What makes something valuable/rare.

[RJS1977]

2 hours ago, Northmoor said:

I was once at a charity auction of motorsport memorabilia where the idiot auctioneer described a pair of items as, "Absolutely unique, there's only two of them".

 

Not the first person in motorsports to say something like that though. One very well-known commentator once said:

 

"The leading car is absolutely unique, apart from the one behind it which is identical...."

 

Not mentioning any names, but his other gems included:

 

"And now the first five cars in this race are all Ford Escorts! Which is hardly surprising, as they're all Ford Escorts in this race...."

 

"And here they come now, the first five cars, with FIVE DIFFERENT DRIVERS!"

[Northmoor]

God bless Murray Walker.

[kevinlms]

21 hours ago, Northmoor said:

I was once at a charity auction of motorsport memorabilia where the idiot auctioneer described a pair of items as, "Absolutely unique, there's only two of them".

A pair of gloves?

[5050]

UNIQUE - possibly the least understood and most misused word in the English language.

[EddieB]

Surely it boils down to the fundamentals of economics - where demand outstrips supply, prices go up, the opposite and they come down?

 

Of course “demand” in our sphere can be subjective, the “I never realised I wanted one of those” factor, which certain sellers do their best to exploit.

[Joseph_Pestell]

17 minutes ago, EddieB said:

Surely it boils down to the fundamentals of economics - where demand outstrips supply, prices go up, the opposite and they come down?

 

Of course “demand” in our sphere can be subjective, the “I never realised I wanted one of those” factor, which certain sellers do their best to exploit.

 

You are missing an element in demand/supply economic theory. It is conditional on a "perfect market" in which all buyers have full knowledge.

[EddieB]

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

You are missing an element in demand/supply economic theory. It is conditional on a "perfect market" in which all buyers have full knowledge.

Hence ‘the “I never realised I wanted one of those” factor, which certain sellers do their best to exploit’...

[Joseph_Pestell]

I think that is a slightly different idea, albeit a very valid point about the mechanics of eBay.

 

Purely as an economics/politics nerd, eBay is an interesting phenomenon, as indeed is the whole web. If 17th century economists had been able to envisage the web, they may have thought it to be that elusive "perfect market". Buyers have access to all the information they need about items and the price at which they can be bought anywhere in the world.

 

And yet, it does not work. Buyers pay more than they should for many items and services.

[newbryford]

On 31/07/2020 at 17:25, 5050 said:

UNIQUE - possibly the least understood and most misused word in the English language.

 

 I used it once................

[Oldddudders]

9 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

 I used it once................

.......but think you got away with it?

[trustytrev]

Hello,

       I have a Baltic tank front bogey without cow catcher. Is it worth a lot? It could be used at the rear as well but would not be genuine for that purpose. So it is definitely a front one.

trustytrev.

[Poggy1165]

The answer to the question is demand at a given price.

 

There is only one Mona Lisa, and any number of rich people who would want to buy it so it is beyond price.

 

Let's imagine a notional model loco. Superbly made, of an obscure prototype that maybe three people in the UK would want to buy. Two of them model in 4mm scale and this happens to be 7mm. 

 

Then let's imagine a very rare version of a Hornby Flying Scotsman. There were only a few ever made, This one happens to be mint and boxed. There are thousands and thousands of serious collectors who would want it, plus quite a few modellers who happen to fancy Flying Scotsman in that particular condition.

 

Which is "more valuable"? 

[doktorstamp]

Can we expect a "Market Guide to Model Railway Collectables" appearing in a Smiths near you any time soon?

 

regards

 

Nigel

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, doktorstamp said:

Can we expect a "Market Guide to Model Railway Collectables" appearing in a Smiths near you any time soon?

 

Please God, no.  It'll be like Miller's Antiques Guide, where everyone thinks their own item is worth the top value.

[cypherman]

On 17/08/2020 at 21:23, Northmoor said:

Please God, no.  It'll be like Miller's Antiques Guide, where everyone thinks their own item is worth the top value.

Ebay and online shopping has stopped a lot of what was once considered rare and therefore valuable  It showing that there were more out there than people thought and hence then not so rare. A tale to illustrate this was at one tine 40 years ago or there about I needed a new tender for one of my Wrenn Merchant Navy class engines( Dorchester). I got in touch with several model shops and was told that they were as rare as hens teeth. Only one shop had one in and they wanted £75.00 for it as it was such a rare item. As you might guess I just repaired my old tender and made do. Along comes the internet and online shopping, I check out of curiosity to see what price and if there any available. There at least a dozen for sale in varying states. I paid £20.00 including postage for a near mint one. Therefore availability reduces value. Like the old adage of stack them high and sell them cheap. The more that are available reduces the value.

Edited August 19, 2020 by cypherman

[Northmoor]

13 hours ago, cypherman said:

Ebay and online shopping has stopped a lot of what was once considered rare and therefore valuable  

I agree to an extent, but the number of "Rare/Collectable" Tri-ang or 1970s Hornby items listed at any time (when the things were made by the ship-load), suggests not every seller on eBay has read the memo.

[Talltim]

14 hours ago, cypherman said:

Ebay and online shopping has stopped a lot of what was once considered rare and therefore valuable  It showing that there were more out there than people thought and hence then not so rare. A tale to illustrate this was at one tine 30 years ago or there about I needed a new tender for one of my Wrenn Merchant Navy class engines( Dorchester). I got in touch with several model shops and was told that they were as rare as hens teeth. Only one shop had one in and they wanted £75.00 for it as it was such a rare item. As you might guess I just repaired my old tender and made do. Along comes the internet and online shopping, I check out of curiosity to see what price and if there any available. There at least a dozen for sale in varying states. I paid £15.00 including postage for a near mint one. Therefore availability reduces value. Like the old adage of stack them high and sell them cheap. The more that are available reduces the value.

Didn’t you start the thread with this anecdote?

[Talltim]

Like with other collectibles thing go in fashion cycles too.

For example, I would imagine that most of those who collect 60s Hornby  Dublo* are those who coveted it in their youth. As they die out the market for it will shrink, there will still be those who collect it without the emotional attachment, but their numbers will be smaller 
 

 

*if that even exists, before my time

[Firecracker]

All you need to make something worth money in an auction is two people who want it.  The red mist and the auctioneer do the rest (speaking as someone who stood at a farm sale and watched people buying used plastic buckets at twice new price).  EBay is an auction (which following a spectacular spat about feedback and an idiot buyer I won’t use any more) and the ‘rare/unique/collectors edition’ nonsense in the title of the item 90% of the time is an attempt to catch a fresh sucker.

 

I’ll admit to being intrigued by UK secondhand prices for model railway stuff.  Some is just plain ridiculous optimism (got snarled at at one exhibition when the stallowner was moaning about tight fisted customers, how no one was spending any money with him and I suggested his prices may have had something to do with it), yet at one of the last exhibitions I attended I stood at a secondhand stall with a Bachman jinty (unboxed)in my hand that had £25 on it and watched someone hand over twice that for an ancient triang jinty that was in worse condition.  I’ve picked up a Bachman standard 4 and a Midland 4F (neither in original packaging, but otherwise perfect, excellent runners and both have since been renumbered anyway) for less than older Hornby, Lima and triang stuff on the same stalls.  But hey ho, it would be a very strange world if we all wanted the same stuff.

 

Owain

[cypherman]

1 hour ago, Talltim said:

Didn’t you start the thread with this anecdote?

Hi,

Yes I did start this thread with this anecdote. I reposted it to make sure as the thread continues that it's main point is not forgotten. And I still stand by it.

[kevinlms]

On 19/08/2020 at 23:32, Firecracker said:

All you need to make something worth money in an auction is two people who want it.  The red mist and the auctioneer do the rest (speaking as someone who stood at a farm sale and watched people buying used plastic buckets at twice new price).

 

Owain

So why is that an issue? If people want to buy such an item at an inflated price, that is their right.

Sometimes this sort of thing happens to support someone who is losing their property.

[PatB]

2 hours ago, kevinlms said:

So why is that an issue? If people want to buy such an item at an inflated price, that is their right.

Sometimes this sort of thing happens to support someone who is losing their property.

My first thought was money laundering, but maybe spending my youth amongst the deeply dodgy has affected my thought processes more than I imagined . 

[Firecracker]

5 hours ago, kevinlms said:

So why is that an issue? If people want to buy such an item at an inflated price, that is their right.

Sometimes this sort of thing happens to support someone who is losing their property.

it’s not a problem at all, more a source of amusement when someone  quotes an auction price and wonders why something went for such an inflated price.  I’ve attended slow auctions where stuff went for peanuts because the buyers weren’t there, no one knew what it was or it was badly described or labeled (and I’d be lying to say I haven’t benefited from it).  On the other hand, I’ve seen buyers in a complete red mist frenzy, frantically bidding against each other to end up paying more than the new price 

 

I also know someone who learned the very useful lesson of ‘don’t bid whilst pissed’ when he became the proud owner of a stuffed shrew in a glass case for a highly inflated price (he wouldn’t tell me the actual price).  Turned out the decimal point hadn’t been in the right place.

 

Owain

[andyman7]

The situation with the just-released centenary Hornby R3819 'Dublo' Duchess has exposed pretty much all of the characteristics illustrated above:

 

a) manufacturer announces a Limited Edition and underestimates potential demand - whatever people think, this is impossible to eliminate in every case in a world of batch production

b) as distribution approaches it becomes apparent that there is no 'float' at all in the quantity available to cover for defective items, misunderstandings in dealer orders etc - some people with pre-orders find that these will not be honoured - at this stage there is understandable disappointment accompanied by  various degrees of outrage/conspiracy theories/doom-laden comments

c) some dealers and individuals will realise that they are now in a market situation whereby their stock or purchase can be turned at an immediate profit, with ebay being the favoured outlet - at this point the mob turns on the mysterious cult of the 'carpetbaggers', those associates of the illuminati and other dark forces that somehow bought up all the stocks of the item in question for no other purpose then to deprive the innocent modeller of their simple pleasure at 'issue' price

d) various convoluted and doomed-to-fail solutions are theorised about how the system can be changed so that only honest buyers are allowed to obtain such items -  the idea that someone should be able to sell an item at 'market' value must be expunged as an affront to human nature

e) those that did not succeed in getting the item and who do not panic will find that after a period of time they can indeed get hold of one at a more reasonable price (even if this is at a premium to the original sale price).

 

An interesting example of this was Bachmann's fully lined SE&CR C Class 31-460, issued around 8 years ago at at list price of £94.99.  This was in fact a ridiculously cheap price for what was an incredibly detailed and intricate livery application and demand wildly outstripped supply, and at one point they were making over £400 on ebay. There is a more recent issue now available 31-460A, which of course is subject to Bachmann's later price increases but is easily available from stock at around £195. Original 31-460 models also now fetch a similar amount. Now I am sure that there are some that may still nurse a resentment that they cannot obtain the model at the 2012 price, but in reality the froth has subsided and if you really want one of these models it can be obtained at a stable price without panic buying or wild market fluctuations.  

[Northmoor]

I've a listing on eBay at the moment, a small job lot of mostly common items but at least one item, I have never noticed anywhere (although they were probably sold in reasonable numbers).  My listing included the words Some Rare within the title.  Someone obviously took exception to this as within an hour of the listing starting, they'd messaged me to say none were rare.  I'm not sure what they expect me to say in reply, or do they want me to say I'm terribly sorry and reduce the price.....?