carry the guard and be used as a passenger brake van, and both were.

 

Even in later steam days, the LVs in particular were odd-looking appendages to a branch train of an elderly green wooden non-corridor coach and a steam engine. "Tin vans" traversed the "Derry Road" too, carrying parcels and newspapers, and made it regularly to Portadown and Belfast too. Following closure of the "Derry Road", while I have no actual evidence of it (can anyone help?) I would not be surprised to learn that they got into Waterside via the NCC.

[NoelG]

Would be interested in two assuming they are complete kits with decals, etc.

[jhb171achil]

When new, not much need for decals! 

 

Original vans were like this, until they were in traffic a matter of days, when they became covered in a patina of brake dust, ordinary dirt, locomotive oil, steam and coal dust from when they travelled directly behind the engine.

 

By 1960 a good few plus all NEW ones were in CIE green.  By the time they started painting them into the black'n'tan livery in 1963, most were green, but a few still were a filthy dull grey colour - the remnants of this "silver".

 

In no livery did these vans ever carry any logo, either "flying snail" nor "broken wheel".

 

Lettering on the silver ones was at first red, but it wore off quickly. Then the standard light green "eau-de-nil"; this wore off too, and sometimes it was only possible to tell what number a van was by looking inside it!

 

Photo from P Dillon Collection, which I am currently listing and archiving.

 

 

[jhb171achil]

The above one has the light green lettering, and is coupled to another. The coach in the background is a green Park Royal.

Edited October 11, 2020 by jhb171achil

[John M]

Several Luggage vans were sometimes marshalled together with a Post Office van and Heating and Luggage van in mail trains.

 

In the mid-late 1970 rake of Parcel vans lost their gangways and were re-painted in an all-over "Tan" livery (similar to the newly introduced Van Hools  buses) for use on Connolly-Dunlaoire parcel trains.  I don't know the numbers the vans were lettered to "Run between Connolly & Dunlaoire-Pier"  "max speed 35mph".

 

SSM produced decals for the Silver, Green & Black & Tan liveries for the original batch of kits, though the "1.5t evenly distributed" section of the decal would need to be re-sized.

[colmflanagan]

I recall one other use of the tin vans. In the early seventies I was at Trinity and watched a number of rugby matches at Lansdowne Road. Shuttle trains conveyed fans and some of these were comprised of tin vans - standing room  only, everyone just piled in. The journey from Pearse was about five minutes and no one seemed to mind! The vans would reappear after the match for the return trip. I presume there was a shortage of "proper" passenger rolling stock on those occasions. Colm

[jhb171achil]

So, for tin vans, we may put together the following "table" for the benefit of those wanting to know what they ran with:

 

Late 1950s-1963

 

Passenger, Mail & Mixed trains, though the latter would have had a goods brake at the VERY end, behind the wagons.

Hauled by steam or diesel locos, also seen tacked onto the ends of AEC railcar trains.

Originally silver, including roof, ends & chassis, then green by degrees after 1959; though many remaining dirty silver. 

 

1963-69

Virtually ALL Passenger & Mail trains on main lines, branches and secondary routes; 6-wheeled versions on main lines only.

Exceptionally rarely - if ever - on secondary or branch routes.

Hauled by any class of loco.

Gradually repainted black'n'tan.

 

1969-77 or so.

Same as 1963-69, except now they are joined firstly by the Werkspoor / Dundalk Engineering Works "Dutch Vans", and then the ex-BR "BR Vans".

 

By 1977, their use was almost non-existent, confined to occasional appearances on the Ballina branch set, the Nenagh branch or the Limerick - Rosslare route. I am unaware of them in use after that. On extensive travels in 1978 I didn't see one in use, though a couple were to be seen lying about (and looking neglected) at Heuston, Inchicore and (I think) Limerick.

 

As mentioned elsewhere above, four were repainted in bus brown for the Dún Laoghaire Pier parcels traffic - but this was very short-lived.

[jhb171achil]

I should add places they got to, which mightn't be obvious;

 

1. West Cork (while silver) - the whole system still operable in the fifties.

 

2. The GNR "Derry Road" - they were used to carry newspapers and mails as far as Portadown, Great Victoria Street, and at least as far as Omagh, though probably Strabane too, and maybe Derry, tagged onto the back of a UTA (ex-GNR) AEC or BUT railcar set.

 

I am unaware of any ever having traversed the NCC to Waterside Station in Derry, but I wouldn't rule it out.

[jhb171achil]

Update on the above; speaking to an expert on things Foyle Road last night, I can confirm that tin vans DID get into Foyle Road, tagged onto the back of UTA railcars from Portadown.