Problem hand built turnout

[ikcdab]

I have hand built copperclad track for years. For the new layout, I have decided to use ply sleepers and c&l functional chairs. This is 4mm, 16.5mm gauge.

I printed off a B8 template from templot and set off. The chairs are bonded to the ply sleepers with butanone. I have used super glue to fix the stock rail to the slide chairs.

All went well but I now find that the straight (ish) stock rail is leaning outwards slightly. I'm not sure if it was like this when I glued the chairs to the ply, or whether drying has introduced some stresses. And yes, I do have the chairs the right way round with keys on the outside.

If wouldn't necessarily be a problem, but the curved switch rail now doesn't fit up against the stock perfectly. This is a turnout that will be in the loco yard, so I could just live with it, but I am not happy.

I have tried twisting the rail back, but this doesn't help.

I dont know why the rail has twisted out, maybe there are some chairs not flat, but they seem ok. Or maybe some of the mouldings were distorted, I did go d a lot of flash on the c&l mouldings.

I could try gentle heat to soften things and bend the rail out...with trepidation.

Or I could try and release all of the chairs from the ply sleepers and try and refix them. That seems a drastic solution but I am considering it.

Anyway, some photos attached. Bit difficult to see, the twisting is at the toe end, it's not so bad at the heel.

Any advice or comments gratefully received.

[meil]

Solidly soldering the point blade to the stretcher doesn't help and is always a recipe for disaster.

[Izzy]

I would hazard a guess it's the actual rail that has twisted along it's length, it is possible. I wouldn't want to leave it like this, wherever the point will be located the odds are it will give problems at some time, well, it would be for me, I never get away with things like this.

 

It is fairly easy to slide a scalpel blade under the chair base and part it from the sleeper. This is one of the advantages of plastic chairs on ply sleepers. They bond quite well enough but can be parted. The slide chairs glued to the rail might be another issue. Hopefully you have more and can replace them once parted from the sleepers.

 

Izzy

[gordon s]

17 minutes ago, meil said:

Solidly soldering the point blade to the stretcher doesn't help and is always a recipe for disaster.

 

Not a problem with slow motion motors. It's the shock via a solenoid that breaks the solder joint. I fully accept there are more prototypical methods of mounting the blades, but I've had no problem at all with Tortoise motors.

[ikcdab]

20 minutes ago, meil said:

Solidly soldering the point blade to the stretcher doesn't help and is always a recipe for disaster.

I think we will see. I have done this before with no problems. I have used a generous blob of solder and the blades only move 1.75mm under gentle servo control. 

[ikcdab]

3 hours ago, Izzy said:

I would hazard a guess it's the actual rail that has twisted along it's length, it is possible. I wouldn't want to leave it like this, wherever the point will be located the odds are it will give problems at some time, well, it would be for me, I never get away with things like this.

 

It is fairly easy to slide a scalpel blade under the chair base and part it from the sleeper. This is one of the advantages of plastic chairs on ply sleepers. They bond quite well enough but can be parted. The slide chairs glued to the rail might be another issue. Hopefully you have more and can replace them once parted from the sleepers.

 

Izzy

Hi Izzy, thanks for that.  Is it possible that brand new c&l rail might be twisted?

[Andy Reichert]

5 hours ago, gordon s said:

 

Not a problem with slow motion motors. It's the shock via a solenoid that breaks the solder joint. I fully accept there are more prototypical methods of mounting the blades, but I've had no problem at all with Tortoise motors.

 

Normally a soldered stretcher bar eventually suffers metal fatigue due the slight repeated joint twisting of parallelogram distortion. It's usually on the maintenance schedule of larger US club layouts. Solder only sets as soft as it was before use, it does not harden.

 

Andy

[hayfield]

I would remove the slide chairs and the first two chairs. Fit new standard chairs first (the cant will be set) and allow to cure, then fit the slide chairs using superglue to the rails only, once dry use butanone to stick the slide chairs to the timbers 

[Izzy]

3 hours ago, ikcdab said:

Hi Izzy, thanks for that.  Is it possible that brand new c&l rail might be twisted?

 

Anything is possible, and given the chairs should give a cant (1:20) the other way it seems reasonable to think the rail has twisted somehow. It is also a possibility that soldering the tie-bar has somehow heated and warped the chairs depending on how long you have lingered with the iron.  I have never used sleeper tie-bars like this so can't advise on that aspect -you'll notice they hold the rail above the sleeper so this type of tie-bar also looks a bit obvious and out of place with BH chaired track, but they will also prevent the blades from seating properly up against the stock rail. And of course as has been said the strain of them not rotating will eventually cause the joint to break. Tie-bars really need to allow the blades to flex (horizontally not vertically of course) somehow by some means.

 

As you have never used this method of construction before you might find you need to revise how you wave a soldering iron around, keeping heat localised and away from the plastic chairs. I've built track like this since the chairs first arrived so have had plenty of time to get used to it!

 

Izzy

[gordon s]

1 hour ago, Andy Reichert said:

 

Normally a soldered stretcher bar eventually suffers metal fatigue due the slight repeated joint twisting of parallelogram distortion. It's usually on the maintenance schedule of larger US club layouts. Solder only sets as soft as it was before use, it does not harden.

 

Andy

I can’t disagree, but of course it depends on the definition of eventually. Eventually we all die, but we can build a lot of layouts in that time......

[Andy Reichert]

21 hours ago, gordon s said:

I can’t disagree, but of course it depends on the definition of eventually. Eventually we all die, but we can build a lot of layouts in that time......

 

Take the time to fail for one turnout and divide by the number of turnouts on the layout. Bigger layouts can really clock up the maintenance frequency and effort.

 

Also consider the difficulty required to repair turnouts in situ in difficult to access or delicately scenicked areas.

 

 

Andy

[martin_wynne]

A solid tie-bar fixing in a copper-clad moving sleeper is sub-optimal, but not so far sub to outweigh the simplicity of the design. Thousands of turnouts on hundreds of layouts have used solid tie-bar fixings without the sky falling in.

 

It's helpful to reinforce the joint by inserting a vero pin or similar. If the pin is not pressed fully home, there is a recess under the head into which the rail foot can be located:

Some care is needed in measuring the hole centres to give the required switch opening. Vero pins have barbs under the head to make a firm fixing in copper-clad laminate:

 

 

Vero pins from: https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/products/6319596/

 

If you have use of a lathe, a rotating pin can be turned, having a groove to locate the foot of the rail. In this case for use in unclad laminate or tufnol, etc.:

This removes all twisting stress from the joint and needs only a minimum of solder for a neat result. More significantly, it allows flexible switch blades to take up the prototypical curve when open, which a solid fixing prevents.

 

I supplied both of these designs of tie-bar when I was supplying pointwork kits and components 40 years ago. Here we are all this time later, still trading arguments about it.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[Andy Reichert]

I don't see providing additional relevant facts as arguing.

 

However. I'm really interested in hearing what the OP has since discovered about the cause, and hopefully fix, for the leaning rail.

 

Andy

[martin_wynne]

16 minutes ago, Andy Reichert said:

I don't see providing additional relevant facts as arguing.

 

 

I said argument, not arguing.

 

argument (n):  a reason or set of reasons given in support of an idea, action or theory

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

On 25/07/2020 at 15:40, Andy Reichert said:

 

Take the time to fail for one turnout and divide by the number of turnouts on the layout. Bigger layouts can really clock up the maintenance frequency and effort.

 

Also consider the difficulty required to repair turnouts in situ in difficult to access or delicately scenicked areas.

 

 

Andy

 

1 hour ago, Andy Reichert said:

I don't see providing additional relevant facts as arguing.

 

However. I'm really interested in hearing what the OP has since discovered about the cause, and hopefully fix, for the leaning rail.

 

Andy

 

I would not see the first post as being facts but an opinion based on yours and or someone else's experience or opinion. and totally irrelevant to the stock rail being twisted.

 

A clear fact is I built my first copper turnout 50 odd years ago, at that time the system must have been in operation for at least 30 years

 

True some joints failed, but it could quite easily be put down to poor construction and or materials used, and even if there was a system or rotation and or springing if the joint failed due to bad workmanship or materials then it was not the fault of soldering the rail to a piece of copperclad

 

The force exerted by solenoids could be dampened either by sprung wire or omega loop, use of modern point motor will also exert less pressure

 

If a switch rail is built correctly (with half the foot left intact)  and a proper soldered joint is made, the copperclad would delaminate before the soldered joint failed

 

Back to the OP's problem, I doubt if the soldered joint made the rail deform, the talk about the strength of the join between the switch rail and tiebar is a red herring. Its the stock rail that is facing incorrectly, without careful inspection I would guess its something to do with the slide chairs and superglue and or the rail actually having been twisted, to be quite honest I would have thought the two standard chairs have not pulled it back into position

[ikcdab]

I'm pretty sure its not the first two chairs as i have already refixed those. After reading these posts, i think it's probably the slide chairs. I did indeed superglue the chairs to the rail first, then fixed the chairs to the sleepers. Its easy to see that if the chairs aren't fixed squarely to the rails, then the rail gets distorted when the chasirs are fixed to sleepers.

Tomorrow I will have time to investigate.

Edited July 26, 2020 by ikcdab

[hayfield]

3 hours ago, ikcdab said:

I'm pretty sure its not the first two chairs as i have already refixed those. After reading these posts, i think it's probably the slide chairs. I did indeed superglue the chairs to the rail first, then fixed the chairs to the sleepers. Its easy to see that if the chairs aren't fixed squarely to the rails, then the rail gets distorted when the chasirs are fixed to sleepers.

Tomorrow I will have time to investigate.

 

Before fitting the slide chairs I fix the chairs either side of the slide chairs to the timbers, the rail will be held at the correct angle.

I then superglue the slide chairs to the rails first, holding my finger on the top of the rail pressing down till the superglue sets.

Then I use solvent to glue the slide chairs to the timbers

[Andy Reichert]

On 26/07/2020 at 10:55, hayfield said:

 

 

I would not see the first post as being facts but an opinion based on yours and or someone else's experience or opinion. and totally irrelevant to the stock rail being twisted.

 

A clear fact is I built my first copper turnout 50 odd years ago, at that time the system must have been in operation for at least 30 years

 

True some joints failed, but it could quite easily be put down to poor construction and or materials used, and even if there was a system or rotation and or springing if the joint failed due to bad workmanship or materials then it was not the fault of soldering the rail to a piece of copperclad

 

The force exerted by solenoids could be dampened either by sprung wire or omega loop, use of modern point motor will also exert less pressure

 

If a switch rail is built correctly (with half the foot left intact)  and a proper soldered joint is made, the copperclad would delaminate before the soldered joint failed

 

Back to the OP's problem, I doubt if the soldered joint made the rail deform, the talk about the strength of the join between the switch rail and tiebar is a red herring. Its the stock rail that is facing incorrectly, without careful inspection I would guess its something to do with the slide chairs and superglue and or the rail actually having been twisted, to be quite honest I would have thought the two standard chairs have not pulled it back into position

 

It would be more helpful if you quoted the persons who made the off-topic points you are arguing against, rather than quoting my responses to them.

 

Andy

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Andy Reichert said:

 

It would be more helpful if you quoted the persons who made the off-topic points you are arguing against, rather than quoting my responses to them.

 

Andy

 Andy

 

 I was replying to your post

[Andy Reichert]

4 hours ago, hayfield said:

 Andy

 

 I was replying to your post

 

My post wasn't addressing you or any remark you made. You were selectively trolling me, rather than the originators in order to affect my reputation and credibility, as you have recently done elsewhere.

 

Andy

 

 

 

 

[hayfield]

Andy

I was selectively replying two or more of you postings where you are making claims of the suitability of a well tried and trusted method!! There was no need to reply to Meil's post as Gordon did this.

I have just checked your recent postings, out of the 6 different threads you post in this is the only one I have commented on. Yes we have disagreed on track building subjects in the past, I don't think I was ever the disruptive contributor, out of respect to the site and members I will in future ignore your postings and would be very grateful if you reciprocate 

 

In your words "I don't see providing additional relevant facts as arguing." or even trolling. Like you I have given in writing both my opinions on the matter and what I believe are the facts. Perhaps its more of a case that you fail to accept others can have a valid alternative opinions to those you hold

 

 

 

[roythebus]

You say tomaytos, I say tomartos... soldering irons at dawn?

 

I too have been building copper clad track since about 1964 when I was in the 2nd year at grammar school. That never fell apart. I built most of the original copper clad pointwork for the MRC's New Anningotn exhibition layout. I don't recall a tiebar come unsoldered from a switch rail. there were over 60 pints on that layout.

 

What I use as a simple in these days is a bit of 0.3mm brass wire in a flat Z shape through a hole in the tiebar. cheap and effective and easier than turning down small pins.

 

[d00m]

On 30/07/2020 at 22:43, roythebus said:

You say tomaytos, I say tomartos... soldering irons at dawn?

 

I too have been building copper clad track since about 1964 when I was in the 2nd year at grammar school. That never fell apart. I built most of the original copper clad pointwork for the MRC's New Anningotn exhibition layout. I don't recall a tiebar come unsoldered from a switch rail. there were over 60 pints on that layout.

 

What I use as a simple in these days is a bit of 0.3mm brass wire in a flat Z shape through a hole in the tiebar. cheap and effective and easier than turning down small pins.

 

After 60 pints my track might wander....

 

[Brassey]

When setting out turnouts I have used a Society jig or gauge to hold the rail in what is an upright position and held it firmly in place until the glue/solder has gone off.  This negates the cant built into the C&L chairs though.  I wonder whether the OP used anything to hold the rail? 

 

My switch blades are soldered to 0.9mm pins through the baseboard using a system publicised on the S4 Society forum.  I too use Tortoise motors.  The joints constantly fail.  I have now resolved to replace all these the next time I dismantle the layout to move it and I can get underneath.  There are only 6 sets of blades.

[hayfield]

Brassey

 

The rail is actually bending against the cant, if it was only due to the chairs being held upright by the gauges, either the superglue holding the rail in the switch chairs would continue to keep it upright, or the chairs would relax back into shape and gauge narrow.

 

Would be interesting to know what was the cause of the problem

 

You do make a valid point, in that it is most important to use gauges that allow the rail to rotate on the slots, more so in P4 & EM gauges