‘Sample’ - customs fraud?

[009 micro modeller]

I usually only use eBay within the UK but have recently bought something from overseas (non-EU). It is going through customs but I’ve been informed by the courier (FedEx) that a more detailed description of the items has been requested. No problem, I (as the importer) can provide that. However, it seems that the seller has described the item as a ‘sample,’ on the documentation. As it is definitely not a sample, I understand this to be fraudulent - samples are free of import charges (rather like the older technique of declaring everything as ‘gift,’ only perhaps less obvious).

 

I am very happy to pay the tax due rather than become complicit in this fraud (particularly given that a quick inspection would make it fairly obvious that the item is not a sample). However, will I still be able to receive the package? The eBay sale was fine and the amended description sent by myself would also be entirely legitimate, but would FedEx not be allowed to deliver without further investigation due to the incorrect original description provided by the seller?

[Dagworth]

I had a bunch of logic circuit chips that I bought recently from eBay that came from China, that packet claimed to be a "sample" and to contain 5 chips. There were 6 in it. 

 

Andi

[Derekl]

If you don't respond with a full description you won't get the item. I also don't think they will send it back, just impound it.  I would be inclined to give a proper answer - if they ask, you have no idea why the seller described it as a "sample". They may suspect that is because you asked him/her to do so, so it may be an idea when replying that you regard the description as inappropriate and not one you would have used. (Of course, you are then likely to have to pay tax, if there is any).

[Oldddudders]

It's how some of the Far East works, to avoid EU taxes. I had a £2k camera body arrive from Hong Kong as a 'sample', carried by one of the big courier companies. Often such ebay items are advertised as being located in the UK, so the consignee really is innocent of defrauding the taxman. 

[009 micro modeller]

39 minutes ago, Derekl said:

If you don't respond with a full description you won't get the item. I also don't think they will send it back, just impound it.  I would be inclined to give a proper answer - if they ask, you have no idea why the seller described it as a "sample". They may suspect that is because you asked him/her to do so, so it may be an idea when replying that you regard the description as inappropriate and not one you would have used. (Of course, you are then likely to have to pay tax, if there is any).

 

Exactly, which is what I was going to do. I was just wondering if they would still impound it until the seller had been investigated further as a result of the original description (which I don't agree with) being fraudulent.

 

If it had got through customs without me finding out that it had been described in this way then I might have just left it alone, but as the alternatives seem to be taking part in the fraud or not receiving the item I will just pay the tax. This is the correct thing to do in any case, and the importer is usually ultimately responsible for the customs clearance. Regardless of any of this, it should be fairly obvious to anyone who checks the item that it is NOT a sample - the rest of the short description is similarly incorrect.

Edited July 27, 2020 by 009 micro modeller

[Derekl]

4 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Exactly, which is what I was going to do. I was just wondering if they would still impound it until the seller had been investigated further as a result of the original description (which I don't agree with) being fraudulent.

 

My guess is that if you tell them what it is and pay any tax levied that is likely to be the end of it. On the assumption that it is relatively modest value (not in the £10K plus range) I doubt there are the resources to investigate. I suspect they will take your word for it and not even open the parcel

[Derekl]

But let us know what happens

[Matt C]

Could you not include a screenshot of your original Ebay order to back up your description ?

[009 micro modeller]

14 minutes ago, Mattc6911 said:

Could you not include a screenshot of your original Ebay order to back up your description ?

 

Yes. FedEx haven’t actually said there’s anything wrong with it but simply that the description is too vague, so they are very likely to take my word for it. It’s just that because I now know about the slightly fraudulent original description I would be partly responsible for it, and it is more likely to be looked at given that they’ve already queried it. The main consideration is whether further problems will be created if my description is nothing like the seller’s (as opposed to just the same but more detailed). Incidentally it was quite badly described on eBay as well, but I think that was down to lack of knowledge rather than fraud...

Edited July 27, 2020 by 009 micro modeller

[chris p bacon]

Having had items shipped to me several times over the years from various parts of the world that were either purchased, or were my Fathers belongings being sent home, you are opening a can of worms.

 

While you want to do the honest thing and pay the tax, the fact that the seller has tried to be fraudulent will mean that they will trust neither of you and levy what tax they want you to pay. You may well show them what you purchased and the value you paid but that does not mean that they won't levy a fine for being misleading. 

Personally I would not say anything and let the parcel be delivered, if you are asked to pay then do so but I wouldn't go looking for a bill as you may get one you have to pay and still not get the goods.

 

Edit to add, reading your reply above the onus is on the seller to provide details as they are the ccustomer of FedEx, you are just the recipient.

Edited July 27, 2020 by chris p bacon

[009 micro modeller]

17 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

Having had items shipped to me several times over the years from various parts of the world that were either purchased, or were my Fathers belongings being sent home, you are opening a can of worms.

 

While you want to do the honest thing and pay the tax, the fact that the seller has tried to be fraudulent will mean that they will trust neither of you and levy what tax they want you to pay. You may well show them what you purchased and the value you paid but that does not mean that they won't levy a fine for being misleading. 

Personally I would not say anything and let the parcel be delivered, if you are asked to pay then do so but I wouldn't go looking for a bill as you may get one you have to pay and still not get the goods.

 

Edit to add, reading your reply above the onus is on the seller to provide details as they are the ccustomer of FedEx, you are just the recipient.

 

So in that case I should ask the seller to provide the more detailed description. But then it may be incorrectly described again, as it wasn’t described well in the listing. Doing nothing and waiting for it to be delivered is not an option as they have stated that if more detailed information to clear customs is not provided by 3rd August it will be returned to the seller. The difference is that if it had been incorrectly described but still got through to me with no questions, I might have later found out but would not have actually been responsible.

 

While I agree that the FedEx customer in this case is the seller, I was under the impression that from HMRC’s point of view it is ultimately the importer’s responsibility to ensure that goods are declared correctly.

[Andy Hayter]

If it is a model railway item or other "toy" then fear not.  There are no duties, but if it is high value you may have to pay VAT.

 

Sorry to use the toy word.  I know it causes many a great deal of angst or anger.  However in international trade terms that is what we are dealing with and we should enjoy the duty free regime that that creates.

[009 micro modeller]

20 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

If it is a model railway item or other "toy" then fear not.  There are no duties, but if it is high value you may have to pay VAT.

 

Sorry to use the toy word.  I know it causes many a great deal of angst or anger.  However in international trade terms that is what we are dealing with and we should enjoy the duty free regime that that creates.

 

Actually in this case it is an old model railway item so toy is probably a more appropriate term (it is not, for import purposes, an antique though as I think they are defined as over 100 years old in this context). It isn’t particularly high value either. But VAT is also avoided on ‘samples’ so that issue may still remain.

 

Edit: it is over the value for paying VAT though, unless classified as a gift.

Edited July 27, 2020 by 009 micro modeller

[APOLLO]

I ordered some of these from Ebay

 

 

The supplier was from China,  UK customs contacted me stating I needed to pay duty as they were not a "sample" - I thought they were taking the pi55 !!!!!

 

Brit15

[009 micro modeller]

18 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

I ordered some of these from Ebay

 

 

The supplier was from China,  UK customs contacted me stating I needed to pay duty as they were not a "sample" - I thought they were taking the pi55 !!!!!

 

Brit15

 

Did they also fine you though or just ask you to pay the unpaid duty? I think this is basically what I need to know the answer to.

[Andy Hayter]

I don't think anyone can be definitive, but I would doubt that you would be fined.  Of course if someone from HMRC decided to take Umbridge for whatever reason................

However as I understand it this is a question from the shipping company (FedEx) and not HMRC itself, so do not get too anxious about it.  They are probably just crossing Ts and dotting Is to avoid getting the brown stuff piled on them at some future audit by HMRC.   (Look we chased these incoming packages for details and so are doing our bit in controlling contraband.)  

[YesTor]

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Did they also fine you though or just ask you to pay the unpaid duty? I think this is basically what I need to know the answer to.

 

2 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Actually in this case it is an old model railway item so toy is probably a more appropriate term...  It isn’t particularly high value either.

 

As others have said, I'd be incredibly surprised if FedEx/HMRC are going to impose any kind of fine, especially if the item is of fairly low value - I'm sure that HMRC have much bigger fish to fry.  I'm guessing perhaps that the seller might have described the item in vague terminology, eg. "toy", "model", "train", "plastic kit"... so FedEx likely require a little more detail as to the package contents and its value.  My guess is that upon receipt of an accurate description and value of the contents that they will simply bill for the appropriate VAT and any processing fee that the couriers usually charge - I believe that Parcelforce add their own £12 processing fee, no idea what FedEx may charge...

 

Best

Al

 

[Jonboy]

It’s an import and the importer is responsible for the customs declaration being correct.
 

I would give an honest description and the true value you paid for it. You have proof, if required of the amount paid via your bank statement or Paypal account but I wouldn’t provide anything over what they have asked, just keep it simple.
 

(At work I deal with around 5 commercial imports a week from small parcels to 40’ containers, for each one we provide our own clearance instructions and descriptions to the clearing agent, but normally the value matches the invoices that the supplier gave the carrier).
 

HMRC won’t likely even be aware this has been discussed...they do However enjoy auditing our consignments worth in the tens of thousands for errors...

[PatB]

7 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

I don't think anyone can be definitive, but I would doubt that you would be fined.  Of course if someone from HMRC decided to take Umbridge for whatever reason................

 

That's in Kent, on the old LCDR isn't it?

[009 micro modeller]

6 hours ago, YesTor said:

 

 

As others have said, I'd be incredibly surprised if FedEx/HMRC are going to impose any kind of fine, especially if the item is of fairly low value - I'm sure that HMRC have much bigger fish to fry.  I'm guessing perhaps that the seller might have described the item in vague terminology, eg. "toy", "model", "train", "plastic kit"... so FedEx likely require a little more detail as to the package contents and its value.  My guess is that upon receipt of an accurate description and value of the contents that they will simply bill for the appropriate VAT and any processing fee that the couriers usually charge - I believe that Parcelforce add their own £12 processing fee, no idea what FedEx may charge...

 

Best

Al

 

 

They’ve actually described it (spuriously and probably generically) as a ‘handicraft sample.’ FedEx have a signed document saying that this is correct, although obviously it is the seller’s signature and not mine. Interestingly the value declared is accurate so no issues there.

Edited July 28, 2020 by 009 micro modeller

[Darius43]

8 hours ago, YesTor said:

 

 

As others have said, I'd be incredibly surprised if FedEx/HMRC are going to impose any kind of fine, especially if the item is of fairly low value - I'm sure that HMRC have much bigger fish to fry.  I'm guessing perhaps that the seller might have described the item in vague terminology, eg. "toy", "model", "train", "plastic kit"... so FedEx likely require a little more detail as to the package contents and its value.  My guess is that upon receipt of an accurate description and value of the contents that they will simply bill for the appropriate VAT and any processing fee that the couriers usually charge - I believe that Parcelforce add their own £12 processing fee, no idea what FedEx may charge...

 

Best

Al

 

 

I had a simiar request from Parcelforce when I received a model train from Japan that I had purchased through eBay.  I sent them a verbal description and a copy of the eBay sales listing and they duly requested the import VAT payment etc. and then delivered it to me.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[APOLLO]

Early 2000's (when the exchange rate was over two $ = one £) I ordered a new Weaver O scale loco direct from Weaver Models over in the USA. It arrived at Royal Mail depot behind Broad Green railway station Liverpool and I had to go and collect it, and pay customs duty etc of around £30 -  which I did with no problem, Sadly Weaver has now closed (owner retired - moulds etc sold to Atlas).

 

A couple of years ago I bought a s/hand loco cheap off ebay from a model shop in Los Angeles. The transaction went well, loco as described but the ebay post/ customs etc fees, paid up front were expensive, based on the model cost (which was a bargain at £80). No more ebay from the USA for me though. Ridiculous P&P / customs fees now.

 

I have also bought many cheap articles from China off ebay - some with free P&P. Never any problems, mostly a couple of weeks wait, always in a China Post small packet marked as sample, lowered cost, childs toy etc. Who am I to argue ?

 

Brit15

[spamcan61]

I really really wouldn't overthink this, if it's a model railway item describe it as a "toy train" job done. It's hardly fraud as they've declared the correct value anyway! I assume the seller uses a very generic description to avoid generating lots of similar but not identical paperwork. 

[Damo666]

10 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

Of course if someone from HMRC decided to take Umbridge for whatever reason................

 

2 hours ago, PatB said:

That's in Kent, on the old LCDR isn't it?

 

Sorry, you are way off. It's North-West London, at the end of the Piccadilly Line.

 

 

[PhilH]

Would it be fair to say that exporters do this, or similar, eg marked as 'gift', as this is what most of their customers, unlike the honest citizens on here, want?

 

Most don't want to pay the duties, vat and often post office fees associated with these transactions.