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mikesndbs

S&DJR connections with the GWR

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Hi

 

Did the S&DJR have a direct link to allow freight to move between the S&DJR and Exeter please?

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The thing about the S&D is that it seems to have been deliberately planned  not to connect with the GWR.

The main line crossed GWR lines at Bath, Midford, Radstock, Shepton Mallet and Bruton and made no connection in any of those places.

 

 

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OK thanks all, so there can be no justification for a S&D 7F working freight to Exeter then?

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, mikesndbs said:

OK thanks all, so there can be no justification for a S&D 7F working freight to Exeter then?

None at all as far as I'm aware.  The 7Fs were sometimes seen north of Bath on the MR lines - I'm not sure if they got to Barrow Rd.

I think the GW and S&D yards at Radstock connected via some sidings, perhaps via the very low bridge. Certainly no through connection at Radstock, perhaps until the very final days before closure(?). The only rail connections to anything else were at both ends and, in a inconvenient way, at Templecombe (with LSWR / SR).

Edited by H2O
Typo & 7F detail.

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Posted (edited)

The S&D JtR only exchanged traffic with the GWR  at Wells (only when specially arranged by Control) and at Highbridge.  The latter had regular Instructions for the manner in which exchange traffic was to be worked and the layout was designed for exchange of traffic.  There were no procedures for exchange of traffic at Radstock but only for the connecting siding to be used to enable access to collieries however BR put in a connection to enable access to a remaining colliery from the ex GWR route around the time the S&DJtR was closed.

Edited by The Stationmaster
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Posted (edited)

I doubt freight for the far-west originating on the S&DJR or north of it on MR connected routes would need to involve the GWR unless it was to/from a GW only point west of Exeter. As the S&DJR was fully connected to the ex-LSWR main line to Exeter at Templecombe, and the LSWR was part of the S&D's Joint operating group,  that would logically be the route freight took to/from Exeter and beyond. Can anyone confirm this?

 

Perhaps a better question is how was freight traffic on to the S&DJR originating at GWR stations west of Exeter routed as they would equally want to minimise mileages before it left their own network and passed onto either the LSWR or MR lines. (Highbridge and/or Wells? as per earlier responders answer)

 

Edited by john new
Amplified answer - thought of an extra point

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Posted (edited)

Thanks again all of you.

 

I read that milk trains from the S&D were combined into trains to London, so I was wondering how and where this happened?

 

At one time the Yeovil Town pilot engine (a K10) started its morning duty with a trip out to Chard Jn and Seaton Jn, collect the full tanks and take them as far as Templecombe, to join loads coming from the S&D. From then the train engine would have been any A class loco, ideally an S15 or WC

Edited by mikesndbs
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1 hour ago, H2O said:

None at all as far as I'm aware.  The 7Fs were sometimes seen north of Bath on the MR lines - I'm not sure if they got to Barrow Rd.

 

I've seen it stated that 7Fs reached Avonmouth although I've never seen this in a photograph. They would have run via the Kingswood Junction - Ashley Hill Junction link so they would not have passed Barrow Road, but would have been on a GWR/MR joint line once past Ashley Hill.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, H2O said:

None at all as far as I'm aware.  The 7Fs were sometimes seen north of Bath on the MR lines - I'm not sure if they got to Barrow Rd.

I think the GW and S&D yards at Radstock connected via some sidings, perhaps via the very low bridge. Certainly no through connection at Radstock, perhaps until the very final days before closure(?). The only rail connections to anything else were at both ends and, in a inconvenient way, at Templecombe (with LSWR / SR).

The only proper connection at Radstock was put in after closure of the S&D to allow the colliery at Writhlington to be served. 

Edited by andyman7
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2 hours ago, H2O said:

None at all as far as I'm aware.  The 7Fs were sometimes seen north of Bath on the MR lines - I'm not sure if they got to Barrow Rd.


7Fs got as far as Gloucester. Here’s one at Barnwood shed:


https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8468888442
 

There’s also a picture in Steam Days for March 2001 of 53806 on the ‘High Orchard branch’ at Gloucester, and the caption implies that they weren’t unknown, though rare, in Gloucester.

 

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1 hour ago, pH said:


7Fs got as far as Gloucester. Here’s one at Barnwood shed:


https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8468888442
 

There’s also a picture in Steam Days for March 2001 of 53806 on the ‘High Orchard branch’ at Gloucester, and the caption implies that they weren’t unknown, though rare, in Gloucester.

 

 

Hmm a glimmer of hope and we have that account of milk flows from the S&D to the GW train bound for London, given the other comments I don't see how but maybe there was a link?

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Posted (edited)

I found this interesting snippet here https://capturehighbridge.wordpress.com/industry/somerset-and-dorset-railway/

 

Regular milk traffic from the Wilts United Milk Factory at Bason Bridge was one of the Somerset & Dorset Joint Railways best customers.  The factory had two connections to the main line, one where the milk tanks were loaded or emptied, the other ran the full length of the factory and was used for incoming coal, sugar and tinplate (for making the tins); outgoing loads were boxes of condensed milk.  The factory had three goods trains and one milk train each day, the service commenced in 1909 and was terminated in about 1970.

 

It doesn't state whether the milk factory traffic was worked via Templecombe or via Highbridge. Of course after 1966 Highbridge was the only option, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Western Region hadn't switched from Templecombe to Highbridge at an earlier date.

 

Edited by Andy Kirkham

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Posted (edited)

When I worked at Westbury, one of the “old boys” who worked in BR in steam days was a frequent visitor and we discussed the S&D  on many occasions.  He said that there was a fair amount of animosity between GWR and LMS, so I assume the MR as well.

 

As the S&D started in the south coast and it’s intention was connect the south coast with the Bristol Channel and the route up to Bath was merely an extension, albeit more busier.  As it was primarily a north/south route and had no real desire to connect with the GWR.  As often quoted, the animosity between the two regions continued, so when the western region was given control of the S&D, it’s said that the WR were quick to shut the system down but I think the inevitable was close at hand.

 

I’m not saying it’s correct but given the large amount written, it can’t be to far off but then as they say, why let the truth get in the way of a great story :P:P

Edited by jools1959
Typo

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6 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

When I worked at Westbury, one of the “old boys” who worked in BR in steam days was a frequent visitor and we discussed the S&D  on many occasions.  He said that there was a fair amount of animosity between GWR and LMS, so I assume the MR as well.

 

As the S&D started in the south coast and it’s intention was connect the south coast with the Bristol Channel and the route up to Bath was merely an extension, albeit more busier.  As it was primarily a north/south route and had no real desire to connect with the GWR.  As often quoted, the animosity between the two regions continued, so when the western region was given control of the S&D, it’s said that the WR were quick to shut the system down but I think the inevitable was close at hand.

 

I’m not saying it’s correct but given the large amount written, it can’t be to far off but then as they say, why let the truth get in the way of a great story :P:P

There were a number of former S&DJt staff working in the Westbury area having opted to go to the Western on redundancy but only one of them had any sort of hatred (for thats's exactly what it was) for the Western so if you got anywhere near the diesel depot you could get a lot of that from him.  The strange thing about it was that his father had been a GWR Station Master ;)

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I think I was reading somewhere  recently that the original act of P contained a requirement  (or allowed) a spur between the S & D and the GWR at Wincanton/Bruton,   but it was of course never built.  

More's the pity,  it might actually have enabled some more cross country traffic to have been built up  (and would make a great model.......)  :D

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30 minutes ago, jointline said:

I think I was reading somewhere  recently that the original act of P contained a requirement  (or allowed) a spur between the S & D and the GWR at Wincanton/Bruton,   but it was of course never built.  

More's the pity,  it might actually have enabled some more cross country traffic to have been built up  (and would make a great model.......)  :D

Rule one!

 

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Posted (edited)

https://maps.nls.uk/view/106020887

I believe the connection to the GWR was under the road bridge on the map. IIRC a single slip onto the GWR up mainline.

Cheers

EDIT: I can't see a connection between the two railways on this map although they were very close

https://maps.nls.uk/view/106021952

Wasn't the S&D Jnt line to Wells taken out in the early fifties?

IIRC the animosity between the two railways started when the S&D converted to standard gauge and the two railways became fierce competitors. That was before the line was joint MR/LSW.

I'm sure it's all in Robin Atthill's book.

Edited by PenrithBeacon
A few more words
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OK so, were have we arrived at, was this possible or not and if not what was the flow of milk traffic to London from the S&D mentioned? 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, mikesndbs said:

OK so, were have we arrived at, was this possible or not and if not what was the flow of milk traffic to London from the S&D mentioned? 

Possibly from the Bailey Gate dairy on the southern (ex-Dorset Central) leg, i.e.south of Templecombe. Wikipedia has some notes and extra references here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bailey_Gate_railway_station

 

Just to be picky, and written tongue in cheek, the Stockton & Darlington (S&D) did not reach Dorset that was the S&DJR!

 

Edited by john new
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, PenrithBeacon said:

IIRC the animosity between the two railways started when the S&D converted to standard gauge and the two railways became fierce competitors. That was before the line was joint MR/LSW.

I'm sure it's all in Robin Atthill's book.

Was the S&D ever Broad Gauge?

Some of the Somerset Central pre S&D was, but most of that was (logically) converted to mixed at the formation of the S&D in 1862, IIRC the Dorset Central part was always standard gauge.

Edited by melmerby
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14 minutes ago, john new said:

 

Just to be picky, and written tongue in cheek, the Stockton & Darlington (S&D) did not reach Dorset that was the S&DJR!

 

Being even more picky the S&DJR was formed in 1876, prior to that (from 1862) it was the S&D:)

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20 hours ago, mikesndbs said:

I read that milk trains from the S&D were combined into trains to London, so I was wondering how and where this happened?

 

Usually this happened at Templecombe. The SR ran milk trains from a couple of starting points including Torrington and Yeovil, both of which normally stopped at Templecombe to pick up tanks. In times of peak production, extra tanks would sometimes be attached to the following service from Sidmouth Junction. Milk handling on the Southern is a bit of a complex subject as the SR was particularly fond of attaching milk tanks to the rear of passenger services where possible. This meant that tanks would often only be formed into dedicated trains at Templecombe, Yeovil or even Salisbury for the final run into London. The SR seemed to prefer efficiency over simplicity and it was not uncommon for tanks to be attached to multiple trains as they made their way towards London.

 

All this started to change when the WR took over the S&D as well as the SR lines west of Exeter.

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10 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Was the S&D ever Broad Gauge?

Some of the Somerset Central pre S&D was, but most of that was (logically) converted to mixed at the formation of the S&D in 1862, IIRC the Dorset Central part was always standard gauge.

Yes this is true in part, the Somerset Central was BG and the DVR was SG. It was the conversion and the subsequent sale to the MR/LSWR that caused the animosity, which seems to have been carried on to extreme length by some staff.

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