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didcot
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Can anyone help with the photo below. 

My Great Grandfather, Ernest Arthur Wiltshire is in the first row on the left, the chap with a moustache. The shed is Westbury. That I believe to be true.  He lived in Westbury and the photo was taken by Till's of Westbury. 

The engine I think is 3815 County of Hants. On the original you can just make out "Y of" on the name plate and the last digit, 5, on number plate. They are visible between the shoulder of the chaps on the back row.

I would like to know a date and whether anyone can name anyone else in the photo. I did have a cutting once from the Wiltshire Times that had a few of the same faces in, but that has long disappeared.

Thanks

Matt

 

20200721_142244.jpg.cebd7e6d4c900e3554c72971b3c6389b.jpg

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3 hours ago, didcot said:

Can anyone help with the photo below. 

My Great Grandfather, Ernest Arthur Wiltshire is in the first row on the left, the chap with a moustache. The shed is Westbury. That I believe to be true.  He lived in Westbury and the photo was taken by Till's of Westbury. 

The engine I think is 3815 County of Hants. On the original you can just make out "Y of" on the name plate and the last digit, 5, on number plate. They are visible between the shoulder of the chaps on the back row.

I would like to know a date and whether anyone can name anyone else in the photo. I did have a cutting once from the Wiltshire Times that had a few of the same faces in, but that has long disappeared.

Thanks

Matt

 

20200721_142244.jpg.cebd7e6d4c900e3554c72971b3c6389b.jpg

The clothes, and the facial hair (or absence thereof) suggest a slightly later date; immediately post WW1, perhaps?

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43 minutes ago, KeithHC said:

Could it be a City class 3435 City of Bristol that would date the photo before 1912 as this loco was renumbered to 3712. Or could it be City of Hereford renumbered to 3715 in 1912.

 

Keith

I cannot tell one GWR class from another, but the position of "Y of" means that the second word is shorter than the first. County of Hants is therefore a likely possibility, and I think the only other possibilities (if the number does end in 5) are 3475 County of Wilts and 3835 County of Devon. These were both renumbered in 1912, with the former being pre-1912 and the latter post 1912. Perhaps on the original photograph the first letter of the county name is clear enough to rule these out.

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Can't be before 1912 as the loco has top feed.

 

I'm thinking 1920s as it also doesn't seem to have portholes in the cab front. But looks like they have been plated over.

 

Any reason for dismissing 3825 County Of Denbigh?

 

 

3815 was at Westbury in the 1920s though. I feel that is the most likely.

 

http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/m_in_440_county1.htm

 

I'm almost certain it is.

 

https://railway-photography.smugmug.com/GWRSteam-1/Churchward-Locomotives/Churchward-Tender-Locomotives/Churchward-County-class-440/Churchward-2221-County-Tank/i-PLNFtZ9/A

 

 

https://railway-photography.smugmug.com/GWRSteam-1/Churchward-Locomotives/Churchward-Tender-Locomotives/Churchward-County-class-440/Churchward-2221-County-Tank/i-QkQ3rNG/A

 

 

 

Jason

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13 hours ago, JimC said:

Can you read the lettering on the board? 

Might give some clues. 

Yes, GWR Mitual Improvement Class. Sadly the date on the chalk board wasn't filled out!

I've had a closer look at the name plate lettering. It's almost impossible to decifer the first letter after "of"

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21 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Can't be before 1912 as the loco has top feed.

 

I'm thinking 1920s as it also doesn't seem to have portholes in the cab front. But looks like they have been plated over.

 

Any reason for dismissing 3825 County Of Denbigh?

 

 

3815 was at Westbury in the 1920s though. I feel that is the most likely.

 

http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/m_in_440_county1.htm

 

I'm almost certain it is.

 

https://railway-photography.smugmug.com/GWRSteam-1/Churchward-Locomotives/Churchward-Tender-Locomotives/Churchward-County-class-440/Churchward-2221-County-Tank/i-PLNFtZ9/A

 

 

https://railway-photography.smugmug.com/GWRSteam-1/Churchward-Locomotives/Churchward-Tender-Locomotives/Churchward-County-class-440/Churchward-2221-County-Tank/i-QkQ3rNG/A

 

 

 

Jason

Is it just me or aren't the chimney's different? OP's pic, it's slimmer and tapering out towards the top?

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Have you thought of trying the relevant County Record Office or Local Studies Library? Someone should be custodian of the Wiltshire Times archive and have some information on what happened to Till's of Westbury. A long shot without a date to start with but if you don't ask, you won't know.

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3825 County of Denbigh in 1922 as in Rex Conway's GWR album has a wider chimney and safety valve cover, not the ones shown. It looks more like a Mogul's chimney to my very inexpert eye. That is not to say it couldn't have changed later. On the subject of dating by clothing etc.I would put it well into the 1920s. I have recently been doing a lot of family album scanning between 1870 and WW2 and the styles look midway between the wars.

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What was your G/Grandfather's job in the 1920s? Its an odd grouping, since assuming they are all working men they appear to be all in Sunday best with the exception of the men standing extreme R & L with caps. The chap on the R at least appears to be in footplate overalls.

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9 hours ago, JimC said:

What was your G/Grandfather's job in the 1920s? Its an odd grouping, since assuming they are all working men they appear to be all in Sunday best with the exception of the men standing extreme R & L with caps. The chap on the R at least appears to be in footplate overalls.

You might be right about the Sunday best. If this is a mutual improvement class, they may have met on Sunday. The guys in working clothes were probably the crew of the loco, who may or may not be actually members of the class, but had to be on duty. If you knew your group's photo was going to be taken I expect you would want to look your best.

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Spoke to a friend who did a quick trawl through Ancestry. He sent me an imaged of what looks like Ernest's record of employment. It looks like he was posted to Westbury 4th Feb 1918. Description of works looks like 1st Goods! I'm not sure about copyright so wont post it here. My grandparents marriage certificate of 1933 state his profession as GWR Engine Driver.

 

It does look like they are in their Sunday best. On closer inspection it looks like Ernest has an ASLEF fob on a chain. It just hanging below his folded arms.

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I wonder if it would be worthwhile making a trip to Westbury?  I'm not sure if the local BRSA club is still there but the Labour Club up in the town probably is and used to be well frequented by railwaymen.  Lots of railway families in Westbury had been there for several generations although there are obviously far fewer there nowadays and most of those I know back in the 1970s have now gone.  One reason for saying this is that a couple in the photo have a familiar look t them so quite likely had descendants working on the railway 50 years later.  Alas the time is, I think,  long gone when you will find anyone who actually knew the men in the photo.

 

I suspect the record card might well say 'Fast Goods' - there's no copyright on railway staff record cards that old.

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I haven't been to Westbury properly since my Grandmother died 13 years ago. Have stopped off at the cemetery whilst on the way to Longleat but you can see the town has changed.

 

Record below

1131733789_ErnestWiltshireGWR15Dec1902.jpg.31435852bc7f9b3bf652ab9adc511394.jpg

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2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I wonder if it would be worthwhile making a trip to Westbury?  I'm not sure if the local BRSA club is still there but the Labour Club up in the town probably is and used to be well frequented by railwaymen.  Lots of railway families in Westbury had been there for several generations although there are obviously far fewer there nowadays and most of those I know back in the 1970s have now gone.  One reason for saying this is that a couple in the photo have a familiar look t them so quite likely had descendants working on the railway 50 years later.  Alas the time is, I think,  long gone when you will find anyone who actually knew the men in the photo.

 

I suspect the record card might well say 'Fast Goods' - there's no copyright on railway staff record cards that old.

 

The club in front of the station has been demolished..... lots more parking spaces for the station now :(

 

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2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I wonder if 1st Group etc is for pay rates or some sort of seniority grouping?   I see that  '3rd Group Engineman' appears against him apparently being passed for driving which suggests he them progressed, probably by seniority (?) to 1st Group

I did wonder about that.

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